Is a signature required on an antique firearm? thanks!

Signature on what? If you mean the 4473, you don't need one on pre-1898. But try to explain that to an FFL your gun's been shipped to..Geo

Some states may require proof of age for a pre-1899 Antique Firearm, but they are not required to be transferred by an FFL under current Federal law. As Geo is saying, there are quite a few FFL holders who don't seem to wish to know the law when it comes to handling Antiques. Since guns built prior to 1899 are not even considered firearms in the legal sense of the word, they are not even supposed to be entered into the FFL's bound ledger book.

https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regulations/laws-alcohol-tobacco-firearms-and-explosives

Why would a pre 1898 gun be shipped to an FFL? It is not required by law and adds quite a bit to the cost of the purchase.

Because the government has frightened people so that uninformed sellers think they have to. I had a gun shipped to a particularly ornery gunshop here last week because the seller refused to ship direct.

The gun was a Wilkes-Barre which went out of business in 1895. Once the gunshop had it in hand they refused to let me have it without filling out a 4473 and paying them a transfer fee. Aggravating!...Geo

Question for any dealers here: If you are on the receiving end of a pre-1898 gun, are you required to log it in, then log it out as a transfer and require a 4473 from the buyer?

No. They aren't supposed to be on anyone's books as a firearm. But... Depends on who gets involved. I bought a pre 98 gun from Bass Pro in Denver, even with my FFL and explaining the law to them they about had a cow. If it hadn't been a nice gun at a good price I would have told them to stick it.

If they are logged in, they are logged in as an “antique” under type of firearm. And logged out to the individual that is over 18 and a copy of photo ID is retained.

I think the main issue with many FFLs that dont acknowledge antiques is their unwillingness to verify that they are in fact antiques. Or they dont want to have the “burden” of needing to prove something was an antique after the fact.

For any matter regarding transfers a simple phone call to your local BATF office will provide you with any information you might need. I've found the office in Sacramento to be very easy to deal with and ready to help, quite contrary to what I had expected.

just a thot

I once had a pre -1898 damascus I. Hollis shipped directly to me from Australia. Gunshop owner there said it was fine. It came to my local post office, where I picked it up. It was in an unmarked cardboard box.

Was that legal?

SRH

Geo needs to find a local FFL who understands the law and isn't a money grubbing dick. Gunbroker has a nationwide list of FFL dealers who will do transfers, and there were several in my area I didn't even know of, along with a wide range of prices for the exact same firearms transfer service and Instant Check if necessary. I have had several instances where an internet seller insisted upon shipping the gun to an FFL for transfer even when I can prove it is Antique. I was present when my dealer called the BATF Field Office and was informed that Antiques do not require transfer and should not be entered into his Bound Ledger Book. In these cases, my FFL accepts delivery for me and simply hands me the gun after I show him that it indeed a pre-1899 gun. He never wants any money for accepting the package, but I always tip him something as a goodwill gesture.

Stan,

You asked if it was legal. I JUST sold a pre-1899 gun, so this is all refreshed again for me.

The answer is YES according to the ATF, but NO according to the USPS. I dunno if that makes it "illegal" or simply in violation of USPS "policy"...and whether those two things are the same or not. Here's why:

1. The USPS has their own definition of what an antique is...and the way I read it, it means only muzzle-loaders. (https://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52c4_008.htm)

2. As of late 2011, all long guns must be sent via Priority EXPRESS only. (https://about.usps.com/postal-bulletin/2011/pb22321/html/updt_001.htm)

*Note section 12.2, subsection "a"

This was baffling to me...as Priority Express makes the cost of shipping a gun get to $100+ in some cases.

3. You live in Georgia, so your state regs are probably friendly. But in NY State they have a similar definition to the USPS as to what constitutes an "antique." It CANNOT fire modern ammunition. As such one can be technically IN compliance with ATF, while NOT according to state law.

I have received a different interpretation from the NY State every time I called. Sometimes they say NY State rez can only SHIP without FFL...other times they say NO transaction in or out bound without FFL unless the gun is basically a pre-1899 muzzle loader.

And the USPS office manager I spoke to locally was similarly clear as mud. She seemed to be visably uncomfortable even saying the word "firearm" aloud, as we discussed.

