In my search for a suitable hammer pigeon gun I am seriously considering going to the Vegas show Jan. 19-21, '18. Considering is the key word, as I am not interested in flying there just to walk and look at a variety of guns for three days. This is really a quest for a particular gun. It would be great to meet some of you on here who regularly attend, and it may just happen, but I need a question answered as straightforwardly as possible, from those who have actual experience there. I was recently told by a pigeon shooter and writer of high regard that he quit going 10 years ago "when the military guys took over" the show. He said prior to that it had been a great place to buy high quality English doubles, but he could not say what it has been like in the past 10 years.

Is this show still the best one in the States to look for a high condition and quality 12 bore S x S hammer pigeon gun, or has it become just another conglomeration of black guns and militaria? I really would appreciate feedback from those of you who go each year, regarding this specific search.

Thanks all, SRH

I use to go every year, I have not been there in sometime. Most of the major dealers went, but I stay in touch with many and they do not go. All say its not like it was, too long a trip and poor sales have kept them away. I am fortunate that I was going when it really was something

John Boyd

The Bienfeld [sp??] show in January is the best one that I know of for doubles. I attend every year, and usually have a table. I don't see anything resembling a "military guy take over" Most of the largest used double dealers will be there along with a very large bunch of guys like most of us, displaying items of interest. I recommend it highly. Stop by the Lefever group tables and see some interesting items. The show is now held in the Westgate which offers a great, well lighted facility for showing guns.

The Las Vegas Antique Arms Show is different from most any other gun show I have been to. The name says it... Antique Arms. There are no significant "Black Guns", no camo, no jerky, no rubber tomahawks, Just antique guns, books, old ammo, and some old gun/western memorabilia and art. Just last year I found a Harrington and Richardson $300 grade double, and a Dan Wessen double, both for reasonable prices at the show. The Lefever Arms Collectors Association puts on an exhibit of guns you will not see elsewhere every year as do some other specialty clubs. The major auction houses are there with samples from upcoming auctions. Most of the big dealers are there with inventory that would take a lot of traveling to see if not for the show.

I am just hoping that the recent events in Las Vegas do not affect the show.

Vegas is easy and cheap to get to. The Antique Arms show is a decent show that will give you probably the best chance to find what you are looking for. But as you know it will be hit or miss. Heck the gun shop down the road might have what you are looking for but the chances are extremely small. What Vegas does is concentrate several best chance dealers in one spot. You might go and find three of what you are after or go three times to find one.

The other thing is that like Tulsa or Louisville show it is hard to see everything. Easier to network with someone else who is at the show and go different directions. Use to do this with a friend who was interested in pre war II custom Springfield or Krags. If I found a decent one I'd call him, it he found a Lefever 20 ga. C grade or better he would call me. Still waiting for that call.

"... too long a trip and poor sales have kept them away..."

I suggest that the dealers look to their prices for a solution to sales problems. When I can do better at gunsinternational I feel little need to line some greedy dealer's pockets. The last time I attended was year before last and I saw not black guns but lotsa STUFF and overpriced crap. OK not all crap but the prices were mostly outrageous. It was way easy to avoid immmmmmpulse purchases. There were some lovely guns in the modern section tho but I didn't see many guns going out the door there either. Guess Why? Attendees seem to regard it as a social event to soften the blow of otherwise disappointment. You might pay attention to all the added fees that LV has seen fit to pile on hotel bills. The bargain show reserved rooms were not that wonderful anymore IMO. Maybe the new place is different.

AFA Tulsa is concerned me and tw and marshgurl were there twice together and I think I saw maybe four doubles. OK may a couple more than that but damn few. BUT (FWIW) the prices were not the royal gouge. I got a couple watch chains and some conchos and gun socks. Get the idea? But if you're into really zoot old rifles ...........

If a particular gun is still available and a particular dealer takes it to Vegas I may be there to chat with him about realistic pricing. Otherwise it seems not that important.

I miss the tent TTTT

Stan -
Just noticed that the Reno show is next wkend. If I see a hammer gun there I'll let you know.

