I picked up a couple older American SxS's knowing full well they had some extra stock drop. I haven't spent any time with them at the range yet, but they actually come up pretty well for me. One was listed as 2 3/4" drop at heel and the other 3". If I cheek hard I sink under the sight plane, but with just solid but not "bear down" pressure it doesn't seem too bad. I'm right there at the bead with the 3" drop, and see a little rib with the 2 3/4" drop. Just curious if others can shoot 2 3/4 - 3" drop guns decently. It would sure be nice not to think about getting them bent. I'll add that I'm typically fine with 1 1/2 x 2 1/2" guns.

Sure. Just crawl the stock like these guys at The Southern L.C. Smith - Parker Hammer Gun Challenge.

Dr John Truitt



Craig Bennett



The "heads up" vintage mount is mostly mythology
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1c7UkkNyMTZ9NAztILpzjSLKvgIneAw5i7eqkZ3d3Eno/preview

I'm with you, Dave. I buy a new gun, I like about 1 1/2 x 2 1/2. I own two Parkers both have 3" of drop. I shoot them just as well as the others if not better. Practice makes one able to quickly get the right sight picture, I am guessing.

Good stuff, Drew. I’ll read through it tonight.

Alder adder, thanks. I’ve never done well with high-combed guns.

I can shoot them OK in controlled situations. I am not "calm, cool, or collect" when a grouse flushes though. In my excitement I tend to bring the gun up hard and my head down hard. This causes me to loose sight of the bird, lift my head, to high, then miss the bird. The high combed stocks keep my eye were it should be.

Doc Truitt’s Parker has about a 1 3/8” parallel comb.

Good advise above, only thing to add is you have to drill mounting a low comb. It’s diffrent. I don’t think about mounts in a gun that fits & rarely pre mount. Low comb gun put it up off the target couple of times before shooting and frequently pre mount.

Be much better to shoot one gun or all the same fit. But no fun there.

Boats

3”drop....yuk. Bring a shotgun to the face is the proper way to shoot. Turkey necking doesn’t cut it. Lends self to poor shooting.

A high comb stock tends to shoot a little high, a built in lead for rising birds.

http://www.gamaliel.com/prodcat/cheek-pads-stock-adjustments.asp

For big drops, I use these

https://www.cabelas.com/product/Triple-K-Leather-Cheek-Pad/706669.uts

And I change out their lacing with old braided fly line.

Mike

Learning to shoot a gun with 3" of drop just takes practice. I am talking about bird hunting. But I once shot an eight pound 3" DAH Parker 12 gauge at an ATA shoot and managed to score a 97. Not competitive but the 3" DAH gun is very shootable - with practice.

I was fifty before I started shooting two-trigger guns. Took a lot practice to learn how to use those.

The comb just goes on a different part of my face when I shoot a 3" DAH gun. When properly mounted the rib looks just like it does on 2" DAH gun, by the way.

I shoot best with more drop than is popular these days. Three inches at heel is fine as long as the comb is about 1 5/8" to 1 3/4". My shooting style is a bit different since I only lightly make cheek contact with the comb. Anchor point seems to be about even with my teeth. Head up and both eyes wide open. It's a very relaxed mount. My two hunting buds who I often join in pursuit of wild bobwhite quail also have independently evolved a similar mount. It makes for a very fast mount and shot, especially when terrain or brush demand a quick shot or none at all. And a heads up position allows us to maintain awareness of surroundings better than the modern style. The old time American gun makers produced what the public wanted for our walked up game shooting and that was more drop.

Heads up or down is not something to be argued about. Neither style fits everyone, nor should it. It just works for us and our hunting conditions. And in the evening when the guns are cased and the dogs fed I've always got more birds to clean than I want. Life is good.

