For some time now, I've had my eye out for a light 12 gauge field gun with 2.75" chambers at a price that would not have me fretting that the tiniest scratch or bump would jeopardize a major capital investment. I know of a couple potential candidates, both at 6.25 pounds and offered by reputable dealers. I'd be tempted to go for either of them if the other weren't available. Buying both is unfortunately not an option at this point

One is a Webley & Scott 700 with 28" tubes for a little over $2k. I haven't talked to the seller for details on condition and vintage; it looks like it's been shot a fait bit but taken care of, with a few stock dings, 80% case colors left, and sound, unaltered barrels

The second gun is a "Cabela's Hemingway" (V. Bernardelli) from 1986 with 25.5" (65 cm) barrels described as being in "near new" condition. It's going for $1600.

Barrel length aside and assuming condition as described, does anyone have experience or opinions about these options? I've read a number of threads on this board and elsewhere praising both guns as reliable field guns, the Webley being the classic Birmingham workhorse, the Bernardelli maybe a tad more refined but also "not English". I know it ultimately comes down to the individual gun, but I'd love to hear from anyone who's handled or shot decent specimens of both.

Thanks!

Bill

From a resale viewpoint the short barreled gun will be much harder to sell later if you decide to move in from it. Plus I like the 700 and it's workhorse reputation. I'd take a little more wear. Do check the chokes out because I see a lot of doubles with reamed out chokes these days. If you can handle both you might just go with which everyone feels the best.

The choice should be made based on fit and preferred handling qualities of each gun. The metal to wood fit will go to the Webley & Scott while the lightly choked Italian Beccasier will be lighter lighter and should have articulated front trigger. The standard barrel length was 60cm so the 65cm must have been done at Cabela's request. The VB is purpose built quick handling brush gun for woodcock, grouse and swamp wabbits. While the VB is cheaper the W&S will be easier to move if you try to sell it at later time because it was made in England and many have "allergy" to short barrels. Good Luck.

Bill, I'd add to what's been said above: What's your intended use for the gun? I've owned 700's and they are indeed nice, reliable field guns. However, even with 2 3/4" chambers, they really aren't built for some of the heavier and/or faster field loads we Yanks use in our guns on this side of the pond. If you're thinking pheasants, where you might be tempted to shoot 1 1/4 oz or more, I'd stay away from the 700. The Bernardelli likely has magnum proof (which the 700 does not have) and would handle heavier loads . . . although you might not want to shoot many of them in a gun that light.

Thanks for the replies. Both guns appear to have unaltered chokes--the VB is M/F, the WS SK2/F. Larry, the possibility of a trip up north to pheasant country is certainly in the back of my mind, but I'd probably be using 1 1/16 or at most 1 1/8 oz in guns that light. My understanding was that British 2 3/4" proof was up to 1.25 oz, though not at the high velocities and pressures of typical US loads. Wouldn't the RST pheasant load (1.25 oz. @ 1200 fps) wall within the Webley's service range? Even if yes, I doubt I'd want to subject myself or the gun to the pounding.

Bill

Did you ever own either of these guns Jagermeister?

Do you own any double shotguns at all?

How is the fit and handling qualities of the guns you lied to us about owning?

Didn't you tell us that you prefer short barrels because a short barreled gun makes you look taller?

Why do you feel the pathetic need to give advice on guns and things you have no actual experience with?

I've never owned a W&S, however, I have owned a few Bernies and I enjoy them very much. If you're looking for really light weight in a 12, you could keep your eyes peeled for a Bernardelli Elio. I think mine with an English stock weighs barely over 6 lbs with ejectors. Though, it also has the 25.5" barrel lengths and is choked in IC and Mod. The articulated trigger is also nice if you are carrying a light gun and shoot heavy pheasant loads in it. The bores are also chromed (I'm not sure on the W&S), which makes cleaning a breeze.

If both guns are neck and neck in the running, I'd choose whichever fit you better.

If you buy the Bernie, be sure you really want M/F in a short barrel gun.

If so, go for it.

I had a VB 'Roma' for a while, and thought it was a good value.

I have a Brescia and a Gamecock Premier
Fine sturdy guns
I would say that the Scott is a finer made gun

Mike

I had a line on an Elio not long ago that seemed about perfect--except for the single trigger. I passed. At 6.25# either gun would probably handle loads a bit above 1 oz more comfortably than my current 6-pound 12 and 16s.

Jones, I'd probably open those chokes up quite a bit if I got the VB!

Bill

My Elio has double triggers, but one thing I've noticed on the gun is that the wrist of the English stock is much thicker and chunkier than my other doubles. I would guess this has to do with the recoil in such lightweight guns, or it could be because of the stock through bolt (I heard the later versions of the Bernies had these, though I've never tried to take the stock off either).

Hemingway is the way to go...Forget about resale, its not enough money to worry about...I kill all of my Roosters with 1 oz loads..

Opening chrome barrels is 'less that ideal' which is all I'll say about that.

I'd be inclined to look for a Hemingway that's choked more like the gun was originally intended to be re the above ad.

Does anyone know if a 1986 Cabela's Hemingway would have chrome lined barrels? The AD posted above doesn't mention them, and neither did the seller, either in the listing or in the amail he sent responding to my inquiry. I've emailed him and asked him to check.

I'm pretty sure they all are. I could be wrong.

Mine was a 28ga. gun of similar vintage and it was chromed, per John Boyd at Quality Arms in Houston who imported it.

You might ask John, arrieta2 here. He's a personable chap.