I left there practically hoping the nation's electric grid would go out for 3 minths. (Hopefully, only sane people would survive.)

In all seriousness...how many people on this forum even knew that the USPS says you must ship your pre-1899 shotgun both as Registered Mail, and via Priority Express class service?

NDG

So I shipped UPS Ground, and to an FFL.

The gun is a pre-1899 SXS with twist barrels.

And the C&R buyer was not happy with having to pay a local FFL.

We both lamented the idiocy of the situation.

NDG

Nudge, I don't agree if you look at the regulation that you stated, it say's, Express mail, Registered Mail or Insured over $200 so that a signature is required.

USPS regs.

12.2 Rifles and Shotguns

[Revise renumbered 12.2 as follows:]

Except under 12.1.1d and 12.1.2, unloaded rifles and shot­guns are mailable. Mailers must comply with the rules and regulations under 27 CFR, Part 478, as well as state and local laws. The mailer may be required by the USPS to establish, by opening the parcel or by written certification, that the rifle or shotgun is unloaded and not ineligible for mailing under 12.1.1d. The following conditions also apply:

"a. Subject to state, territory, or district regulations, rifles and shotguns may be mailed without restriction when sent within the same state of mailing. These items must bear a “Return Service Requested” endorsement, and must be sent by Express Mail (“signature required” must be used at delivery) or Registered Mail, or must in­clude either insured mail service (for more than $200) requiring a signature at delivered."

So I think USPS just wants to make sure that the package is signed for and not just dropped on the porch of a house. At least that's the way I read it.

Interesting. Thanks for the replies.

SRH

Probably a customs violation...Geo

It wasn't a custom, Geo. Just a simple BLNE.

SRH

Oh, well in that case there'd probably be no problem...Geo

Stan,
Completely legal at the time and still legal under our laws. What has changed is the Australian and New Zealand post will no longer ship any guns, antique or modern, via the postal service.
Steve

In times past I had antique guns shipped directly from the UK to me by mail multiple times. Cost about $55.00 to do it. They no longer ship that way at any price I am told. I had limited paperwork on them but very little was required. You had to be able to document that they were pre- 1898 built.

I bought four guns which had been imported from The UK without any paperwork at all. Just came over in a container labeled as used household goods and antiques. Luck would have it that they all were pre 1898 so no real crime was committed. They had paid a import duty on the declared value for antiques which the guns were. Would not like to try that in today’s anti gun climate. But I just bought them from the antique dealer who opened the container and found them and then panicked. His agent bought an entire country house estate and packed all the decent stuff and shipped it to the US. The guns were part of the decent stuff.

My only mistake was selling the two double rifles quickly for what I felt was a nice profit. Last time I saw the Boswell the asking price for as 20K more than what I sold it for. Never saw the other gun on the web but I know it sold at least once since then as the buyer I sold it to has long since passed.

Last time I was asked what was in the box I said a metal pipe and a chunk of wood. The USPS clerk just smiled. Now that was in small town Montana where the folks are mighty friendly.

no customs = smuggling...Geo

ALWAYS check your local laws too. My State does NOT recognize The Gun control act of 1968 and I am required to transfer all guns, antiques, muzzle-loaders, etc....

John Mann shipped Sterly marked shotgun on the slip, delivered Fedex to my door, no issues.

Things do get by. Doesn't change the rules...Geo

Are ya feelin lucky; well are ya?

Stan you scoundrel: If nothing else, you probably beat US Customs out of a few $ import duty.

Ha!, I was a newbie to it all. The guy on the other end of the phone line, at McDonald's Gunshop, sure sounded like he knew what he was doing. So.................I went along.

SRH

Well, pre 1898 is pre 1898. The law is the law. I bought what looks to be a hand-made double 12 bore hammer gun in Quetta in 2008. Islamic inscriptions written on the brass hoops attaching the barrel to the forearm. Separated the parts into two pieces of luggage and carried them back to the USA, no questions asked.

What I'd like to do now is find an 1891 16ga Reilly hammergun in UK and do the same thing...or maybe better, go down to Saint-Etienne, find something like this...and just bring it back in the suitcase.