PS: for those of you who have never had the joy of meeting a truly wild bobwhite on his home turf the only way I can describe their explosive flush is to suggest you imagine a bottle rocket unexpectantly firing nearby in heavy grass and brush and you have no idea where it's gonna go. And those little stubby wings have him at what appears to be warp speed in about three feet. If that doesn't rattle you then imagine a covey flush of about 15 of the rascals noisily exploding right under your feet and heading towards every compass point. Oh, they're good at what they do!

People tell me I usually shoot birds with my head up anyway, so my 3" drop guns are fine with me...Geo

There is a top ten skeet shooter who NEVER cheeks the gun. It can work but is tough for most people to learn.

bill

I don't think the stocks with big drops were ever meant to be cheeked. The thread here talks about 3" drops, but there are a lot of guns with even more than that - some guns just can't be crawled. Pictures of turn-of-century shooters show them pointing the guns, heads held high.

It can be done competently. I used to shoot skeet with an old guy who shot that way, head high. Clean air between his cheek and the wood. He just pointed the gun, a fine demonstration of eye-hand co-ordination. It was kind of disturbing to watch, but he was an outstanding shooter. He was v knowledgeable, modest, and had a good sense of humor. Some of the things he said hinted that he might have been ex-AMU from back in the sixties.

The deadliest dove gun I've ever owned owned was a Fox A-grade 12 bore with 3" of dah with just a little less at the comb. I miss that gun, I should've held onto it for a bit longer. It wasn't difficult for me to shoot well, even with those dimensions being way off from my norm. Granted, I never used it for flushing birds, it was mainly a pass shooting/decoying bird gun.

After hunting chukars & Huns for awhile now, bobwhites to me look like jack black trying to fly. They're zippy, but probably not moving as fast as they seem. A covey of anything getting up around your feet is somewhat nerve racking, but I have to say I've shot more doubles bobwhite hunting than I have any other gamebird.

Most of the turn-of-the-century images are not live action, and show shooters in the "ready position"

Donald Mackintosh of Australia, winner of the Grand Prix de Centenaire exhibition at the 1900 Paris Olympics



Charles Grimm, of Clear Lake, Iowa won the Live Bird Tournament at the 1892 Chicago World's Fair and held the "Cast Iron" medal in 1897. He used a L.C. Smith in 1896-1899 and was second to Tom Marshall at the 1899 GAH. Obviously a studio image



Live action in the snow at the DuPont Trapshooting Club; leaning well forward, neck extended and firmly cheeked



Nemours Club for Women



I believe this is Capt. A.W. "Blue Rock" Money but could be his son Noel. Note the very long LOP



Bird shooting in the 1906 Forest & Stream



Then again, whatever works

"Better Trap Shooting", Lawrence B. Smith, New York State Champion 1930 & 1931



Charles W. Billings at the New York AC, Travers Island, 1912. Captain of Gold Medal 1912 Olympic team.

Any gun fitter would likely 'splain that he's cramped with a too short stock and too much drop

Drew, every one of the photos you posted are of shooters who are either shooting clays or pigeons with premounted guns. Has nothing to do with the real world walk-em-up bird shooting we are talking about.

Again, there is absolutely no "right" or "wrong" way to mount a shotgun, within limits. Very similar to golf--everyone has their own style and thats great as long as it works for them. I think I'd hate shotgun shooting if I had to shoot a gun some world renowned expert said fit me. It'd probably have a 15" LOP and no more than 2 1/4" drop. As it is I'm sitting in my rocking chair with a shotgun leaning against the wall with a 14" pull and 3" drop--and having to spend all evening cleaning birds.

1906 Forest & Stream posted above



Sept. 12, 1908 Forest & Stream, "Prairie Chicken Shooting in Kansas", also in American Game-bird Shooting by George Bird Grinnell, 1910



Turn-of-the-century Live Bird and Inanimate Target shooters did not, for the most part, pre-mount, and "low gun" or "ready position" was required in Olympic inanimate target competition in 1908 and beyond.
Live action (the first minute) from the 1912 Stockholm Olympics is here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl...t-ts=1422579428

“there is absolutely no ‘right’ or ‘wrong’ way to mount a shotgun, within limits”.....no disrespect meant, but what in the world does that mean, Joe? within limits.....huh??