I have been to the Vegas show the last five years. You will have to look VERY hard to find a black rifle. The last one I saw was a custom wood stocked version by Turnbull. The show has two basic sections, one for the nationally advertised dealers and one with hundreds of tables of "private" sellers. There usually are a few new manufactures there as well, Fausti, Westley Richards, etc. I have found a couple of gems to add to my collection, last year a William Evans Paradox two barrel set and the year before, a Scott high grade Live Pigeon Gun. Both at what I consider fair prices. It is my opinion, you will see more antique SXS's at this show than any other single place. The show is also a gathering for the custom knife makers guild, if that is of interest. I strongly suggest at least two days to see everything. Friday and Saturday are best, or pay more and go on Thursday, set up day. I will be there on Thursday.
Good Hunting.

Add the Engraver’s Guild and Custom Gunmakers. Lots of talent.

The way of the gunshow has changed dramatically with the increased use of the internet and the half dozen or so large auction houses. Even with that being said, the Vegas show remains one of the last high quality shows available for one to enjoy. It truly remains focused on traditional firearms not black rifles or "flea market" tables. I regularly attend and will continue to do so health permitting as this is one of the last places to see high numbers of quality firearms.

The location allows for lower cost transportation and the show's size helps increase the chances of finding the one-off item or gun we're all searching for. In my opinion it remains much more true to the old gunshow concept. I'm in my 70's and have to tell you it's nice to find so many others there sharing our love of firearms not to mention bumping into other collectors I've encountered over the years.

Good luck in your quest....

Stan, I hate to say this but you are searching for something that is probably going to fly off the vendor's table as soon as the show opens. Chances of finding it before someone else is not good. You will be competing with the other exhibitors as well as Joe Public. Hammer pigeon guns have always been rare, are getting rarer and are one of the few specifications that are easy to sell nowadays.
If you don't want to waste time visiting shows, contact ALL the big dealers and make it clear you are VERY interested in the specific gun you require and have a budget of X. Be prepared to buy the first gun they offer you, they won't try again! Sadly you are going to be competing with people with very deep pockets who will buy whatever the dealer offers and sell it on if it's not what they want.
Most of the big boys will be able to place a gun such as you seek without ever laying hands on it, it will go pretty much direct from their supplier to the end user.
I work a little differently, I nearly always exhibit everything I restore at shows I attend but my business model is different as I have to bring everything in from the UK.
As said above, the Beinfeld show has nothing to do with black guns and cammo but it also has quite a few less big antique gun dealers than itdid in previous years. Some have ceased to exist and some have just stopped coming but the likes of Steve Barnett, Kirby Hoyt and, dare I say it, myself are still flying in to show our wares.
I wish you luck in your search.

Thanks to all for your input. I'm not so hesitant to go now. I don't know exactly what my friend was referencing concerning the "military guys", but sounds like that isn't a problem.

Toby, I really appreciate the comments about the scarcity and desirability of what I want. I will keep that in mind, and if I do find what I want I will "buy it now", and look some more afterwards. If I find something better, I can always try to sell the other one. I have contacted most of the big dealers in hammer guns, and made clear exactly what I'm looking for. However, I need to keep in touch with them regularly so they know I am still on the hunt.

It's out there. It will turn up eventually if I'm diligent. If I do go to the show, and I plan to, I will be in the door looking the instant they open on the first day. In that regard ........ is Friday morning the earliest that spectators are allowed to go in?

Thanks again to all, SRH

That's what I thought from the beginning. Instead of a budget of X, it could be a budget of X plus two or three K if you skip the trip.

Stan,

You can buy a Honored Guest pass for a ninety bucks and get in on dealer set up day - Thursday. That pass is good for Thursday, Friday, Saturday and Sunday. And you can get in the show early, the same time as dealers.

A lot of buying, selling and trading happen on Thursday between dealers and Honored Guests.

Your friend must have been thinking of some of the other Vegas gun shows. The Bienfeld January Antique gun show for the most part does not have any black rifles.

Here is a link to some details: http://www.antiquearmsshow.com/attendee-information-customer-buyer-las-vegas.php

Notice the special room rates, etc.

It takes me most of the first day to get thru the antique part of the show. Lots of nice stuff to see.

I think you'll enjoy it and you might meet up with some of the guys that post on the various gun forums.

Jolly

Bill,

I appreciate that information. I will be buying the "early bird special" pass.