I bought my first sxs, an Ithaca SKB Model 150, at the US Navy base in Rota, Spain in 1972. When I returned to the States, I made the mistake of following the law and shipped it back to a gun shop in my hometown. It got stopped by Customs in NY. I managed to liberate it without paying a storage fee, but it took some effort. Back then, no one really knew the ins and outs of the law. My coworker the vice consul in the embassy told me I should have just shipped it home in my household goods.

They do not do the pre-1898 thing in the UK. A gun is a gun and you need a certificate to take possession if it shoots anything but "obsolete" ammo. a 16 ga 2&1/2" center fire cartridge gun no matter the age is not obsolete in the UK.

Nothing wrong at all in looking for the most cost effective way to get the gun you. Best to know the law though.

Soldiers are infamous for bringing back stuff with personal belongings. I had an uncle who somehow liberated a machine gun in the Korean 'Conflict'. After he died my aunt found the appropriate govt. agency and turned it in...Geo

There used to be an old man who lived about a mile and a half from me, a very small acreage farmer, who had a little country store. Not much in it, really understocked, but he did keep cold drinks and a few snacks. The most notable thing he had in there was a machine gun on a tripod, sitting on a counter and pointed at the front door. I have no idea what happened to that thing, as he was not exactly a "friend of the family". As my Grandaddy told it to me, when he bought the farm and house I live in/on, in 1919, this fellow was living in this house, as sort of a self appointed caretaker. When he got word that Grandaddy had bought the place he sent word to him that if he set foot on the place he would "leave him in his tracks". Grandaddy took a horse and buggy to the county seat, Waynesboro, to see the sheriff about it and told him the deal. Sheriff handed my grandaddy his personal sidearm and said to him "You can handle it, can't you?". Grandaddy took his pistol and went on to Augusta and bought another revolver, a Colt. When he got back to this farm that he had bought he approached the man, who was in the mule lot. According to Grandaddy, he told the man "I got the message you sent me. I bought this place, and me and my wife are going to move into this house and farm here. I aim to settle this, this day. If you want to "shoot it out", I brought two pistols. If you want to "cut it out", I brought two knives. If you want to settle it with our fists, well, that's the other option, but we're gonna settle it now. Fellow said, "Fists", to which Grandaddy replied "In the middle of the public road", and started towards the dirt road in front of the house. They got about halfway and the squatter said "No, you bought it ...........I guess I'll move".

That guy's granddaughter lives in the house he died in, close to me, and is a flaming liberal. Hates Trump. The apple usually doesn't fall far from the tree.

SRH

Exactly! Messin' with the Feds or taking a chance on not being noticed seems like a way bad idea in the 21st Century. So, a few extra $ to avoid a potential big $/big time hassle? Seems like an easy choice to me.

I purchased a Francotte damascus gun from a person in Florida over the internet. He was a grandson of the original owner and knew nothing about guns. He insisted that the gun be shipped by a dealer to a dealer (me). I entered the shipment in my log book and then realized that the gun was made in 1891.

I later called the local ATF field office to ask about whether I would be required to record a sale in my log book. The field agent said that the gun, although pre-188, was not an antique because it could fire modern ammunition!

At this point I will likely have a buyer complete a Form 4473 and call NICS on the sale, just to avoid a hassle later from ATF.

It would be nice if you could get a straight answer out of those buzzards!...Geo

Little Creek,
I believe the local ATF agent misread the law. A pre 1899 gun is an antique regardless, but a replica of a pre 1899 gun must fire ammo not available in normal trade channels, or not fire fixed ammo.
Mike

Thats the way the ATF states it as well.
ATF :

ATF Newsletter


As defined in section 921(a)(16) of Title 18, U.S.C.
the term “antique firearm” means –
(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a
matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or
similar type of ignition system)
manufactured in or before 1898; or
(B)any replica of any firearm described in
subparagraph (A) if such replica —
(i)
is not designed or redesigned for using
rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed
ammunition, or
(ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire
As defined in section 921(a)(16) of Title 18, U.S.C.
the term “antique firearm” means –
(A)
any firearm (including any firearm with a
matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or
similar type of ignition system)
manufactured in or before 1898; or
(B)
any replica of any firearm described in
subparagraph (A) if such replica —
(i)
is not designed or redesigned for using
rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed
ammunition, or
(ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire