Merkel Frères ATM

Manufacture "ATM" D'Armes

Société Anonyme de Constructions Mécaniques de la Loire.

So, what might ATM represent or better phrased, what does the T denote?

Many thanks Argo for the effort.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Ask a question clearly...and voila:

manufacture ATM ( AUTOMOTO ) successeurs de la S.A. de constructions mécaniques de la Loire était un fabricant référencé du bassin Stéphanois au siécle passé, installée rue Gutenberg , avec des succursales à Liège et Suhl en Allemagne ( exploitation de la licence Merkel). ils ont produit - entre - autre - des cycles , motocycles , machines à coudre , fusils ( dont un modéle à canons fixes ) et bien d'autres produits industriels.
en tapant fusils ATM / automoto St Etienne sur un quelconque moteur de recherche , tu dois pouvoir recouper plus d'infos sur cette vieille firme gènéraliste.

(Search the above in red)

Rough translation: Manufacturer ATM (AUTOMOTO), successors of the Company of Mechanical constructions of the Loire, were a manufacturer in the Saint Etienne Loire basin from the 20th century, headquartered on Rue Gutenberg, with branches in Liege and Suhl in Germany (using the Merkel license). They produced among other things, cycles, motorcycles, sewing machines, guns (including a model with fixed barrels)(assume this is a Darne copy) and a good number of other industrial products.

type on (the above red search words) on a search engine and you'll be able to pull up info on this old generalist company.

I would assume the time period would be the mid to late 1930s. So is Gebrüder Merkel sourcing components, labour, etc. from Paris & St.-Étienne or were those just satellite store fronts?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

I still like this explanation:

Raimey, ATM-football...hummmm am I getting close? (Ok, Bear and Gene Stallings tried to help there with indifferent success so I don't think the new management Jumbo just hired is going to worry Saban).

And here I thought it was just the French keyboard?


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Yeah, I've chuckled 'bout that all day. May bleed over into tomorrow. Put a check in your effort column.


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Raise your hands of those who knew about this tid-bit of info 'bout Gebrüder Merkel's story? Here I thought it was simply a Merkel catalogue in French.


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Actually Raimey it's a very interesting side-light to the Saint-Étienne industrial story.

Early on this board I bought a war-trophy St Étienne 12 gauge with "Wonder" on the key. I finally figured out it was probably marketed by Ravat who had a trademark "Wonder" for bicycles and mortorcycles. It's what got me first questioning this whole "Helice" thing.
http://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=448156&page=1

But Ravat is nowhere listed in the St Étienne chamber of commerce listing of manufacturers of firearms and parts.. or whatever.. Nor is ATM. Except we haven't looked very hard. Yet.

Per the above, it looks like Merkel licensed the use of their name to a St Étienne company. Plus...here's a 1920's-30's German company marketing their name to French manufacturers. And a few years later.,,,,

Mine is a 1933 gun.

middle gun

I once owned a post war preunification 12 ga 203E that was marked Merkel Freres Suhl (no ATM marking, & if I remember correctly 1976 proof date & GDR proof marks). I always assumed it was standard GDR production for the French speaking market.

"So is Gebr�der Merkel sourcing components, labour, etc. from Paris & St.-Etienne or were those just satellite store fronts?"

The ad says "usine" (factory) and the description includes manufacturing the usual items gun makers in Saint Etienne made - bicycles, sewing machines, motorcycles, etc. Here's a post card showing the factory:

Dave, which proof facility's marks are worn on your 1933 example? With the stamp of "ALLEMAGNE" for Germany on the left side, it gives the appearance that Merkel Frères ATM had a shop in Suhl. So I still wonder what effort was applied where?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Raimey, from your first photo, I would guess that while ATM produced guns, they didn't build Merkels from the bottom up. "Licences Merkel frères" . . . licensed to sell or to make? I'd guess the former. Although Dave's gun with the ATM logo on the bottom of the receiver . . . maybe they did some finishing on guns they received from Merkel?

It will be interesting to hear about the proofmarks on Dave's gun.

These are Argo's images by the way.


Lovely mixing of countries: Austrian tube steel on the wares of a German compagnie in the language of French?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

That's about it for stampings.

This one has this extra pair of ivory beads for a total of four. Nice light 12 gauge just at a hair under 6 lbs. 5 oz.

Yeah, typical serial number, bore and Louis Kelber's initials on the bottom of the lower tube. The remainder of the marks will be under the wood. But the possibility exists that the lower rung Merkel offerings were brought to an "in the white" state in St. Étienne / Loire and sent directly to the Suhl proof facility, then badged and completed in Suhl. I would say that Gebrüder Merkel was getting much more than just money for granting a license to a French manufacturing concern. I just don't remember that many Böhler steel tubes on St. Étienne wares.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

The visible proofmarks are certainly German. Lower rung? Raimey, if the very first shots of what I assume to be ATM catalog copy represent what they actually sold, that's pretty clearly not a lower rung gun.

All of it does make one wonder just how excited the French might have been about German guns in the between the wars years. Not very pleasant memories from the Great War. And considering that back in the 20's, Verney-Carron was being promoted by French ace of aces Rene Fonck, who inscribed across his full page photo: "Le gibier tombe comme boches!" ("The birds fall like Krauts!")

Here is a more advanced design that is as French as please help????.....

You can think of it as uglier version of Strum Ruger Over-Under.....

Very advanced design with sliding breech lockup and large frame allowing for strength to deal with extra pressure of 28ga cartridge and implementation of light weight barrels. It is very ugly so it will take someone strong-willed to use it.

Do any of you think they could have been included in the War Repatriations after the "Great War" that were so hard on Germany?
Mike

I know they had to make guns outside of Germany after WWII. The French-made Walthers come to mind. This change sometimes in 1950s. I see no logic for them to offer Suhl guns assembled or finished in St.Etienne especially in France where know self-respecting Frenchman would buy German made or designed game gun. This is analogous of trying to sell B.C. Miroku My Luck to WWII vet here in 1950s or 1960s. Looking at these ATM gun I'm not sure I would pick one over something made in Suhl in the 50s or same there before WWII. One interesting side note is that Germans flooded English market with mass-produced game guns among them Merkel O/U largely in response to that invasion the English stared practice of staming Not English Made or Not English Make on those guns to protect their own industry.

There is another enigma to me out there from between the wars described as Abesser Merkel when offered for sale. What I seen were game guns and bolt actioned rifles often in african caliber magnums. The common denaminator was very very high quality. I know nothing about that maker, but clearly it focused on high end gun market.

Mr. Brown:

Ah, not a shot but a path to enlightenment. There's more here than meets the eye. Why would Merkel Brothers license another factory in another country if there wasn't a higher profit margin.

Syndicat Liégeois Pour la Fabrication des Armes de Guerre filed for protection in 1884 w/ Auguste Francotte in the mix.

https://books.google.com/books?id=c2MMAAAAYAAJ&lpg=PA197&dq=syndicat%20li%C3%A9geois%20pour%20la%20fabrication%20des%20armes%20de%20guerre&pg=PA197#v=onepage&q=syndicat%20li%C3%A9geois%20pour%20la%20fabrication%20des%20armes%20de%20guerre&f=false
(Copy & Paste)

Gebrüder Böhler filed for trademark protection in Belgium in 1895:

Böhler
Boehler
Böhlerstahl
Boehlerstahl
Aciers Boehler
Sigfried
Boreas
Blitz Stahl
and some odd knight with 2 shields?


Sauer filed for protection about the same time.

Merkel was sourcing rough blanks, as was Gebrüder Rempt, etc. from Sl in Herstal and Louis Kelber was putting his magical
finshing touch on them. Bar stock was imported from the country of origin of the specific steel & converted into tubes in a rough state. Germany was taking advantage of cheap labour in St. Etienne prior to WWII just as they were in Liege prior to WWI. Arms weren't made from the actual soil around Suhl but were manufactured from components sourced from wherever the Suhl mechanics could source cheap labour & quality products, which were built on the backs of unsung talented mechanics in Belgium, France, etc. who were doing the bulk of the heavy lifting.


Paul Abesser & Ernst Merkel did have a lovely Büchsenmacherei und Gewehrfabrik. Moose Snoot of Sweden made a document find which indicates that Abesser & Merkel filed for a listing as a concern on December 31st, 1919 to commence business as Abesser & Merkel on the 1st of January, 1920. Paul Abesser is typically thought of as a firearms merchant or sales agency, but he does have an 1899 listing as a Büchsenmachermeister. And there was an Ernst Merkel that acquired his master mechanic's sheepskin on 14th, 1929, so more research needs to be performed on this concern.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Jagerwhacker, I also have a Q1 200E from Suhl and there's no question the ATM gun is nicer and more refined. The newer 200E does have the articulated front trigger that the ATM gun lacks, but that's about it.

Never had ATM but one of the better guns I have owned was mid 50s 201E. It had nice hand engraving, articulated front trigger and Bohler steel barrels plus stamping indicating barrels were soft-soldered. Despite being like new when purchased it was very user friendly meaning one did not have to strain and put the gun over the knee to open up the action. The weight was just under 6.5lb with 28" barrels.

Well, fortunately I am the current custodian of one of those ATMs and boy is it a lively wand.



Serbus,

Raimey
rse

I think aTm is currently 4-7 overall and 1-6 in the SEC. One should not call them "lively" this year.

Indeed, maybe just on the cusp?? Hopefully next year??? But the Big Game is Saturday.....


On another note, I sent you an email asking if you knew the Korean >>White-Horse<< group? I ran across a fella about your age & was in your line of work many moons ago & he seems to have been embedded with such a group.


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

I believe I am the current custodian of this exact example??

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

If so, who removed the stock sling swivel and put the Ebony piece as a replacement.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

hey jager, nice to see you have returned...

Ed, his posts are from five years ago.