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Posted By: Bill Graham Brevete 16ga info sought - 01/27/18 10:54 PM
Shown a Brevete 16ga boxlock by a friend today who is selling family estate guns. Offered to help him figure a few out.

Brevete 16ga
27 5/8” barrels, not cut
Full/Extra Full
Concave rib
Sling swivels
Prince Charles
Metal buttplate
“COSTO” stamped on trigger plate
Like-new bores
Some slight pitting on barrels
Frame and iron seem to be blued

Images here:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1-Q8KNzkqpfN3IPosg2Q_L4Xype7L4ut6
Posted By: L. Brown Re: Brevete 16ga info sought - 01/27/18 11:43 PM
Not Belgian. Clearly French from the proofmarks, and relatively modern (850 kilo proof pressure). French guns are usually pretty good quality, but Costo is somewhere near the bottom of the French heap.
Posted By: skeettx Re: Brevete 16ga info sought - 01/27/18 11:45 PM
http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=449186

https://www.gunauction.com/buy/11212037
Posted By: Bill Graham Re: Brevete 16ga info sought - 01/27/18 11:54 PM
Thank you. This one has the stepped barrels. The gunauction above site references color case remaining. If this was ever color cased, it’s under black oxide now. The family story is that it was brought back here from Europe by a returning serviceman.
Posted By: Argo44 Re: Brevete 16ga info sought - 01/28/18 01:27 AM
From the French gun terminology line: http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=480959

Breveté(e) - patented
...Breveté(e) SGDG - model patent ("sans garantie du gouvernement")- Patented Without Guarentee of the Government". French distinction that designates a technical patent in the U.S. sense, as opposed to trademark and the old design patent number system that dealt only with name and shape.

Somehow doesn't look like a pre-WWII Manufrance. I could be wrong. What's it chambered for?
Posted By: Bill Graham Re: Brevete 16ga info sought - 01/28/18 01:43 AM
2 3/4” chambers. The person who reportedly brought it back from somewhere is no longer living, and the friend who’s needing the help with this one and several others is not well versed.

I really dislike the sling swivels, but it’s kind of a neat little 16ga.
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: Brevete 16ga info sought - 01/28/18 02:12 AM
It's a Costo. It is very closely related a Robust, I think they are the same gun with different names on them. Manufrance produced like a million of them, they were work-a-day guns for the masses.
There was some sort of factory running joke on the names, that escapes me at the moment, but, the truth is you can't really buy anything like either of these guns today. Solid hunting implements, usually pretty light and with adequate wall thickness and meat in the chambers.
Watch for pitted barrels. Most won't sell for more than 1K. Good deals.

Best,
Ted
Posted By: Argo44 Re: Brevete 16ga info sought - 01/28/18 02:25 AM
70mm chambers existed in French guns before WWII...I've documented a lot of them but the vast majority of French guns in the period between the wars were 65mm ...2 1/2. 70mm didn't really become common until the 1950's? So I'd expect the gun to be 65mm.

Here is something about Costo from "Passionlachase.fr" with a rough translation below:

Le Costo est né en 1924 lorsque la Manufacture de St Etienne crée une société de vente parallèle (Manumodele) pour pouvoir vendre des armes à un tarif plus élevé en leur donnant une dénomination nouvelle.Les armes sont fabriquées dans les ateliers Manufrance, par les mêmes ouvriers, avec les mêmes matériaux.Sont donc produits des frères jumeaux qui porteront des noms différents.Ainsi le Robust devient le « Costo ».Sa numérotation dans le type est abaissée d’une unité : un Robust n°22 devient un Costo n°21.Par contre le tarif de vente est considérablement augmenté et variable selon les points de vente.

Au point de vue valeur intrinsèque, le Costo est le clone du Robust, il rend donc les mêmes bons services.Son marquage « Costo » est bien plus rare que les Robust et le collectionneur peut y trouver son compte.Sa production cessera en 1940 avec l’extinction de la Manumodele.En salle des ventes le Costo est moins onéreux qu’un Robust, sa décote est même sensible, ce qui peut expliquer son bas prix d’achat à 80e, une affaire donc 8) !


