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Posted By: Ted Schefelbein I hate it when this happens. - 09/03/17 09:45 PM
Some time back, I described the dismantling and cleaning of this old gun, an early Halifax Darne 12:







My intention was to clean it up a bit, reduce the awful trigger pulls, service it, and send it down the road to a new home. I have a different Darne that I'd like to restock. My work adjusting the triggers required me to bring it to the range, and check it with both barrels loaded, to see if there were any problems with doubling, or, partial hanging of the sears. I did manage to reduce the pulls from double digit numbers (my gauge only goes to ten pounds, and it was more than that) down to about the weight of the gun (as far as I was comfortable going on this example) with an extremely clean break.
I shot by myself, since, I was loading two rounds in the gun. I alternated barrels, and really didn't pay that much attention to shooting, just operating.
When it was over, I missed the number 2 bird, and ran the next 23 straight. I had hit number 1, for a score of 24.

Now what?

The gun features a perfect right handed safety button, while I am a lefty, a bit of right cast, and is a bit short for me. It is hard to argue with results, and I loath moving guns I shoot really well. A pad would correct the short LOP, the chambers could be lengthened to 2 3/4, or, left alone, and it would make a decent pheasant gun, my actual goal with the R10 restocking project.

Dang. The best laid plans....


Best,
Ted
Posted By: Geo. Newbern Re: I hate it when this happens. - 09/03/17 10:11 PM
Ted, I've heard of worse problems...Geo

I guess you could trade it in on something you wanted more or something?
Posted By: nialmac Re: I hate it when this happens. - 09/03/17 10:16 PM
Everyone should have your problems.
nial
Posted By: Stanton Hillis Re: I hate it when this happens. - 09/04/17 12:37 AM
There are better looking guns that you could shoot well too, Ted. wink

SRH
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: I hate it when this happens. - 09/04/17 02:32 AM
Worse, too, Stan. Form follows function. Thing is, there is some right handed guy out there, who could shoot lights out with this gun. Hell, a left handed guy came close, today. A truly right handed Darne, stock, safety, the whole shebang, is a rare item. As Argo has been digging up info on age of French guns, this one isn't exactly new, either-pre 1912. Really great condition, considering all the festivities in the first half of the last century in Europe.
I think it is a good looking gun, others do as well. As of right now, every comment on the topic is from a Darne believer, save, the one you put up.
The sculpted detonators disappeared in the 1920s, I've always thought they look cool. I'm partial to thin and pretty brunettes, too, but, not everyone feels the same, I'm sure.

Best,
Ted
Posted By: treblig1958 Re: I hate it when this happens. - 09/04/17 03:51 AM
Beautiful Darne Ted. You have a Darne that you had restocked in France that you shoot really well also because I remember you describing that high crossing fastball you crushed a few years back with it, but I take it this isn't that gun.

Is that a 12 gauge too?

Posted By: Rocketman Re: I hate it when this happens. - 09/04/17 04:15 AM
Dare I say it could be the dreaded honeymoon? Shoot some more clays with it and see what happens. "Let me sleep on it and I'LL GIVE YOU AN ANSWER IN THE MORNIN'."

DDA
Posted By: Humpty Dumpty Re: I hate it when this happens. - 09/04/17 09:27 AM
Originally Posted By: Ted Schefelbein
didn't pay that much attention to shooting, just operating.


I believe this is the key phrase. I also believe, if you could repeat the "just operating" part, you would shoot the same percentage with just about any other gun.

The problem is, one seldom can.
Posted By: Stanton Hillis Re: I hate it when this happens. - 09/04/17 10:19 AM
Originally Posted By: Ted Schefelbein
Worse, too, Stan. Form follows function. Thing is, there is some right handed guy out there, who could shoot lights out with this gun. Hell, a left handed guy came close, today. A truly right handed Darne, stock, safety, the whole shebang, is a rare item. As Argo has been digging up info on age of French guns, this one isn't exactly new, either-pre 1912. Really great condition, considering all the festivities in the first half of the last century in Europe.
I think it is a good looking gun, others do as well. As of right now, every comment on the topic is from a Darne believer, save, the one you put up.
The sculptured detonators disappeared in the 1920s, I've always thought they look cool. I'm partial to thin and pretty brunettes, too, but, not everyone feels the same, I'm sure.

