Thoughts on the Brno-made sidelock guns? The ZP series have chopper lump barrels, coil springs and a concealed third fastener. I have a 12 gauge with an English stock and extractors, which I think is decently well made, if not a bit plain. They don't appear to be as finely finished as some of the other European makers, but they do seem to have a lot going for them as far as function over form. Opinions?

Pictures??

All the Brno's that I have had felt like 2x4s

Mike

Longer barreled ones make good fence posts..

I have two 12's and one 16 gauge. One of the 12's is an ejector gun. Unlike skeettx, I find them to be very nice handling guns. I guess that is where how a gun fits you comes into play. I can break clays quite well with them. They are fairly well built, reliable guns. All parts were hand fit. Yes, they are on the plain side although you can get some with engraved locks. My ejector gun has a gold trigger guard and a bit fancier wood. Here in Canada, it is very hard to come across one in 16 gauge.

Mike,I'll try to get some pictures tomorrow in the daylight.

Gunsaholic, the 16s are scarce here as well....I know because I have been looking.

I'm not going to say these guns are not a little clunky, but they are supposedly made with very tough steels and with the coil springs I should think they would serve for a long time in the field, no?

guns: remember this?

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=233758&page=1

The advertisements above look like different guns from the ones I've owned. As I posted to the previous thread Ed noted, I owned a 12ga ZP49 and a 16ga ZP 47. The 12ga was heavy and I once missed four gobblers in one opening weekend with it. The 16ga was a joy to carry and to shoot.

Here are some older ads from the time my guns were built:







I have neither of them anymore, but if I ever come across another 16ga I'll likely buy it. Overall good guns...Geo

Fallschirmjaeger - I have a ZP49 12 bore which I bought new in Nairobi 40 years ago. It is as you describe except with ejectors. Plain black, no engraving - a poor man's Funeral Model. I carried it in the bush for protection (as a scruffy young American, I couldn't get a permit for a rifle back then) and hardly ever fired it. When I brought it back here I found that I couldn't hit a thing, and questions about that led me to this forum. You guys taught me about shotgun fit, I had the stock bent to fit, and as I thought it would be my only shotgun forever, I had tubes installed. Over the years you guys have made me buy nicer guns, but I still use it on rainy days and it still fits better than anything else. After forty years of moderate use, a firing pin broke and an ejector failed, both now repaired.

Between the modifications and the recent repairs I have put far too much money into a cheap gun, but who isn't a sucker for their first born?

A gold trigger guard, eh? That ought to really spruce things up.

SRH

No, what I'm saying is I have seen several of these Brno shotguns and this is the only one I have come across with the type of trigger guard it has. Don't know if it was a type of factory upgrade to go along with the wood because it has a bit fancier wood than what is normally seen. Anyhow, guess I shouldn't have mentioned it.

double post

No, not at all, gunsaholic. I've never seen a gold trigger guard, honest!

SRH

The ones from 50s were made with more attention to detail and as result of that were better quality. For example the cross section of stock wrist had oval shape, the checkering was better as well as metal to wood fit. The ones made in 70s the 80s were not as nice. They were discontinued because too much bench time was needed in their manufacture.

jager, this is true of the field grade east german made sauer brand guns, as well...the ones made in the fifties are of similar quality to the pre war guns...the later guns exhibit lesser quality fit and finish...

and, are there any sauer brand doubleguns currenting being produced in suhl?

Gunsalolic, I think you might have confused us. Does your gun have gold TRIGGERS or a gold triggerguard?...Geo

Mine is a 12 gauge, 70mm chambers, 28" barrels (or so...I didn't measure them) and just about on the nose of 7 lbs. I had the chokes opened to sk1/sk2. I forgot to mention it has rotating cocking indicators as well.

I've been meaning to take the hideous white spacer out from behind the butt plate, but I just have not got around to it.

nice looking field gun...

It is the guard that is gold colored. Here are pics of my 2 12 gauges. The straight grip ejector gun is from 1971 and the non ejector pistol grip gun is from 1963. Both guns are also at just under 7 pounds. The ejector guns screws all have the star shape type engraving while the screws on the gun from 1963 are all plain. Other than showing some use of the past 50 years, the fit/finish on both of these guns is very good with no gaps anywhere between the locks and the stock or between the action and stock.