Translation:
"Costo was born in 1924 when Manufrance of Saint Etienne created a parallel retail sales company (Manumodele) in order to sell guns at a higher retail price by giving them a new model. The arms were fabricated in the workshops of Manufrance by the same workers with the same materials (as Manufrance Robust). They were therefore twin brothers which carried different names. Thus the Robust became the "Costo". its numbering of the model types was one number less than the Robust...a Robust no. 22 became a Costo no. 21. On the other hand the sales price was considerably augmented and varied according to the place of sale.

"From the point of view of intrinsic value, the Costo is the clone of the Robust, it gives therefore the same good service. It's mark "Costo" is quite a bit rarer than the Robust and the collector can find them with some difficulty. Its production ended in 1940 with the extinction of Manumodele. In the salesroom the Costo was cheaper than the Robust, the offer prices were negotiable, which might explain its lower sales price about 80% (of a Robust). and therefore a bargain."


Ie. You have a model number "201" and a serial number 181025. Check out this line: Page 11 - The years of the Robust models....the Robust model equivalent will be "202." which was produced from 1932-1940.

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=484199
Posted By: skeettx Re: Brevete 16ga info sought - 01/28/18 02:27 AM
Was it brought back from Europe or Vietnam?
Mike
Posted By: Argo44 Re: Brevete 16ga info sought - 01/28/18 02:36 AM
They searched you leaving Vietnam..confiscated anything like empty grenades, double edged blades (Montagnards spear heads for instance). Almost no trophies other than uniforms, helmets etc. made it back...at least for enlisted men and that included Special Forces. They tried to confiscate my Randall knife...the one I carried 40 years later in Afghanistan.
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: Brevete 16ga info sought - 01/28/18 03:07 AM
See "Americanization of a VC" The American Rifleman, January of 1976, by Col. Frederick E. Roseman.
At least one Darne returned to the US from Vietnam. He documented that it was taken from the Viet Cong, and his restoration of the gun, including a restock.


Best,
Ted
Posted By: Bill Graham Re: Brevete 16ga info sought - 01/28/18 03:19 AM
Originally Posted By: skeettx
Was it brought back from Europe or Vietnam?
Mike

Confirmed, Europe. Learned a bit more, and the gentlemen lived in Germany for a while after the war, and then came back to the US.
Posted By: Argo44 Re: Brevete 16ga info sought - 01/28/18 03:41 AM
A Colonel no less got around the "you can't bring squat back" MP's??!! Surprise..Surprise...as us "grunts" had to go through all those physical searches. I'll read the article. But frankly I never saw a "VC" carrying a shotgun..then again I was in II Corps for both tours....Darlac Plateau area NW of Ban Me Thout 66-67 and Kontum second tour 68 with FOB-2 MACVSOG...and it was all NVA regulars there. Maybe the Colonel was in the Delta (IV Corps) in the early years of the war? (Somehow that gets me P.O'd even at 50 years distance when I think about the Montagnard crossbows, etc., taken from me...RHIP...but I don't have much patience for that anymore).

I do know a guy in Afghanistan who found a 1930's Harley down in Qandahar and brought it back - or was it an Indian? I forgot.
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: Brevete 16ga info sought - 01/28/18 04:04 AM
One of the toughest guys I have ever met in my life volunteered for all three tours he did in Vietnam, he was a gung ho infantry Marine with a wife and four kids. On his last tour, his wife asked him to do something good while he was there, and he walked into an orphanage, and asked the nun "Which kid doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell?"
The nun assured him the one who had the least hope was a bi-racial ethnic Chinese/ black child, daughter of a prostitute and a GI.
He adopted her, and she grew up with us kids in our neighborhood.
My understanding is the gent was an absolute terror in combat, and simply lived for it. He found his calling in the USMC.
The Darne and that kid are the only two items I know for sure that came back from Vietnam with US servicemen.



Best,
Ted
Posted By: Argo44 Re: Brevete 16ga info sought - 01/28/18 05:10 AM
Great story Ted. I knew of an orphanage up near Pleiku - one of its overseers was a famous woman Ko Tam connected to FULRO - that was flame throwered by an NVA battalion passing through. Glad the Col brought a child back...I was 23-4 and wouldn't have known how to do that at the time or been able to...and a gun..I wouldn't have been able to do that at the time either. And I volunteered for both my tours and for the Army, and Airborne and Special Forces and MACV SOG - most of the troops over there until about 1970 were volunteers despite years of propaganda to the contrary including that Vietnam series just concluded

For many years there was something of a grudge carried by Special Forces against the Marines over Lang Vei. My nephew is a Marine...so I guess it's also something consigned to the past.

But I can guarantee you one thing...there weren't any "VC" left in I Corps..it was all NVA - and if there were...they weren't carrying shotguns. That gun was likely a presentation. (My opinion)

Edit: I'm sorry Ted...nothing at all against the story and it's a great one...Vietnam after all these years of travel abroad and other conflicts just still pushes my buttons, I apologize for being a d**k.
Posted By: L. Brown Re: Brevete 16ga info sought - 01/28/18 01:46 PM
Argo, have you run across any French guns you can document as being pre-WWII with the proof pressure marked in kilos? Even though all European gunmaking countries are now part of the CIP, they still--obviously--use different proofmarks. But the Brits didn't replace their "tons" marks with "bars" until the 80's. I've always assumed--perhaps incorrectly--that French guns marked with pressure using the metric system were all post-WWII.

My guess on this gun, given that we now know that the individual who brought it back--since he lived in Germany for a period of time after the war--likely got it there during the postwar years. If he was still serving in the military, and particularly if he was an officer, it's quite possible he was authorized to ship household goods back to the States. When I returned from Morocco in 1973, I had an SKB sxs that I'd purchased at a military rod & gun club in Spain. I followed the rules and sent it back--where it promptly ended up stuck in Customs in New York, and they were going to charge me locker rental storage fees. One of the gun dealers in my home town finally figured out how to "liberate" it and avoid the charges. But I should have followed the advice of my friend who was the vice consul in the embassy (and a former diplomatic courier), who said he always sent his guns back and forth with his household goods. Technically against the rules, but it worked for him. The individual in question may have done the same thing . . . rather than trying to bring it back in his duffelbag, like a returning enlisted soldier. Of course in those long ago days, I also reported for duty in Morocco carrying a shotgun through Moroccan customs--the gun having flown with me, in the cockpit of the Pan Am 707 on which we arrived. Which Pan Am had assured me was the legal way to do it back then. Confirmed by the pilot, although the gate agent in New York tried to argue otherwise.
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: Brevete 16ga info sought - 01/28/18 02:22 PM
Argo,
The Col. who wrote the article for The Rifleman brought back a Darne. The Marine I knew was likely a SSGT at the time he brought back the little girl he named Beth. I have no idea what his rank was at retirement, which would have been early 1980s.
He has since passed away, but, was one of the toughest individuals I've ever known.


Larry,
Tim Carney had a Darne 10 reproofed, and had an article in DGJ on the gun. If I am not mistaken, he didn't get the level of proof he asked for, and the barrel work that was done in France had to be corrected by Kirk Merrington when he got the gun back. That part didn't surprise me, when I read the article, which, I don't have at hand.
I don't recall ever seeing kilos marked on a French gun-if it passed proof, it got the crossed wheat marks of the St. Etienne proof house applied at whatever level of proof had been requested. Even if the numbers or system changed, the marks stayed the same, at least for the last century.
This could have changed.

Best,
Ted
Posted By: Argo44 Re: Brevete 16ga info sought - 01/28/18 03:35 PM
Originally Posted By: L. Brown
Argo, have you run across any French guns you can document as being pre-WWII with the proof pressure marked in kilos? Even though all European gunmaking countries are now part of the CIP, they still--obviously--use different proofmarks. But the Brits didn't replace their "tons" marks with "bars" until the 80's. I've always assumed--perhaps incorrectly--that French guns marked with pressure using the metric system were all post-WWII.

My guess on this gun, given that we now know that the individual who brought it back--since he lived in Germany for a period of time after the war--likely got it there during the postwar years. If he was still serving in the military, and particularly if he was an officer, it's quite possible he was authorized to ship household goods back to the States. When I returned from Morocco in 1973, I had an SKB sxs that I'd purchased at a military rod & gun club in Spain. I followed the rules and sent it back--where it promptly ended up stuck in Customs in New York, and they were going to charge me locker rental storage fees. One of the gun dealers in my home town finally figured out how to "liberate" it and avoid the charges. But I should have followed the advice of my friend who was the vice consul in the embassy (and a former diplomatic courier), who said he always sent his guns back and forth with his household goods. Technically against the rules, but it worked for him. The individual in question may have done the same thing . . . rather than trying to bring it back in his duffelbag, like a returning enlisted soldier. Of course in those long ago days, I also reported for duty in Morocco carrying a shotgun through Moroccan customs--the gun having flown with me, in the cockpit of the Pan Am 707 on which we arrived. Which Pan Am had assured me was the legal way to do it back then. Confirmed by the pilot, although the gate agent in New York tried to argue otherwise.