This will be a bit of a bittersweet trip, tho'. My dear friend and former member of this board, Doug (PA24), had invited me to come stay with him and go to the show each day, only months before his accident and subsequent death two years ago. Maybe getting to meet a few of you will temper that.

Best, SRH

Why on earth do they hold these shows (e.g. SCI and Dallas) before the end of duck season??

I totally agree, LGF. At least I won't miss any of dove season. It goes out the 15th, I think.

SRH

Stan, please make it by the engravers section (FEGA). I for one would welcome the chance to meet you...and any other board members who attend.

I will put that on my list of stops Sam. Thanks for the invitation.

SRH

Stan, Doug had invited me as well and I had really looked forward to meeting you both in person. Rarely do I log on without thinking of Doug and our many phone conversations. What a treat to have been able to know him. I look forward to one day meeting you in the flesh.

What are the mechanics of purchasing a gun at the show if you are from out of state?

For fine doubles:
First: cash
Second: trade material and cash.
YRMV
Best Regards,
JBP

I went last year and had a great time. Lots of guns to choose from

Since I am retiring on the 6th of January I might actually get to attend this year!! I have been only twice in the past but each time was really an experience. On one trip a buddy of mine who went with me while our wives went shopping in Vegas got fitted by Dale Tate (?) for one of the Bill Hanus Birdguns (at least I think that was how they were marketed) in 16 gauge and it is still his primary bird gun today. I passed on the deal and have regretted it since, but I have made many good deals since so I can live with it!! Hope to see some of you there. My first time there I met Wonko!!

Tamid:

1. Move with the rest of the snow birds to Arizona



2. Nevada has an "adjacent state" provision with AZ. You may purchase a long gun from/through a FFL in Nevada as an AZ resident. You may not purchase a long gun from a private individual in NV as an AZ resident.

3. Otherwise the long gun must be transferred through a NV FFL to a FFL in your (U.S.) state.

4. No clue as to how to get the long gun to Canada...or Kalifornia

Vegas is the best vintage gun show in the US in my opinion. I have been going for 20+ years and have been very pleased with what I have sold and what I have purchased. There is more money walking this show looking for guns of all types than any other gun show I have attended. The debate on its decline and demise starts about this time every year and I think it pure nonsense. The only time I am unhappy with this show is on the plane ride home realizing it is 364 days until the next one.

Patrick

Thanks for all the comments on the quality of the show.

Now, a logistical question. When you fly out to Vegas for the show with the intention of buying, do you carry an empty airline case with you, so that you can fly the gun home with you? Do you buy one there, after the gun is yours?

SRH

When I purchased a pre-1898 hammergun from one of the exhibitors in Vegas, I had him ship the gun directly to me. Had it been a modern gun I would have had him send it to my FFL holder.

Stan, do you want me to bring the Reilly bar in wood pigeon gun? My table is with the Lefever Arms Collectors, so easy to find.

I think I've made the last ten years after missing perhaps forty five. I don't recall ever seeing airline compatible cases for sale, so I suggest you bring an empty. Always lots of temptation.

I plan on bringing an empty case. When you're flying SW and get 2 bags for free, why not? Good flight cases are expensive and not always easy to find. I will bring one that will fit 2 long guns. Stan you might find TWO live pigeon guns. That would cost you!

Thanks, Terry, but my mind is set on a 32" or longer barreled gun. I would love to see it, but don't want you to go to the trouble just for that. I will definitely be stopping by the LAC booth to speak to you and Daryl. And, I will either bring an empty case or I will have it shipped to me after the show. Haven't determined that yet.

If I find two pigeon guns that fit my specs, Bryan, I will just have more to choose from!!

Thanks all, SRH

Hi Terry,

I would like to see the Reilly pigeon gun.I will be in Vegas Thursday and Friday.

Stan, I 1980, I did something to make God angry so He made me live in Vegas for four years. During my penance, I attended the Antiques And Custom Gun Makers shows annually and enjoyed each and every one of them. I have returned several times since and enjoyed the Antique shows. No junk, no machine gunners, none of those things I suspect we both stay away from due to lack of interest. An area rarely discussed is the fine people you'll meet there.