Proper pitch will help more than many realize. When the pitch is correct and the toe and heel have a solid foundation you don't need your cheekbone to complete the gun mount.

wort: I've seen guys shoot 25 from the hip on the skeet field.
A bud had a quail flush in front of him, caught the butt of his double on his vest, went ahead and shot and dropped the bird.

The rest of us mortals need some tactile reference that communicates with our muscle memory that our right (if a righty) eye is where it need to be in relation to the plane of the barrels.

"American Shooter" 1917



A fairly accomplished shooter Ignore the tape; we don't even want to go there



And BTW: the LOP on her non-pre-mount international skeet gun is waaay too long



This doesn't work so good and his smiling instructor should be paying better attention

May I axx.......... if you have no cheeking of the stock, is it not difficult to do it the same way every time? Many of us have had hip shooting successes .......... I killed six doves straight from the hip once............ but I'd never be able to shoot in the 90s on a sporting clays course from the hip. The gun mount is not the only thing that has to be done right to kill the bird. Everything has to be done right.

SRH

25 years ago I shot a Fox Sterlingworth with a 3in DoH for multiple duck season often running 6 or more ducks in a row

Drew, I'm sure you were speaking tongue in cheek about the "Girl" whose stock was way too long. I find her mounting to be uncomfortable to look at, but she has medals from about six straight Olympics. Personally, I use what gun is at my shoulder at any given time, and I don't do so badly. I have shot in competition for medals and money since I was fifteen years old. I have a sixty five year shotgun collection and have never had one bent or otherwise modified. I have not had bores modified on one either. Two years ago, I bought a high condition Purdey pigeon gun with the money I didn't spend on ruining the bores and chokes of my other guns.

Sorry I wasn't more clear. I didn't mean to say you don't use your cheek at all, but that with the proper pitch on your gun you aren't trying to hold the gun inline with your eye with your cheek. Pitch and drop at comb work together to help align the gun. I am also not saying proper comb height is not important. I am only saying, in addressing the original posters question, that if a gun has your correct pitch that can help you shoot a gun with a 1/2 inch too much drop. I think I read what he was asking correctly? I also bow to expertise on the subject as well.

In general I've always done better with a little more drop than with a gun where I can see much if any rib at my crawliest point, and the joe average 1.5 x 2.5 works. So when I picked up an LC Smith with 2 3/4" of DAH and a Fox with 3" of drop I was surprised. My initial reaction was, "I can shoot these!" That will soon be proven or disproven as winter is finally easing up here.

Don't "learn' how to shoot it, restock the damn thing.

They're worth it.

Just came upon Hints on Shooting and Hunting Game; Life Experience of Frederick H. Erb, Jr.

He demonstrates the low gun style of Live Bird shooting "20 years ago" (written in 1904) contrasted with the post-1900 pre-mounted position
https://archive.org/stream/howtotraindogsca00erbf#page/46/mode/2up



And we were, and are, all different. Ready positions at the 1896 GAH at Live Birds; some standing straight, some with an exaggerated forward lean, most in-between



What most certainly will NOT work is to try to alternate between doubles with significantly different dimensions. Pick a mount style, and dimensions that work for you, and stick with them.
And BTW: back in my younger days I would stop shooting trap at least 2 mths before bird season and only shoot low gun skeet, with my (one) quail and pheasant gun.

All my guns have 2 1/4 DAC and 3" DAH. If they weren't that way when I got them, I bent them so they were. As Joe said, shooting heads up is just a different style maybe not for everyone. Weight more even between the feet so you're not leaning forward with your head stuck out like a turtle. Easier on the neck muscles, you're looking out of the center of your eyes, and you don't use the excuse " I lifted my head ". It's already up. Give me a Bud Lite, it don't get no better.