Larry, As you all know I have a very limited assortment of SxS's since I just got enamored with SxS's 2.5 years ago. I have the
-- 1898 EM Reilly 12 bore hammer gun with 30" Damascus barrels (Reilly line)
-- a "Wonder" 1930's Saint Etienne 12 bore - http://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=448156&page=5
-- the William Evans 1902 20 bore - http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=475775, and the
-- 1906 Gerest Berthon 16 ga Saint Etienne 16 bore with Didier Drevet barrels - posted by Ed Goode here which provoked the "dating early French shotgun" line.
You guys have helped me with all of them and I've learned a lot. But, I'm not sure what to look for on these guns for proof pressure. On the two Saint Etienne guns there's only the Saint Etienne crossed fronds.

I have been meaning to check the Reilly barrels out for Dates - one of our British posters noted that his Reilly with a SN from 1903 had barrels proofed pre-1896.

As for shipping guns..all of mine were hidden in trunks of Baluch rugs when I transferred PCS abroad. I never declared them. I even got a complete reloading apparatus into India including the powder and primers because of at the time Indian "Permit Raj" restrictions on shotgun ammo.

From Afghanistan, if it was pre 1898, you mailed the stuff back via APO. Up to about 2007 some of the JAG officers were flexible enough to allow British .303 SMLE Enfields to be sent back, reasoning they had been designed in 1892. I did stick an old hand-made clapped out double hammer gun with Islamic inscriptions on it's rib in my luggage in Quetta about 2008 and carried it back unmolested to the USA through Chicago airport with nary a question being asked.
Posted By: Bill Graham Re: Brevete 16ga info sought - 01/28/18 07:49 PM
This is one of a several guns that were brought back at the same time, and the gentleman was a Lt. Col.
Posted By: old colonel Re: Brevete 16ga info sought - 01/28/18 08:13 PM
Originally Posted By: Argo44
They searched you leaving Vietnam..confiscated anything like empty grenades, double edged blades (Montagnards spear heads for instance). Almost no trophies other than uniforms, helmets etc. made it back...at least for enlisted men and that included Special Forces. They tried to confiscate my Randall knife...the one I carried 40 years later in Afghanistan.


Made me think of my Randall which was confiscated during desert storm and had to be replace when I got home. I now have a bunch of Randall’s, which like my Shotguns I only seem to use one of, a Model 10, 90% of the time.
Posted By: 2-piper Re: Brevete 16ga info sought - 01/28/18 08:40 PM
I also read the AR article on the Darne the Lt Col brought back. Nothing indicated it was actually used by the Viet Cong as I recall. It was selected from a piled up heap of all types of guns in a warehouse, probably many of which were confiscated civilian guns, which this Darne likely was.

I do not now recall the reason now but this LT Coll was allowed under proper authority to select One (1) gun as a personal souvenir to bring back to the states with authorization. He picked the Darne, an R10 as I recall.
Posted By: Argo44 Re: Brevete 16ga info sought - 01/28/18 11:51 PM
Originally Posted By: old colonel
Originally Posted By: Argo44
They searched you leaving Vietnam..confiscated anything like empty grenades, double edged blades (Montagnards spear heads for instance). Almost no trophies other than uniforms, helmets etc. made it back...at least for enlisted men and that included Special Forces. They tried to confiscate my Randall knife...the one I carried 40 years later in Afghanistan.


Made me think of my Randall which was confiscated during desert storm and had to be replace when I got home. I now have a bunch of Randall’s, which like my Shotguns I only seem to use one of, a Model 10, 90% of the time.


Not the hijack the line into one about Randalls, but here's a couple of articles written by twin brother Jack Williams on Randalls in Vietnam for the Special Forces association:

http://specialforces78.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/0714-Sentinel-News-FINAL..pdf

And this one about Col. Hal Moore's knife:
http://specialforces78.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/0917-Sentinel-News.pdf

Guys in Afghanistan don't carry sheath knives anymore.
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: Brevete 16ga info sought - 01/29/18 12:01 AM
Originally Posted By: 2-piper
I also read the AR article on the Darne the Lt Col brought back. Nothing indicated it was actually used by the Viet Cong as I recall. It was selected from a piled up heap of all types of guns in a warehouse, probably many of which were confiscated civilian guns, which this Darne likely was.