Thanks Guns; never seen that before. Must be a Czech thing...Geo

At first I thought "why", then why not?

It's a first for me, too. Thanks for posting the pics.

SRH

I wonder if someone did a grip-ectomy on the stock and electroplated the trigger guard on that gun?...Geo

Yup. That is what I was thinking as well...

It appears its not as fitted into the stock as the other trigger guard is into its respective stock. Guns, did you buy that from a dealer NIB or used?

I bought the gun privately. I just did a close comparison between the 2 guns. Under magnification of the straight grip, I can see no indication where new checkering was cut and blended into the existing checkering. The diamonds start at the top and go into a continual smooth uninterrupted flow to the bottom. The checkering pattern is also not the same design as the pistol grip gun. The checkering on the straight grip starts further ahead of the safety button and flows further back from where the pistol grip checkering starts its downward curve. To have altered the existing checkering they would have had to sand away and remove the checkering and border. The width of the wrist measures the same on both guns kind of indicating no sanding was done. But I will never say never. Even if the checkering/stock is original, there is nothing to say that some previous owner didn't have the trigger guard electroplated.

Well...

Maybe this wasn't the best decision (it seems these guns are not too highly thought of on this forum), but I just purchased another one of these in 16 gauge. English stock, fairly nice wood, excellent checkering, ejectors, 27.5" tubes, and just a bit heavy at 6.6 lbs. I do not yet have it in hand, but I can post pictures of the gun once I receive it, if anyone is interested.

I bought both of my Brno guns at a local gun show for $600 for the pair. I couldn't shoot the 12 but liked the 16. I sold both to a member here for $800.

He passed the 12 along but had the stock re-done on the 16 and has posted pics of it here. He had the cheekpiece removed and I think converted the stock to english. It looks good.

Maybe he'll re-post the pics in this thread...Geo

Americans are not very familiar with the Brno ZP49 series shotguns but hunters in Canada are as they were imported to Canada during the cold war and not to USA.

Ron Vella in Canada is very familiar with this quality machine made shotgun and has made several double rifles using the actions. One of his most famous double rifle made from a ZP49 is in .450 #2 Nitro Express. With this double rifle he has killed much game in Africa and elsewhere, including long shots at around 200 yards.

The Brno ZP49 series of side lock back action shotguns are a credit to the great skill and knowledge of the Czech gunmakers as nowhere else in the world has any other manufacturer taken the classic English design concept and engineered a process to build a "machine made" replica of same (even with chopper lump barrels), at a very low price. The guns were made with electric arc furnace steel of what seems to me to be of such high quality that allowed the barrels to be built almost as thin as a handmade English shotgun. The shotguns made in the 1950's are exceptional good, but beginning in the 1970s design changes for cost reduction eliminated some of the exceptional features of the early shotguns such as the removable striker discs. Remember that these shotguns were designed and made for the European market and the stocks are shaped to that goal.

The actions of the ZP49 have a feature (in 1950's and 1960s guns) that is now a technique used by Holland & Holland in their double rifles for added strength. The feature is a "straight draw and forward rear lump (what we call the circle) that is shaped accordingly and is fitted to very close tolerances. This design allows the contacting of the draw and rear lump surface upon the firing of the cartridge thereby causing both the hinge pin and the draw of absorb shock. Of course many will say that Purdey and others used the classic circle design and fitted it to do the same, which they did. But Brno took thier concept and cleverly designed it from circle to straight angle (about 87.5 degrees from the action flats) where it could be done with machines (milling machines) and then with a few file strokes during assembly fitted. Brno also designed and made the action slot with a extra strong cross piece to support their draw/circle concept. The hinge pin is removable with typical English design of threads and a screw slot, and is 8mm in diameter. The actions were surface hardened as well as the lock plates. The action locking bolt is about 40% thicker than what one sees in a English shotgun and will tolerate much abuse.

In the ejector guns the Southgate ejector system is used, but with only 1 spring of clever design. Both the ejector kickers and the action cocking levers are built for strength and are much more robust than what other gunmakers would build for a gun for the common hunter and sportsman. The fore-end iron therefore for the ejector guns is about 6-7 ounces more heavy than the extractor guns. The ejector system is hardened properly and made to be trouble free due its robustness.