Best,
Ted


All in fun, Ted. I know there are those who really like the looks of a Darne, but as far as function goes, if you can shoot the thing that well ............ it doesn't matter how it looks to anybody else. Pretty is as pretty does.

I imagine I could get to liking one just fine if I never missed with it.

Hmmm, did they ever make a 30" .410?

All my best, SRH
Posted By: L. Brown Re: I hate it when this happens. - 09/04/17 11:10 AM
Put the pad on, Ted . . . and you probably won't shoot it for crap!

I stumbled across a like new Miroku 20ga sxs years ago, brought back from Japan by a Navy vet who'd served there. Don't think I paid $500 for it. PG/DT/splinter. 28" barrels. M/F. Shot a straight with it, first round of skeet I shot. Immediately had the chokes opened because I didn't want birds reduced to the equivalent of the puffs of smoke hits I got on those clay birds. After which I never shot it anywhere near as well again.
Posted By: GLS Re: I hate it when this happens. - 09/04/17 12:48 PM
Stan, any barrel length could be made provided the buyer had the $$. http://gournetusa.com/darne1/model-v.html
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: I hate it when this happens. - 09/04/17 01:45 PM
Treb,
No, that is a different 12, a Darne R10 that Steve Bodio traded to me when he ordered his Darne R11 slug. I'm up to 5 Darnes at the moment, 3 are 12s:



When I got it from Mr. Bodio, the pistol grip stock had about 4" cut off of it, and the barrels had been backbored. It also has two pimple bulges, but, the wall thickness is about .060 where they are, and the makers said don't worry about it.

I haven't.

I shoot it well, but, it is choked Cylinder and IC, with 25" tubes, and is more useful for grouse than pheasant, although, I have used it for that.

When I get a bird at 40 yards, only the bird is more surprised than me. I have a few shooting handicaps, and try not to push my luck real hard.

The "Honeymoon" and "Operating" comments, above, are likely way more true than false.

I'll ponder this a bit. And, shoot some more. It is WAY cheaper to just shoot the Halifax, than to send an Darne R10 back to France for a new buttstock.

Larry, I didn't mention it, above, but, I ran it with a leather slip on pad. I used the Winchester low noise 2 3/4" load, even though the gun has tight, 2 1/2" chambers.

I crushed most of the targets. I have to work hard for good scores. This isn't my normal shooting.

Best,
Ted
Posted By: Wonko the Sane Re: I hate it when this happens. - 09/04/17 04:17 PM
Originally Posted By: Ted Schefelbein
The gun features a perfect right handed safety button, while I am a lefty, a bit of right cast,

and is a bit short for me. It is hard to argue with results,

and I loath moving guns I shoot really well. A pad would correct the short LOP, the chambers could be lengthened to 2 3/4, or, left alone, and it would make a decent pheasant gun, my actual goal with the R10 restocking project.
Dang. The best laid plans....
Best,
Ted


For reasons unknown to me, cosmically baffling, many people shoot ridiculously long LOP. Many years ago I fitted a gun with an adjusto for LOP buttplate. I found that I could sorta manage the thing all the way out to 16.5" but every gun I shoot well is pretty much at 14". You may want to consider some experimenting of your own. The gun is only better manageable in every imaginable way with a shorter LOP

just a thot
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: I hate it when this happens. - 09/04/17 04:58 PM
Originally Posted By: Wonko the Sane
Originally Posted By: Ted Schefelbein
The gun features a perfect right handed safety button, while I am a lefty, a bit of right cast,

and is a bit short for me. It is hard to argue with results,

and I loath moving guns I shoot really well. A pad would correct the short LOP, the chambers could be lengthened to 2 3/4, or, left alone, and it would make a decent pheasant gun, my actual goal with the R10 restocking project.
Dang. The best laid plans....
Best,
Ted


For reasons unknown to me, cosmically baffling, many people shoot ridiculously long LOP. Many years ago I fitted a gun with an adjusto for LOP buttplate. I found that I could sorta manage the thing all the way out to 16.5" but every gun I shoot well is pretty much at 14". You may want to consider some experimenting of your own. The gun is only better manageable in every imaginable way with a shorter LOP

just a thot


Dr. Sane,
And a good thought it is. However, long LOP guns usually don't live in these parts, although, you could easily be forgiven for not knowing about that, based on your location.