In 2010 I met a tall thin beauty with skin the color of anthracite. When she told her family she was going to a gun show they all warned her it would be full of racist rednecks who would treat her like crap. When she came back to Atlanta, she told them all how wonderfully she had been treated by strangers in a strange city. The Southern was even better. Had to throttle her back, though. She found a twenty guage Syracuse LeFever for only $20,000 and was miffed when I said no way!

You'll meet the finest group of people you've ever known at that show and enjoy it immensely, especially since they've moved it from the Riviera, which she described as an old age home for fleas. As a side note, she has conquered her lust for a twenty guage LeFever. The bad news is she's discovered Lindners.

Have fun Stan. Hope you'll what you're looking for but if not, just enjoy the show.

Thanks, Cary. I'm sure I will.

All my best, SRH

OK, S x S 40, I'll have the Reilly under the table. I should set up around noon on Thursday.

Cary, although it is far from a high grade Syracuse 20, I just bought a Lindner made (Daly marked), D M Lefever side cocker patent 10 gauge. I suppose finding one in AA grade might tie your lady's interests together!

Hi Terry,
Do you still have that Reilly 10 bore I parted with several years ago?
Best Regards,
JBP
FYI , I bought my Lindner hammer Diamond 10 & sidecocker at the Bienfield show years ago. Great show and lots of good restaurants!

I need to talk with you J.B., about the good restaurants.

SRH

It's been a few years since my last visit, so I'm not up to what's currently available, but if you're into red meat, Craftsteak ( Mandalay Bay) and Prime ( Bellagio) were excellent . So many options ..... ask some of the vendors at the show, great opportunity to start a conversation and begin negotiations on that pigeon gun you're looking for!!
Best Regards,
JBP

Oh yeah, definitely. Unless the progressives have now declassified beef to be some other category of food.

Thank you. Hope to see you there.

SRH

I'm pondering between Craftsteak and Emeril's Delmonico...haven't been to either one but how can you go wrong?

Hi Terry,
Do you still have that Reilly 10 bore I parted with several years ago?
Best Regards,
JBP

No, that gun along with about 250 others went to Amoskeag's auctions which spread over a couple of years. I think the last two items (both Reiily percussions, a double gun and a revolver) were in the recent sale. That reduced my collection (hoard?) to a reasonable size, but I find I can't resist buying (a 60 year collecting habit) so am now back up to about 50-60 items I just could not live without.

Stan, worrying about dinner is a non issue for me. I am so worn out from the show that all I want to do is enjoy a drink and go to bed. I have never enjoyed a dinner with gun guys in Vegas, and most of the participants have agreed with me. Their comments are usually "never again". It isn't like the Southern or the Fall Southern.

Thanks, Bill. I will likely eat somewhere. I'm used to eating a late supper, being a farmer. Lots of evenings I don't eat until 8:30 or so. But, I'm not going to travel all over Las Vegas to get something.

SRH

Stan: I stay at the SpringHill Suites, right across the street. There is no casino, so it is quiet UNLESS they are hosting a bunch of EU military fellas as was the case last year
With the Concrete Is My Life convention in town, the rates unfortunately are high.
Decent dinner food in the lobby, and a nice breakfast buffet
http://www.marriott.com/hotels/travel/la...55-54ba596febe2

Have not yet decided if I'm coming, but if I do will bring my tools for barrel evaluations at my table.

I do hope you come, Drew. Was kinda counting on getting you to measure wall thickness if I find a pigeon gun I like.

I rise early and like a good breakfast. Let me know if you decide to go, please.

SRH

So, one other question has come to mind. Will there be a "map" of the show, showing who will be set up where, or is it kind of first come first serve on where people are set up, and you just figure it out as you go?

SRH

Yessir...they have programs that have all that info in them.

Thanks, Sam.

SRH

I don't know what my grumpy old friend Eightbore is talking about. The time Allan Swanson put together a couple of stretch limo loads of us PGCAers from the old Riviera to Smith & Wollensky's for dinner was pretty hard to beat. Kevin McCormack and me, the Lien boys with their Father, Ed & Nancy Muderlak as well as a number of other PGCA luminaries were in the group.

My favorite place to eat in Las Vegas is a little Sicilian dive on Tropicana, The Sicilian Ristorante. My Wife likes Habib's Persian Cuisine, on South Decatur, but we are usually there too early to get the best effect.

P.S. I didn't mean to imply that I should be included in PGCA luminaries.