I certainly will not spend the money to "Re-Stock" any of my older doubles with a good original stock just because they have a bit more drop than a modern gun. If you don't like the configuration of older guns then "Buy Modern" & leave the older ones to us who enjoy them AS IS.

Unfortunately undated image, and could be posed but possibly "live action". Gun appears to be a Winchester Model of 1887 or 1901. Mount, head position and stance looks like many of us shooting a rabbit on the Sporting Clays course. He may even be pointing his forward hand "pointer". Need to bend the knees a bit though



What worked then, works today

Well, I didn't say use the old stock as firewood. Keep it and put it back on, if you decide to sell it.

Despite the additional 8 inches of snow that fell overnight I will soon be seeing how 2 3/4" and 3 " of drop work out for me. My best guess is that I'll shoot these two guns just fine as they are. They feel quite amazing. Much better than I expected, and certainly better than too-high-combed guns which are akin to driving a car on a windy road with your head through the sun roof.

Get one or two of these; http://www.gamaliel.com/kickeezrecoilpads/kick_eez_cheek_eez_pad_5x6x316.asp

2 73/4--3" drop is all I ever do shoot or own...

Finding a gun with enough heel drop was the reason I started shooting the old guns to start with. My first was a Fox Sterlingworth with 1 3/4 - 3 drops at comb & heel. I have always found it strange that the modern writers complain about the old stock dimensions on the vintage guns, but somehow those hunters shooting those old guns managed to kill off most of the game in North America with them.

You guys that actually like 3” of drop at heel may have been born a 100 years too late?

Here's my take, and mantra, on stock drop .........it's a whole lot easier to shoot a stock with a little too much drop than it is a stock with too little drop. You can't force your cheek down on the stock enough to make a highly stocked gun shoot flat enough, but you can cheek a stock lightly to keep it from shooting too low. It's just a matter of adjustment, and for those who think that floating the bird is the answer to high stocked guns .............think again.

SRH

Look at the convert-a-stock pad system from Meadow Industries. I use these often on guns that have too much drop. The height of the comb is adjustable by the thickness of the spacer you put under the leather like pad that velcros to a velcro adhesive pad on either side of your stock. No need for bending, and the pads can easily be remove with a little fingernail polish remover; polish the stock with a little Tre-wax and you never know they were there if you decide to sell the gun. you can also add a little cast off if needed by placing the spacer under the leather like comb pad a little to the left.
http://www.meadowindustries.com/gunstocks.html#convert

I've been following this discussion with some interest because i have a habit of keeping my head too high on unexpected flushes of wild birds. So, perhaps 3" drops would be good for me, at least sometimes.

But this brings me to how do most people actually measure drop? To my way of thinking it is done from the centerline of the bores, but from a pragmatic point of view, I strongly doubt that is how it done in practice by an auction house or online dealer.

I would guess most listed guns with whatever drop at heel and comb are measured by putting a yard stick along the rib and measuring down from that. Is that the actual convention?

Thanks Drew.

Drew, Thanks for posting. What I find interesting is the fact that actual proportions were considered when combining the drop at comb as well as heel. I've seen so many that were considerably disproportionate.
Karl

Fred Gilbert (1865-1928) was one of the world’s best Live Bird and Inanimate Target shooters from 1895-1915. After he used a L.C. Smith to win the DuPont World’s Pigeon Shooting Championship in 1895 and the “E.C.” Inanimate Target Championship Cup in 1896, orders flooded Hunter Arms for the “Fred Gilbert Specifications”: drop at comb of 1 3/8 inches; at the heel, 2 inches; length from trigger to heel, 14 1/4 inches; trigger to toe 14 1/2 inches; and trigger to center of butt 14 inches; with a full pistol grip and 30-inch full choke barrels.

120 years ago and very similar to today's target gun dimensions + a bit more LOP as we've grown a bit; in height and around the middle

You don’t see all that many 100 yo English guns with 3” drop at heel (although I’ve seen a few)....it’s primarily the old American made guns with that much drop.