You see, the ice cometh. We typically hunt in it, as well.

If you lived here, you would likely be like everyone else, and be trying to figure a way out for about 3 of the 12 months. Native and long term residents typically come to understand a gun that fits exceptionally well in a T-shirt, can't even be mounted in T-shirt, Filson, Woolrich, and Carhart. The older one gets, the more pronounced the problem becomes.

Ask Larry Brown, if he is still with us. Old joints protest moving, and, moving in cold even more.

The school (factory) solution on a Darne is typically ad one cm of LOP over your regular measurement with a conventional double. Thus, although 14 1/2 seems about right, most will find they need a bit more on a Darne.

But, because winter is always coming, here, measure three times, and cut once.


Best,
Ted
Posted By: Rocketman Re: I hate it when this happens. - 09/05/17 02:26 AM
Honeymoon! Definitely a honeymoon. All the classic symptoms.

Say, are you all up north more subject to honeymoons or just more willing to admit it?

DDA - all in good fun ;-}
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: I hate it when this happens. - 09/05/17 10:28 AM
I seem to be more subject to "honey-dos", the list never ends....


Best,
Ted
Posted By: GLS Re: I hate it when this happens. - 09/05/17 11:36 AM
Ted, it's nice having a shotgun that the owner (custodian) will wear out long before the shotgun. That's a nice piece of wood you put on Steve's old gun. Gil
Posted By: HomelessjOe Re: I hate it when this happens. - 09/05/17 12:48 PM
Originally Posted By: Geo. Newbern
Ted, I've heard of worse problems...Geo

I guess you could trade it in on something you wanted more or something?


Maybe even another shiny Mossberg pumper...
Posted By: Shotgunjones Re: I hate it when this happens. - 09/05/17 06:04 PM
There are several perfectly rational possible explanations.

1. The gun has mystical powers and should be worshiped as a god.

2. Ted was abducted by aliens and the good score is all they allowed him to remember.

3. It's 'Nugunitis'.

I once agreed to sell a very clean 20 gauge Rem 31 to a friend. Never having shot the thing well, I agreed to meet the guy at a local club to do the deal. He wanted it for his son who was just getting old enough to start shooting. Worthy cause.

Naturally, I had to shoot a last line of trap with it. Scored 25, what else.

Being a man of my word, off it went anyway.

Kid turned out to not have the ability to focus on anything for more than 6 seconds that wasn't a video game. My friend did offer to sell it back.

I declined.
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: I hate it when this happens. - 09/05/17 09:45 PM
Hope the orphan shotgun Gods don't find out you declined.

You will hit nothing, ever again, if they do.

Gil,
That chunk of wood was worth more than the gun. It took Hervé less than two hours to fit it to the action, and then we ran it to the checkering studio.

I finished it at home.


Best,
Ted
Posted By: Shotgunjones Re: I hate it when this happens. - 09/05/17 09:57 PM
I never considered that.

Yet another excuse enters my arsenal.

'The curse of the 31'.
Posted By: BrentD, Prof Re: I hate it when this happens. - 09/07/17 01:57 AM
Next week, if you shoot a 17 with it, let me know what you want for it smile
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: I hate it when this happens. - 09/08/17 10:07 PM
Originally Posted By: BrentD
Next week, if you shoot a 17 with it, let me know what you want for it smile


I'll keep that in mind. Unfortunately, there are a few guys ahead of you.

And, I shot 22 with it, yesterday. Trap doubles, just for kicks.

I can say, it is not a skeet gun. Not my skeet gun, anyway.


Best,
Ted
Posted By: billwolfe Re: I hate it when this happens. - 09/08/17 10:56 PM
It's a very cool looking old Halifax, Ted. I find those push-through safety buttons a pain regardless of which side they're on. Someone who really knows his Darnes once shared a safety work around involving the action key. I'm trying to remember what it was.... Good luck working through this dilemma! Do let us know what you decide.