Bill, assume they are chrome lined. To my knowledge all or most of them in that time were. Good guns with a through bolt in the stock. Strong. Butt ugly wood with some sort of plastic finish. The Webley 700 is also a good gun (I've owned a number of them. Usually plain wood with a subpar oil finish but durable. Engraving on the Bernadelli is stamped in. The Webley is hand cut, though quickly executed. Between the two I lean towards the Webley, maybe I'm snobbish, dunno. Both guns will probably be chambered 2 3/4".

I have had a couple of Gamecocks and both were chrome lined. No problems with either gun just didn't care for the 25 1/2" barrels. Currently have both a Brescia and a Italia hammer gun. Both of those are also chrome lined. I had the chokes opened on the Brescia with no issues.

Dennis

Mike Orlen told me that he has no issues with cutting through chrome lined bores when doing forcing cone and choke work. He says true chrome lining actually becomes part of the metal, and cannot peel or flake later, if cut through. He told me not to think about it like you do a chromed car bumper ......... that it's not the same at all.

SRH

Husky 310AS
Inexpensive, light, overhanging sears, high quality steel
You're welcome!
Best Regards,
JBP

How light are they? Most of the weights I've seen for Husqvarna 12s are at least 6.75 lbs. Simpson's has a few 310S in stock, all for less than $400 and all looking a bit tired. I'd love to learn more about this maker and their guns. The topic's still a bit bewildering to me.
Bill

One might ask surprisingly relevant question. What do many American towns have in common? The answer is Walmart. Let us say a fella needed box of non-tox on the go. Walmart would likely carry Winchester Xpert Hight velocity steel shot at about $6 oer box of 25 (1oz of #6 or #7 at average near muzzle velocity of 1325 fps). This could be fired from right barrel of the VB which I would find comforting. This fact would be the final "nail in the coffin" of the Webley & Scott.

Life is grand. Please see topic "Double gun prices with soaring stocker prices...."

I would go with the Webley. I have both and both are great guns but I really really like the Webley better. You could save some money and get a fox pin gun or sterlingworth though and probably be happier

Did someone mentioned an Elio 12 ga?

I have a cased 2 bbl set available
Factory leather case


John Boyd

Having visited the Bernardelli factory when it was at it peak, and having dismantled both Bernardelli and W&B doubles my vote goes to the Bernardelli.

Both guns have dovetailed lump barrels. Both are based on the Anson-Deeley prototype. But.... the Bernardelli has a bolted stock which makes it owner serviceable. It passed proof at 1200 bar, it has chromed lined barrels, it has a replaceable cross (hinge) pin which makes action tightening easier. The Webley has a cross pin machined from the solid. It also has a through the grip screwed stock with all its attendant risks.

As for handling, find an Elio in 16 gasuge. It will be a revelation!

Maybe I'll hold out for an Elio in 16!

The 12 gauge 2-barrel set John has on offer is very appealing http://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-fo...un_id=100895905 Wish it had two triggers....

I'll be taking my Darne 20 to the steel pattern plate at a gun club an hour south of town--my local club just doesn't seem to feel a board is worth the trouble or space. I'll be shooting RST 7/8 oz in 7.5 with and without spreaders and 1 oz loads from H&H (7.5) and Kent (English 6 bismuth). I'm curious to see how the 1-oz loads pattern after reading forever that 12s and 16s pattern "better" with that load while watching the market fill up with 20 gauge shells with ever higher payloads.

Bill, Bernies are nice in 16 . . . but you'll likely do a lot of looking before you find one. Way more 12's and 20's. True in particular if you're looking for a specific model.

John's gun is very nice.

Double triggers would get you nothing functionally with the skeet barrels, and not a lot with the IC/IM barrel set.

I bet 90% of the time you fire the open barrel first anyway.

My Bernie single trigger worked perfectly.

I'd be fine with it, but of course I ain't you.

Jones, if you're thinking targets--say 5 stand or sporting clays, or even skeet if you're shooting it with a double trigger gun--being able to select tight barrel first can come in quite handy.

Bird hunting . . . that depends on species. I now live where there's a lot of grouse and woodcock hunting. I've never intentionally gone rear trigger first on a woodcock, and I can only recall doing it twice (in a lot of years!) on grouse. On the other hand, if you're a pheasant hunter . . . I don't often hunt in big groups, and always over dogs. Usually pretty good ones, mine or someone else's. So my shots may, on average, come closer than they do for other pheasant hunters. But in a pheasant gun, I like a lot of separation between the two chokes. One pheasant gun I'm using this year is skeet and full (005/035). On a pheasant hunt using a gun with just a bit less separation than that several years back, I intentionally went to the rear trigger first 3 times in a row, I think in about half an hour. Worked well on the first couple long shots. 3rd try, I was maybe a bit cocky and tried to stretch the tight barrel beyond my ability. But I find myself selecting tight barrel first relatively often on pheasants.

I just shoot twice.

Problem solved.

Maybe . . except if you have to dump the open barrel in order to get to the tight one, then the bird is further away by the time you fire the second shot. The ability to make an instant selection, as well as greater reliability, are selling points for the traditional double triggers.

On the other hand (to be fair and balanced): If you shoot the tight barrel first and hit the bird but don't bring it down, you're now left with the open barrel for an even longer shot to try and finish it off.

For sure, if both barrels are choked the same, as a practical matter it make little or no difference. I just like the simplicity, reliability, and aesthetics of double triggers.

As Bill says, "simplicity and reliability" are the main reasons. On live birds I seldom ever select the rear trigger. On clays, especially doubles I most often do, choosing the choked barrel for the first going away clay.

My philosophy: Just get some lead in the air, maybe something will run into it.

I don't have a strong opinion on number of triggers, both systems work fine. It's OK if you want double triggers, a perfectly valid and reasoned preference.

Good luck with your quest.