O.K, though I prefer a lot more drop than most people I found that these so called "modern" dimensions predate the breechloading era by a long way. I own a late double flint gun made by W.H. Wilson, London (probably made by Alexander Wilson, late ofJoseph Manton). Most likely made 1815-1825.

The stock measures:
Length of pull--14 1/4"
Drop at comb--1 5/8"
Drop at heel--2"
Weight--7 lbs 1 oz.
30" 16 gauge barrels
Balances 5 5/8" in front of trigger.

Remarkable to realize the double gun had reached its zenith of development 200 years ago!

I have a lot tougher time shooting 2" DAH than I do shooting 3" DAH.

That said, nobody fears me at the range with my Nitro, that is around 2 7/8ths DAH.
I get a real bird with it, here and there. But, I suck shooting clay targets with it.

Someone above posted a point about pitch, something I have found to be pretty important for me to have some kind of success when shooting. I prefer between 1" and 2" measured pitch, and if it sneaks out much beyond 2", the gun starts to kick too much.

Joe, I'd not be too intersted in a 16 gauge double at 7 lbs. My 12s are all around 6 lbs. These are hunting guns, not clay target guns.
If I am going to shoot 100 rounds of clays, I likely use a pumpgun.

Best,
Ted

Just a quick follow up. I finally got the Parker (2 7/8" drop) and the Fox (3" drop) to the range and I had no trouble hitting with either. The 30" Parker was one of the easiest shooting SxS's I've ever shot. I did have the butt of the Fox slip down on recoil a couple times, but that was the only negative.

Good work. I get in more trouble when I switch between guns with different stock dimensions.
But, I still do it. I think it was Gough Thomas who said own one gun and never even shoulder or touch someone else's gun.
I have a wife that those rules apply to. Not guns, so far, but, I can see the wisdom in it.

Best,
Ted

Put a piece of skateboard tape on the butt to keep it from slipping.

3" drop works for me...still hittin 18 out of 25...

It's pretty hard for me to shoot anything with a big drop because the stock has to be settled into my shoulder pocket while the bird is in the air. That takes time, leads to barrel checking, etc. Not good for clean kills.

Essentially it feels different.
Lots of squirming going on.

But then when you go pre-mount? NBD.

Pre-mount bears no resemblance to a dynamic style of shooting.

Heck, you could shoot 6" of drop if given enough time to squirm in behind it, and get your eye looking down the rib squarely.

If you practice with a modern gun to get pretty good, then grab a 3" dropper? Good luck.

I can shoot guns well with any amount of drop from about 2 1/2" DAH to 3" DAH. Most of my "modern guns" are in the 2 1/2" DAH range. One thing for certain........... for an all around hunting/sporting clays/skeet gun, the vast majority will shoot 3" DAH better than 2" DAH. Few people can get down on the comb hard enough, and consistently enough, to make a 2" DAH gun work for anything but trap or pigeons. And if it's a high stocked and a lightweight gun, it will often bruise the cheek. Many of the "modern" Italian doubles are stocked way too high, causing them to shoot high. My Perazzi and Beretta are exceptions to that.

Notice sometime how many shooters mount the gun and have 1" to 1 1/2" of the heel of the butt above the shoulder........... not even contacting it. That is because of too little drop. That is not a proper mount, and is the result of poor gunfit and/or a poor mount.

SRH

Stan, I probably wouldn't have said anything about this other than I was marveling over the 18/25 remark.

People are all different shapes and sizes. Every experienced shot probably has a bracketed range within which they'll shoot pretty consistently.

It's the moving back and forth between the two extremes that pauses me to examine what differences I feel. Definitely a whole lot going on during the mount when I pick up a 3" DAH shotgun.

Stan you nailed it with your last comment. Totally agree.

No argument from me. There's no substitute for a shotgun that fits. I simply proved to myself that I can shoot these lower-combed guns decently, running the first stations with both and generally hitting well with them. I shot neither as well as a Beretta I own that fits perfectly, but I didn't go 0/10 like I did with a friends high-combed FAIR SxS the other day! Never could shoot high-combed guns with any sense of control or confidence.