BW
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: I hate it when this happens. - 09/09/17 03:26 AM
Bill,
You can use the opening lever as a safety, if you keep it up to the point that there is just a bit of daylight between the breech and the barrels. The gun can't fire in that position. Some people find it easier to simply close the action at the flush, as opposed to manipulating the safety.

Best,
Ted
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: I hate it when this happens. - 02/03/22 01:44 AM
Sometimes, they come back...

I sold this gun to a guy I consider a friend, although I have never met him in person. He used it a few years, along with several others, a V21 and an R15. He has moved across country, and for many reasons doesn’t need the spread of guns he had before. He kindly contacted me first, and offered me first right of refusal.

I didn’t refuse.

This gun was built around the time the Titanic sank. It is a short chamber 12, choked about IC and IM. The barrel walls measure .056 thick at a point 9” from the breech, they are monsters, the guys at the factory loved thick barrels. 27 3/4” in length. Being newly right handed, I was very happy to get it back. I’d guess it has about 3/8ths of an inch of cast, and it comes up as well as anything else I am playing with at the moment, in my fidgety gun mount that needs work. It is so cold at the moment, practicing my mount is about all I can do. Still thinking about a pad, but, that would ruin any cold weather use of the gun, as it would be too long with my wool coat on. Cold weather screams 12 gauge.

Money shot, for Argo:

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]


Best,
Ted
Posted By: lonesome roads Re: I hate it when this happens. - 02/03/22 02:16 AM
Had to give jOe a like for that post on page two.

Originally Posted by Ted Schefelbein
Money shot, for Argo:

He should be recovered from that alcohol/meth induced rant from the deleted Miller thread.


______________________________
How’s school going, Toad?
Posted By: BrentD, Prof Re: I hate it when this happens. - 02/03/22 02:16 AM
Those who hunt in cold weather and make their own pads, make two. One for the cold, one for the heat.
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: I hate it when this happens. - 02/03/22 02:28 AM
Online, dude. Going well. Do it when I got a minute.

It’s free, you know.

Unlike that RBL you don’t use.

Best,
Ted

___________________________________________________
Ever check the chamber for reamer marks, Louie? Or, if the F-er actually works?
Posted By: lonesome roads Re: I hate it when this happens. - 02/03/22 02:36 AM
Originally Posted by Ted Schefelbein
Online, dude. Going well. Do it when I got a minute.

Hennepin Tech? When you have a minute? What, no more honey dews?


____________________________
It’s free!!! Toad S.
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: I hate it when this happens. - 02/03/22 03:15 AM
Originally Posted by lonesome roads
Originally Posted by Ted Schefelbein
Online, dude. Going well. Do it when I got a minute.

Hennepin Tech? When you have a minute? What, no more honey dews?


____________________________
It’s free!!! Toad S.

No, idiot, this place:


https://forestry.umn.edu/

Free ‘cause I work there. It ain’t East Lansing, but, what is?

Best,
Ted

_________________________________________________________________
You should really try it. Not school, or, work, but, pulling your head out of your ass.
Posted By: lonesome roads Re: I hate it when this happens. - 02/03/22 03:28 AM
Awesome. When do you graduate?


____________________________
You sound like my dad! lol!!!
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: I hate it when this happens. - 02/03/22 04:24 AM
Originally Posted by lonesome roads
Awesome. When do you graduate?


____________________________
You sound like my dad! lol!!!







Your Dad would have told you the RBL was dung, too.

Best,
Ted

_____________________________________________________________
Your Mom, I’m guessing, would have agreed.
Posted By: lonesome roads Re: I hate it when this happens. - 02/03/22 04:36 AM
Originally Posted by Ted Schefelbein
Originally Posted by lonesome roads
Awesome. When do you graduate?


____________________________
You sound like my dad! lol!!!







Your Dad would have told you the RBL was dung, too.

Best,
Ted

_____________________________________________________________
Your Mom, I’m guessing, would have agreed.

That shithole Mississippi marsh rat JR owned four of them.
Bit slow on the uptake I’d say. Probably an Ole Miss grad.


