Does anyone have any reference material that indicates what chamber pressures were used for loading any of the original factory paper shotshells? There were others but most of the early manufacturers paper shotshells were from Union Metallic, Remington, Peters, Winchester Western and Federal. I know brass shotshells were the norm until the paper shells of the 1890s and early 1900s but they would be different and many were handloaded. What I am curious to find is if there is any "data" on the early paper shells by the factories. I have not found any; especially from these very earliest "factory" loaded shells.
Maybe there was no standards for pressures back in those earliest days of shotshell manufacturing.

Here you go
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1F2sQuPm05IE4VWYYnCkvuXmYEzQoWd_SQgaAfUOZEFU/preview

After reading that I don't feel so bad when I used to ram those Kent TM's through my Nitro Special even though I heard her groan when I fired one.

Nor do I feel bad blasting a slug through her. I'll use it for deer hunting again this year.

I doubt you have anything to worry about.

A Nitro is a brute. I've seen a bunch of those that look like they have spent the last 80 years in the bottom of a duckboat, and the owners were still banging away with them. There was also the article in DGJ about the similar condition Nitro Special 12, that was off the face to boot, repaired with brass shim stock, fired for 20 seasons with heavy duck loads, traded away, and still being used like that.

Best,
Ted

Yes they are Ted!!!

I finally did something right. With the other shotguns I've owned and sold over the years I was smart enough to keep that one.

Thank you very much! As I thought, the pressures of the early loads were quite "strong". My question was generated because of a discussion with my gunsmith on the loads that would be suitable for a circa 1905 shotgun.

Please, what 1905 shotgun, double or single or ??
What matrix for the barrel steel?

Keep in mind those really high pressure 1 1/4 ounce 12-gauge loads were the very heaviest loads our North American ammunition companies offered. There were a lot 1 and 1 1/8 ounce 12-gauge loads offered with charges as light as 20 to 24 grains of Infallible or Ballistite or 2 1/2, 2 3/4 or 3 drams of bulk smokeless powder.

Then on the other end of the spectrum we see many instances of old time Pigeon shooters using loads with heavier charges then any of the factories offered. Probably the reason Parker research letters often include the gun being back to Meriden for rejointing!!

Indeed

October 19, 1895 Sporting Life
http://library.la84.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1895/VOL_26_NO_04/SL2604014.pdf
Dr. Williamson, of Milwaukee, Wis., has just purchased a new gun of more than ordinary proportions. The Doctor was quite taken with Carver's Cashmore gun, having long barrels and shooting a big load in a 3 1/4 inch shell; but desiring to give the American gunmakers a chance he ordered a gun from the Lefever Arms Company, of Syracuse, N. Y. but at the same time rather doubted their ability to make such a weapon as he desired. However, the gun was furnished and Dr. Williamson killed 79 out of 80 live birds on one trial, and 74 out of 75 targets, part being doubles.
The gun is a Lefever, 12-gauge, weighing 8 1/4 pounds, 32-inch barrels, and chambered for a 3 1/4 inch shell, and guaranteed to stand 4 1/2 Drams of “E.C.” powder, which is the amount of powder which he uses.
(1 1/4 oz. with 3 3/4 Dram “Schultze” was about 14,000 psi. “Schultze” pressures were somewhat lower than “E.C.”)

On the other hand, loads that were OK in a new gun in 1905 may not be advised in the same gun in 2017. The wood is now 112 years old. Pressure does not equal recoil, but pressure is what produces velocity, which generates recoil. Just because you don't rupture your barrels doesn't mean that you are not doing damage or accelerating wear by running it pedal to the metal.

nitro specials, like most ithaca made guns are relatively light weight field guns...shooting heavy loads in light weight guns is not a good idea...often resulting in cracked wood...

why not shoot light loads in light guns, in order to preserve the wood?

This is just my opinion, but I would caution anyone reading this old account to question it's technical accuracy.

A diet of proof loads guarantees a short lifespan for a shotgun.

A professional competitor can dispose of his tool at any time. It doesn't represent a good path for a normal person to follow.

Shooting 75 proof level loads in an afternoon from an 8 1/4 lb gun, would leave a mark.

It would be very hard to keep the gun from hammering itself to disappointment if used as described.


It would be interesting to know if this cannon is still out there in someone's collection. I'd like to see how beat up it is.

Posting anti-gun dogma on a gun enthusiast's forum isn't a good idea either Ed. But that never stopped you, did it?

gee keet, you did well on your first post. it was so encouraging to think that you finally got the message that most of us wish to discuss double guns and related topics here...not other issues...

please do try to control your obsessive compulsions and stay on topic...