That said, the 3" drop on the Fox was pushing it, and I'd do better with a slight up bend. The Parker was easy and 2 7/8" drop on that gun felt natural and precise on the longer targets. The extra drop on the Parker betrayed me a little on an in-your-face chandelle where there was zero time to adjust, but the gun shoots plenty well enough for fun clays. I'm actually quite taken by how well this 30" VH 16 with FxF chokes performs.

I’ve pretty much given up shooting guns with 3” of DAH. Lord knows I tried. Over the years I owned a Parker VH, an 1878 Colt hammer gun, several Nitro Specials of various gauges, and even a Crescent. With that said I did make some long shots with the guns because at 40 yards out the birds are often dropping.

Nowadays I confine myself to guns that have around 2.5” DAH but even then I’ve had problems. I picked up a beautiful super lightweight 12 gauge French guild gun about four years ago that measured just fine for me, except that it had such a narrow comb I was always shooting to the right of my target.

Steve

One thing never mentioned when we talk about preferred drop measurements is the differences in facial features. The distance from the pupil down to the bottom of the cheekbone would seem, to me, to be the very minimum drop needed at comb to try and get a gun to shoot flat, or 50/50. Add to that the preference for some, like myself, to cheek very lightly the comb, and you may need to add a bit more to that distance.

It is 2 1/4" to 2 3/8" from the bottom of my cheekbone, where I would have the comb if I cheeked snugly, to the center of my pupil. That is DAC, mind you, not DAH. DAH is usually more, except with a parallel comb or Monte Carlo. So, you can see why I could shoot what some would consider excessive drop okay. If you prefer a gun with around 2 1/4" DAH, stand in front of a mirror with a tape measure or a ruler and measure that distance. It might be enlightening.

There are all kinds of differing facial measurements. They affect what we each need in stock measurements. I do not argue that some shoot 2 1/4" DAH very well, but they either don't have as long a distance from cheekbone to pupil as I, or they "float the bird" over muzzles.

SRH

Makes you wonder where firearm weight and MOI fit in.

I don't follow you, CZ. DAH has nothing whatsoever to do with weight or MOI. Both those things are important in their own right, but the OP was referencing drop, not weight or dynamics.

SRH

It's all about hit or no hit, Stan.

None of that other stuff means diddly.

Of course it is. Did I give the impression that I concern myself with "drop" for any other reason?

What is the other stuff that is unimportant as it applies to hitting what we shoot at?

I really don't know now if you're being vague, or if I am just dense.

SRH

I think drop at ‘face’ which is defined by both drop at ‘comb’ and drop at ‘heel’ may be the most important dimension. Too much drop is terrible for me. I can shoot from the hip about as well as shouldering the gun if the gun has excessive drop. Also, it’s been explained to me (I think Daryl Halquist might have mentioned this) that cast equates somewhat to drop. Although I don’t like too much drop, I do like some mild-mod cast. Having said all this, I had a gun once with 3” drop at heel, but a very high comb. I shot that gun fairly well, but it always felt very odd for me. I think the high comb was why the gun was almost ok for me, but I’m not 100% sure. I like guns to shoot a little high. 50:50 isn’t that great for me.

Me, too buzz. I like 60/40.

SRH

I think Stan and Buzz have defined it. I have several guns that have differing drop at comb and heel dimensions that I shoot well. The consistent dimension of the ones that I shoot well happen to have a 2" drop at face, with a length of pull and cast off that is in the ball park for me.
Karl

I wasn't going to open this can of worms, but this Parker has some cast-on (I shoot right handed), which may explain why it's giving me a workable sight picture. (for lack of a better term). I have to be a little conscious of getting the butt well into my shoulder pocket, but there it is. This gun will be fine for the range, but not my first choice for flushing birds requiring helter-skelter gun mounting.

I shoot all kinds of dimensions with no trouble.