_____________________________
Grant facked Mississippi the F up.
Posted By: lonesome roads Re: I hate it when this happens. - 02/03/22 04:59 AM
Toad, when do you graduate?


___________________________
Are you taking any finance electives?
Does your “finance guy” still think oil is going to $200 by summer?
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: I hate it when this happens. - 02/03/22 12:21 PM
Originally Posted by lonesome roads
Toad, when do you graduate?


___________________________
Are you taking any finance electives?


Does your “finance guy” still think oil is going to $200 by summer?

I graduate when I finish. Tough concept for you to wrap your head around, I know.

RIG is up 20%.

Best,
Ted

_______________________________________________________________________
Chatter on the internet is big oil is better than CSMC. Mom and Dad can agree on that.
Posted By: HomelessjOe Re: I hate it when this happens. - 02/04/22 03:07 PM
Professor Teddy.
Posted By: lonesome roads Re: I hate it when this happens. - 02/04/22 03:37 PM
Tried liking your post, jOe. Apparently you have to log into Facebook now.

Originally Posted by Ted Schefelbein
RIG is up 20%.

You still holding that turd?

Originally Posted by Ted Schefelbein
I graduate when I finish.

You ever try that line on your dad? How’d it go?


______________________________
Chatter on the internet? You a Robinhooder?
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: I hate it when this happens. - 02/04/22 08:40 PM
Originally Posted by lonesome roads
Tried liking your post, jOe. Apparently you have to log into Facebook now.

Originally Posted by Ted Schefelbein
RIG is up 20%.

You still holding that turd?

Originally Posted by Ted Schefelbein
I graduate when I finish.

You ever try that line on your dad? How’d it go?


______________________________
Chatter on the internet? You a Robinhooder?


Dad would be thrilled to hear that, because he ain’t buying.

Best,
Ted

___________________________________________________________________
“Every time she looked at him, you know his momma cried”.

What he would have said aboot you.
Posted By: lonesome roads Re: I hate it when this happens. - 02/04/22 11:48 PM
Originally Posted by Ted Schefelbein
Dad would be thrilled to hear that...

Sort of explains why you’re a Teamster.


____________________________
Can you at least tell us your GPA?
Posted By: lonesome roads Re: I hate it when this happens. - 02/05/22 12:55 AM
Originally Posted by Ted Schefelbein
“Every time she looked at him, you know his momma cried”.





___________________________
I love rock and roll. Joan Jett
Posted By: lonesome roads Re: I hate it when this happens. - 02/05/22 02:00 AM
You better be online taking your classes, Ted.

Set an example for jr.

You don’t want him being a Teamster do you?


_____________________________
One for the meth head Argo.

Posted By: lonesome roads Re: I hate it when this happens. - 02/05/22 02:43 AM
One for that shithole Mississippi marsh rat JR




__________________________
Detroit Vs Everybody
Posted By: fab500 Re: I hate it when this happens. - 02/05/22 07:05 PM
Originally Posted by Ted Schefelbein
Sometimes, they come back...

I sold this gun to a guy I consider a friend, although I have never met him in person. He used it a few years, along with several others, a V21 and an R15. He has moved across country, and for many reasons doesn’t need the spread of guns he had before. He kindly contacted me first, and offered me first right of refusal.

I didn’t refuse.

This gun was built around the time the Titanic sank. It is a short chamber 12, choked about IC and IM. The barrel walls measure .056 thick at a point 9” from the breech, they are monsters, the guys at the factory loved thick barrels. 27 3/4” in length. Being newly right handed, I was very happy to get it back. I’d guess it has about 3/8ths of an inch of cast, and it comes up as well as anything else I am playing with at the moment, in my fidgety gun mount that needs work. It is so cold at the moment, practicing my mount is about all I can do. Still thinking about a pad, but, that would ruin any cold weather use of the gun, as it would be too long with my wool coat on. Cold weather screams 12 gauge.