I do not now recall the reason now but this LT Coll was allowed under proper authority to select One (1) gun as a personal souvenir to bring back to the states with authorization. He picked the Darne, an R10 as I recall.


At no place is it mentioned that this is a Lt. Col-in fact, in the line with his name it states his rank as Col.

The first paragraph states, unequivocally, that the gun "was carried through the jungles and deltas of Vietnam, and not on our side".

I have no reason to doubt that assessment, from the Colonel. He was there.

The second picture on the lead page of the article shows clearly a Darne R action, with a sliding breech that is engraved. This level of engraving would not be applied to an R10. The last picture in the article shows what appears to be the entire gun having been blued. At no point in the article is grade of the gun stated.

But, it is not an R10.

Best,
Ted
Posted By: Argo44 Re: Brevete 16ga info sought - 01/29/18 12:10 AM
Since he was a Marine, he served in I Corps. There aren't any "deltas" there. And I sincerely doubt that that Darne was carried by any VC (South Vietnamese Communist Party member - who still took his orders from the North Vietnamese Politburo). It may have been carried - likely was since someone, possibly a French planter - there were still French planters there at the Mewall rubber plantation N. of Ban Me Thout in 1966 - must have used it for hunting....but it wasn't involved in the war. Ted, the sentence you quote has every appearance of hype.

50th anniversary of Tet is here and the media will be out in force - I'm going to hate this because there will be junk and balderdash....often pink tinged and full of ill-disguised contempt for our soldiers ...published by the volume and it will just antagonize us again...because that North Vietnames offensive effort destroyed the VC main force units in III and IV Coups...the southern communist cadres never again played a significant part in the war and what was left was finished off by Phoenix.
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: Brevete 16ga info sought - 01/29/18 12:20 AM
Argo,
At no point in the article does Col. Frederick E. Roseman state that he is a Marine. In fact, the only reference to branch of service is when he states that he asked to process the paperwork for the gun himself since "it would allow me to visit some of the Army units I had not previously seen (this wise move I was to regret a thousand times later on)".
I can't understand why a Marine officer, nearing the end of his tour, would want the chance to visit Army units of any type, but, there is likely much I don't understand about Marines. From the context of the aritcle, I would assume he was Army, and I do know no Marine I ever met would allow anyone to think for an instant he was Army.

Best,
Ted
Posted By: Argo44 Re: Brevete 16ga info sought - 01/29/18 12:22 AM
I guess because you mentioned Marine in your original posts? Fact he didn't give his branch of service, unit or where he served is really strange. Nobody does that - It's an immediate identifier - "Oh you served in II Corps, near Kontum.....") Let me do some research on him.
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: Brevete 16ga info sought - 01/29/18 03:29 AM
Argo,
Colonel Roseman was Army in the Vietnam era. Served at the very end of the second world war in the Marines, after graduating with a chemical engineering degree. Had a full ride football scholarship. After discharge, he joined the National Guard, and was activated during Korea, and decided to make his career in the Army. Made his mark in guided missle research, served at the Army College in Saigon during the Vietnam war. Retired as a Colonel.
Was an interesting man, and left us in 2007.
Having said all that, his editors at The Rifleman may very well have editied out any comments regarding his service that he had in his article. It was a short article of two pages, and editors are notorious for leaving what they consider unimportant to the story, out.

Best,
Ted
Posted By: Argo44 Re: Brevete 16ga info sought - 01/29/18 04:15 AM
Thanks Ted...I found his obituary. Col. Roseman was obviously a man of engineering talent, energy and high intellect. He served at the Army College in Saigon...probably teaching ARVN officers. That was honorable service but not combat. No problem with that - he served. But that shotgun then was likely a presentation piece. That's not a problem either. Then again the editors didn't have to build it up by making it out to be a VC weapon....but what the heck...it's a story about the resurrection of a gun with a neat provenance....they just implied more than they should have.