We all know that YOU don't wish to advertise your Anti-2nd Amendment proclivities Ed. But I feel people should know about the enemy within. That's you Ed. The enemy! Ever hear the story about the wolf in sheep's clothing? The anti-gun crap you post here only helps anti-gunners toward their eventual goal of banning all guns... even doubles. You made your bed, and now you get to lay in it. Deal with it Troll.



If you wish to get back on topic, your blanket remark comparing the strength and weight of a Nitro Special to other Ithaca doubles was pretty stupid too.

FWIW, My EXPERIENCE, ruining a series of shotguns piling up waterfowl with 3" loads, has been contrary to the article.

Handloads with Blue dot, and later, STEEL, when pushed hard, either pounded the actions until things were bottoming out (gas semi's), Pounded the stock head apart, various pumps and SxS's, or loosened the gun until it felt like it was breaking in half when fired (some entry level American SxS's).

And these would be something like 11K psi, maybe 12 (edited after load checking), without me pounding away for an entire season of competitive shooting.

I "think" there might be some optimism in the claims of Dr. Wilson with regards to his favorite load.

most ithaca made field guns that have passed thru my hands are typically lighter than other american made guns...as such, it just seems like a good idea to use light loads in these old guns, in order to help preserve the old wood...plus, any pre ww2 made gun should probably only be fired with light loads, in an effort to keep the old, dried out or often oil soaked wood from cracking...

it would be interesting to hear from others regarding ideas to preserve old gun wood...for example, what is your opinion regarding action screw tightness? should they be tight, very tight or a little loose?

an keet, as you desire to discuss political and social issues, please do start your own thread and stop trashing this one...

and better yet, just go away...

So, is this advice aimed toward original guns, or, those that have suffered little round fisheyes in the metal from a "gunsmith" burning them with a propane torch, or, both? The torched guns would have had their hardening removed in an uneven fashion, I could see they would be close to wall hangers at that point, but, original guns, even if the color was gone would/should still be safe to use, with the loads Ithaca promoted for them, right?

I wouldn't use proof loads in any gun, but, out of my own Ithaca Nitro, I fear no normal 2 3/4" load, heavy load, promotional (often the worst offenders, pressure wise) or light. Thankfully, nobody with a torch of some sort ever got near it.


Best,
Ted

We already know about preserving old wood. How do you feel about preserving the old 2nd Amendment Ed? Oh, yes... we already have the answer to that one too:





I can't, for the life of me, understand why you think it is unreasonable of me to re-post direct quotes of your anti-gun dogma... yet you felt it was reasonable to Troll them here in the first place??? Could you perhaps have extensive brain damage from West Nile Virus Ed?

Hey Ed, you should check out that thread about duck hunting in Pakistan. I think you should even go to Pakistan and give it a whirl. I hear they hunt ducks over there with suicide vests.

ted: re: shotgun receiver recoloring...have come to the conclusion that it is not a good idea, regardless of method utilized...and certainly original factory heat treatment of receiver metal should never be altered in a vane attempt to replicate case colors...

and to repeat, old wood should be babied...just because a gun was suitable for heavy loads, when it was new, does not necessarily mean the wood is still strong enough to handle the recoil generated by modern heavy loads...

That's essentially what I said in my first post within this thread Ed. Why do you find it necessary to keep saying the same thing in order to run away from your anti-gun words?

And to repeat, old anti-gunners who pretend to be gun guys should be outed at every opportunity:



P.S.- I recommend that you should test your suicide vest on a patterning board before you try using it to hunt ducks.

Wow Ed what will I ever do if my Ithaca stock cracks.

How about I restock it.

Resell value is impossible to calculate if its never going to be for sale. And what's a Nitro Special worth anyway.

stupid is as stupid does...

You certainly do Ed. And that is why you will always hold the title of "Village Idiot" here.

And what could be more stupid than posting anti-gun rhetoric on a double shotgun forum... except maybe posting anti-hunting crap on a double gun forum???:



So after you use your suicide vest to take out a flock of Infidel ducks, could you get someone to post pictures of the aftermath Ed? Should be better than a punt gun. A couple pics of you swimming out to the flock in your duck costume would be cool too.

IE grade Lefever.

I grade Lefevers are both old and scarce, and I grades with ejectors are even more scarce. Not that many survive in nice condition because they were field grade working man's guns that were typically used hard. And probably the biggest weakness of Lefevers is the relatively fragile wood above and below the sideplates where it meets the action. Many are seen with cracked or missing splinters of wood in these areas. All the more reason to stick with low pressure low recoil loads in it.

Please see post 'Buying an Ideal' as in Manufrance from StEtienne. It is very elegant shotgun similar in appearance to very expensive round actioned guns from Scotland.