Money shot, for Argo:

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]


Best,
Ted

Salut Ted,

L'Halifax est apparu pour la premiÚre fois en 1914. Il y avait deux modÚles : un n°5 et un n°6.
Ces deux armes étaient montées avec des bois en une seule partie (type 93). Plus tard, les crosses seront montées en deux parties sans séparative, comme le fusil sur la photo.

La sureté à poussoir sur ton fusil est un brevet Darne de 1921.
L'arme est passée au banc d'épreuve avant 1924.
Je daterais sa fabrication entre 1918 et 1923.
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: I hate it when this happens. - 02/05/22 08:42 PM
Bonjour, Fab! Merci pour l'information. Ce qui est intéressant à propos de ce Halifax, c'est que bon nombre des numéros de série sur le pistolet ne correspondent pas, comme s'il avait été construit à partir de piÚces. La gùchette était presque impossible à utiliser, et je les ai grandement améliorées. Prenez un moment pour regarder mon autre post « J'adore quand ça arrive » pour voir les photos du pistolet d'essai Darne. Se porter bien. Sinceres salutations Ted


English:

Hello, Fab!
Thank you for the information. An interesting thing about this Halifax is many of the serial numbers on the gun do not match, as if it was built from parts. The trigger pull was almost impossible to use, and I have improved them, greatly.
Do take a moment to look at my other post “I love it when this happens” to see the photos of the Darne try gun.

Be well.
Best regards
Ted
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: I hate it when this happens. - 02/05/22 08:54 PM
Argo,
This Halifax is clearly marked with 6.5 for the chambers, which, would tend to indicate construction prior to 1912 or so, based on what we guess about the use of that mark. The proof level, at single proof, would be my guess where Fab is taking his stab at the age, as the laws changed in 1924. See if you can clarify how he is drawing that conclusion on the date of the guns manufacture.

My French sucks. It comes back, a bit, when I use it, but I miss things in reading.

Best,
Ted
Posted By: HomelessjOe Re: I hate it when this happens. - 02/06/22 04:06 PM
Wee wee misoure.

Ted the tree hugging prOfessor....
Posted By: lonesome roads Re: I hate it when this happens. - 02/07/22 12:55 AM
Originally Posted by HomelessjOe
Wee wee misoure.

Ted the tree hugging prOfessor....

I’m taking these forestry courses on YouTube.



I hope by the time I graduate I can speak Hindi.


_____________________________
Ted probably finishing up the last of a 30 pack of PBR getting ready for his shyte Teamster job tomorrow.
Posted By: Argo44 Re: I hate it when this happens. - 02/07/22 01:05 AM
Salut Ted,

L'Halifax est apparu pour la premiÚre fois en 1914. Il y avait deux modÚles : un n°5 et un n°6.
Ces deux armes étaient montées avec des bois en une seule partie (type 93). Plus tard, les crosses seront montées en deux parties sans séparative, comme le fusil sur la photo.

La sureté à poussoir sur ton fusil est un brevet Darne de 1921.
L'arme est passée au banc d'épreuve avant 1924.
Je daterais sa fabrication entre 1918 et 1923.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Ted here is a translation of FAB's comment:

"The Halifax appeared for the first time in 1914. There were two models, a Nr 5 and a Nr 6. These two guns were equipped with a one-piece stock (type 93). Later the stocks were mounted in two parts without separation like the gun in the photo.

(comment: Don't understand the "without separation" business but this might be a Darne characteristic implying the relative location of the fore-end and stock proper...donno)

The push safety on your rifle is a Darne 1921 patent
The gun was proofed before 1924.
I dated its fabrication between 1918 and 1923.


I can't explain the 6.5 chamber marking and the projected 1918-1923 manufacture date. We dated the changeover from cm to mm definitively to summer 1912 per the only dated gun parts made in Saint-Etienne that I know of Didier-Drevet barrels. I'm wondering if some old barrels were sitting around and after WWI were reused or reproofed?
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: I hate it when this happens. - 02/07/22 01:40 AM
Gene,
I can get through most of Fabs French. I can usually write most of my own answer to him as well. What I’m trying to grasp is the discrepancies in the dating. I can’t grasp exactly where and why he gets the dates he uses, outside of the changes of proof house markings, and those were infrequent enough to be of limited use to dating the guns. They are also well documented. The knowledge of the start and stop usage of the 6.5 marking would be a huge tool for dating the damn guns, but, we can’t nail it down, exactly, which, is something I have chased on these guns for decades. I think we are going to find that the First World War disturbed and interrupted production in ways to confound accurate dating via the proof marks on the gun.