And believe me, the world is full of similar exaggerations. About 3,500,000 American military personnel from Army, Navy, Marines, Air Force served in the SE Asian theater (from Thailand to Guam) from 1956-75. At the last census over 14 million claimed to be Vietnam Vets. And that count of exaggerators doesn't include all the fishermen in the world.
Posted By: L. Brown Re: Brevete 16ga info sought - 01/29/18 02:40 PM
Originally Posted By: Argo44


50th anniversary of Tet is here and the media will be out in force - I'm going to hate this because there will be junk and balderdash....often pink tinged and full of ill-disguised contempt for our soldiers ...published by the volume and it will just antagonize us again...because that North Vietnames offensive effort destroyed the VC main force units in III and IV Coups...the southern communist cadres never again played a significant part in the war and what was left was finished off by Phoenix.


Excellent post, Argo. That war eventually came down to NVA vs ARVN . . . and thanks to Congress, we failed to live up to the promises we'd made to support the South when American troops were withdrawn. William Colby, undoubtedly the most experienced high ranking CIA officer in Vietnam (having served as chief of station, later in charge of Phoenix) made the very clear and accurate point that it wasn't a guerrilla in a cone hat and tire tread sandals that broke down the gates to the presidential palace in Saigon. Rather, it was a North Vietnamese tank.
Posted By: Dave in Maine Re: Brevete 16ga info sought - 01/29/18 02:55 PM
Setting aside the digressions from the original topic I'll make two points.
1. the OP asked about value. Depending on the level of pitting and where it is, I'd start somewhere around $400-$500 as "value" and $300-$400 as an initial offer (if I was in the market to buy, which I am not). The Costos are, as mentioned above, solid workaday guns. It may be that polishing the bores (and opening the chokes to accommodate plastic wads) turns this one into a real peach of a hunting gun. Taken care of it will likely outlive us all.

2. Last time I was there, the NRA Museum had an exhibit on the guns of America's wars. In the Vietnam exhibit they had a Darne, IIRC cut down on both ends. This came with an explanatory card saying the locals liked the Darne-type action because its strength allowed it to close and function, even on paper shells swollen by/in tropical humidity. I'll leave it to the other participants here to hash out the accuracy of the curator's statement.
Posted By: Argo44 Re: Brevete 16ga info sought - 01/29/18 05:05 PM
Dave, agree about the gun - it is plain Jane. probably with 2 1/2" chambers - but French guns, while light had metal around the bores.

CIA Saigon Station Chief's last cable from Saigon 29 April 1975:

“This will be final message from Saigon station,” “It has been a long and hard fight and we have lost. This experience, unique in the history of the United States, does not signal necessarily the demise of the United States as a world power.

“The severity of the defeat and the circumstances of it, however, would seem to call for a reassessment of the policies of niggardly half-measures which have characterized much of our participation here despite the commitment of manpower and resources, which were certainly generous. Those who fail to learn from history are forced to repeat it. Let us hope that we will not have another Vietnam experience and that we have learned our lesson.”

“Saigon signing off.”
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: Brevete 16ga info sought - 01/30/18 02:46 AM
Argo,
Some of the first US armed forces people in Vietnam were Coast Guardsmen, deployed in cutters on the rivers. But, I doubt there were 1.1 million of them per your figures, above, and the difference you noted.
A friend is considered a Vietnam vet, and I don't believe he set foot in Vietnam-he was a B52 machinist, stationed in Tailand.
He left most of his hearing in south east Asia.

Best,
Ted
Posted By: Cary Re: Brevete 16ga info sought - 01/30/18 07:28 AM
Originally Posted By: Argo44
They searched you leaving Vietnam..confiscated anything like empty grenades, double edged blades (Montagnards spear heads for instance). Almost no trophies other than uniforms, helmets etc. made it back...at least for enlisted men and that included Special Forces. They tried to confiscate my Randall knife...the one I carried 40 years later in Afghanistan.


You just had to know who to talk to. I spent so many years in Nha Trang a common joke was that after the war, if I didn't run for Mayor, I was going to open a cab co. 15 SOS/Heavy Hook. Used to spell the C&C Liaison (hauling personnel from the flight line to SFOB)and got to know a few of them pretty well. While I never had anything to do with it I knew of more than a few weapons riding in black C130's to the Philipinse and shipped surface (boat) to the US, then REA to the address. Seemed to work out ok, never heard of any problems. One of the Liaisons sent a silenced 16 with a starlight scope to Montana with no problems. Steered way clear of such stuff because it just seemed to be a good way to extend your tour with an extended TDY to Long Binh.