Brno has always been known and still is known for quality guns, rifle and pistols. The ZP49 guns deserve respect as here as they have elsewhere in the world.

Recently I was able to purchase a 1959 made model that was unused. I was amazed at the internal polish of the barrel bores--equal to what I have seen from best London gunmakers. How could Brno do that with a gun that sold for maybe less than US$50.00 during that time frame?

Think of the ZP49 guns as being an "Empire model" (i.e. Greener) as they would tolerate great abuse and failure of their owners to lubricate and maintain them as they should, but still keep on "ticking".

Interesting insight Bushveld...thank you

I actually do not know what the price of the ZP49 shotgun would have been in the iron curtain countries during the after WWII period. Considering how cheap that FN was making the Browning design A5 then and the retail cost of the A5 in the USA and the low standard of living in these iron curtain countries in the 1950's the ZP49 may have been less than US$25.00. I remember working at my first after school job in the late 1950's for US$0.50 per hour.

I find myself in need of another 16g.
A very good box lock Bayard or a ZP Brno are the choices available to me now.
I have handled neither one of them.
The Brno is 2x the $ of the Bayard.
Is the Brno the choice ?
Om

Condition is everything in such a choice. I know that is not the answer you want but it is truthful. However, in general knowing no more than your question it is likely that the Bayard is the choice by a wide margin.

Based on couple examples examined I would pick Pieper over ZP Brno. Basic Pieper BLNE with Baynard steel barrels, extra sliding top locking, blackened frame and bolt through the stock had plain but finely checkered stock ending in horn butt plate. I will admit if ZP was made in 1950s the choice would be much, much more difficult.

Thanks for that opinion Jag & especially bushveld.
After the report from bushveld on the previous page he still put the Bayard ahead of the ZP Brno.
Both guns appear to have been used very little, probably due to the price & availability of the ammo here in Australia.

The Bayard certainly has more class & looks like art rather than a farm tool.
I think the Bayard weighs less than the Brno ZP. That & its very good bores & overall condition put the Bayard ahead if it is 16/70.
O.M

In my humble opinion, it depends very much on the grade of the Pieper. I've seen a few that were very roughly finished. Then again others have been very nice...It appears the large manufacturing enterprise of Pieper made guns to cover a wide spectrum of price points; but again that has just been my observation. If all things are equal, condition, finish, weight, features, etc, I would sure choose the gun with the better fit. I think that would make all the difference in your enjoyment of the gun. "Pretty" doesn't always break clays or knock down birds, even if it is pleasing to the eye. If its a gun you plan on using rather than collecting, fit would be my personal deciding factor.

Your mileage may vary...

I agree. The fit is not a thing I can check with gun in hand as they are internet purchases.
I can bend if need be.
O.M

Good luck Moses....

If they're both nice condition guns and the prices are good, I think you'll be happy either way. Get lots of pictures!

My recommendation was a matter of logic: You stated that the Brno is 2 times the price of the Bayard. Further, you stated the Bayard is hand engraved. All this equals a wide margin of difference.

Merry Christmas and good shooting.

I certainly agree with this...

On the other hand, the Brno ZPs are more modern, they're sidelocks, they have Poldi steel barrels, and look pretty good next to a dead grouse...Geo

Almost anything looks classy next to the King of the Woods...

George;

Who did the stock work on the Brno ZP? It looks very nice and sleek without the European style cheek pad. I especially like the style of the grip of the butt stock

The factory standard stock wood was European Beech, although there may have been some Walnut stocks. The Beech stocks are very strong and light.

With more photos like yours, there will be increased interest in owning ZP's, so maybe you should not post anymore such photos.

Not my gun, well not anymore. I sold it to another member here who had New England Custom Gun do the stock work. The original stock was Walnut on this one.

Not my pics either, but he gave me permission to post. I had two, a 12ga and a 16ga and sold both to him.

Not my grouse either; I've never shot at one. Supposed to be some up in our GA mountains, but not that I've seen...Geo

I picked up my new ZP 150 in 16 gauge today. It's a 1968 gun with an English stock. To my surprise it had bushed strikers. My later made 12 did not have those. Apparently, they stopped doing that at some point during the production run. Either way, I was pleasantly surprised. It is not ultra light weighing in at roughly 6.7 lbs, but it is svelte and swings nice. Can't wait to get it in the field.