Can't wait to see Wolf Blitzer report on Tet. Does that lying SOB ever get anything right about Viet Nam?
Posted By: Argo44 Re: Brevete 16ga info sought - 01/30/18 03:11 PM
I've a lot of pictures of Nha Trang. When I first arrived in July 1966, I was held at Nha Trang 5th SFG Hqs for two weeks..Splash Kelly, the Colonel, had me build a handball court of all things. The SGM finally sent me up to Ban Me Thout and from there on to Ban Don. I hung out in the mail room...there were 5 of us there, I found the after action reports of the overrunning of the Ashau Valley SF camp..the one where the SPAD pilot won the CMH...including debriefing of each survivor. 4 days of reading....just amazing,

The second time was 1 April 1968. I ran into 5 of my buddies that I used to ride motorcycles with at Bragg in the NCO club - all of us buck sergeants or SSG by that time. We were all going to have to go through a week's training...though for most it was a 2nd tour in VN or a follow-on to a tour with 46 Company in Thailand but the class didn't start for 6 days. We knew what that week's wait would call for so...we all di di'd out of there, went down to the beach and rented a small hotel and stayed there for a week with great food and hot and running - well you know. We showed up at base about 6 hours before the course. SGM was furious...."YOUR NAME WAS ON THAT LIST"...."Gee SGM, didn't see it).
Posted By: Cary Re: Brevete 16ga info sought - 01/30/18 07:31 PM
Yep. Nha Trang was rough duty! Best thing I ever did as an E4 was [censored] up the Duty Sgt. Shipped me to Nha Trang as punishment! Used to call the 1st Sgt once a week and tell him to [censored] me again! There were worse places to be stationed than Nha Trang, such as Charleston, S.C. They'd send me orders for Charleston and I'd extend again to stay in Nha Trang.

Good days long gone. Thanks for the memories.

Ban Me Thout Was still Shinning Brass in '66, wasn't it?
Posted By: Argo44 Re: Brevete 16ga info sought - 01/30/18 07:56 PM
Ban Me Thout was B-23 in 1966...I was originally assigned there as a commo man. Col. Gillespie the Commander picked me to fly with him to Duk Lap in late Aug 66...we landed on the top of the highest hill - Cambodia was 3 clicks to the west...I was the first American to put foot there (Aug 1968 was the famous Duo Lap battle where the Nha Trang Mike Force really made its name). I was transferred to A-233, Ban Don just after a long mission we pulled with 6 Montagnard CIDG companies just north of III Corps near Noun Co over Thanksgiving 1966. I was at A-233 until I checked out to 10th Special Forces in Germany in early Aug 67. I returned in April 1968 and was assigned to MACV SOG FOB-2 Kontum. It was still CCN then - charged to CCC in November 1968

It is difficult to describe the MACV SOG chain of command. Hqs was in Ton Son Nhut. There was OP-35, 36,37,38,39. The cross border ops into Laos began in late 1965 Hqs at CCN at Marble Mountain with 3 other FOB's. Kontum was included.. Operations into Laos were code name SHINING BRASS. About 1968 because this was published in a newspaper it was changed to PRAIRIE FIRE.

Ban Me Thout became CCS and was opened in April 1967. It's operations into Cambodia were code named DANIEL BOON (later SALEM HOUSE).

I was 1-0 of RT Delaware at FOB-2 Kontum 11 Apr - 31 Oct 1968. I actually wrote the history of the team up about 35 years ago and it went pretty viral on the net about 2000. It can be read here.
http://www.macvsog.cc/spike_team_delaware.htm

Hard to believe it was 50 years ago...it seems like yesterday. I traveled for another 25 years abroad over the 50 years since I left Vietnam and have been in a lot of conflicts and not so nice places...but I can still smell VN.
Posted By: L. Brown Re: Brevete 16ga info sought - 01/30/18 11:56 PM
Originally Posted By: Dave in Maine
Setting aside the digressions from the original topic I'll make two points.

2. Last time I was there, the NRA Museum had an exhibit on the guns of America's wars. In the Vietnam exhibit they had a Darne, IIRC cut down on both ends. This came with an explanatory card saying the locals liked the Darne-type action because its strength allowed it to close and function, even on paper shells swollen by/in tropical humidity. I'll leave it to the other participants here to hash out the accuracy of the curator's statement.


Dave, the ability of the Darne to function in hot, humid places back in the paper shells day is one reason it came to be. The French had an extensive empire in the 19th century that included a whole lot of hot, humid places.
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