Newer Darne guns have a curved metal area between the two pieces of wood on the gun. This Halifax has a two piece stock, with the wood, front and back, meeting each other, with a thin decorative line cut into the wood where they meet. Guns older than this Halifax have a one piece stock. Fab refers to those one piece stock guns as a type 93, which, is a new one on me.Then, as now, getting a single piece of wood long enough and of high enough quality was more difficult.

Best,
Ted

_______________________________________________________________________________
Hindi, Hell, when Lonnie gets out of inner city Detroit nobody can understand his English.
Posted By: lonesome roads Re: I hate it when this happens. - 02/07/22 01:46 AM
Originally Posted by Ted Schefelbein
Hindi, Hell, when Lonnie gets out of inner city Detroit nobody can understand his English.

What are you talking’ aboot, Willis?

I see Argo is somewhat coherent this evening.

Put the pipe down, eh.


______________________________
Never mind the Baluchs, post some O’Reiley serial numbers, eh.
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: I hate it when this happens. - 02/07/22 02:05 AM
Originally Posted by lonesome roads
Originally Posted by Ted Schefelbein
Hindi, Hell, when Lonnie gets out of inner city Detroit nobody can understand his English.

What are you talking’ aboot, Willis?

I see Argo is somewhat coherent this evening.

Put the pipe down, eh.


______________________________
Never mind the Baluchs, post some O’Reiley serial numbers, eh.


Detroit’s finest, now that Stroh brewery is gone.




Best,
Ted

______________________________________________________________
Hocus Pocus, and you.
Posted By: Argo44 Re: I hate it when this happens. - 02/07/22 02:10 AM
Hey Ted, let's ask FAB:

Salut FAB, Pourrions-nous vous demander comment vous en ĂȘtes arrivĂ© Ă  cette conclusion? - "Je daterais sa fabrication entre 1918 et 1923." Nous nous intĂ©ressons particuliĂšrement Ă  l'effet de la guerre sur les Ă©preuves. Existe-t-il un moyen de diffĂ©rencier les marques d'Ă©preuve d'avant-guerre et d'aprĂšs-guerre ?

(Hi Fab, could we ask how you came to this conclusion? - "I dated its fabrication to between 1918 and 1923." We are particularly interested in the effect that the war had on proof-marks. Is there a way to differentiate between pre-war and post-war proof marks?)

FAB and I discussed the conundrum about the cm/mm changeover date. We are trying to do this by analysis when surely there is a record of this somewhere in Saint-Etienne. He wrote to the proof-house and never received a reply. I may have to ask in-laws to go up there and do some research.
Posted By: lonesome roads Re: I hate it when this happens. - 02/07/22 02:14 AM
Originally Posted by Ted Schefelbein
Detroit’s finest...




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Never mind the Baluchs, here’s the White Stripes.
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: I hate it when this happens. - 02/07/22 02:27 AM
Gene,
Good start. I get prior to 1924, as the marks changed, along with the laws.

I’ve been in the proof house in St. Etienne. It is a busy little hive. The proof master answered a few of my questions, translation provided by Herve’ Bruchet, and explained the place would have been off limits to me, if they had been proofing military guns that day (they weren’t). Then he went back to work.

Racks and racks of barrels for Verney Carron semi autos were lined up.

Best,
Ted

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Not exactly Prince you are bragging on there, Lugnutt.

Posted By: lonesome roads Re: I hate it when this happens. - 02/07/22 02:33 AM
Originally Posted by Ted Schefelbein
Not exactly Prince you are bragging on there, Lugnutt.

Are you some kind of [censored - come on man!]?


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Now The ‘mats, let’s talk.



(hard to pick a favorite)
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: I hate it when this happens. - 02/07/22 03:00 AM
Hard not to feel like Elmer Keith.....

Best,
Ted

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Hell, I was there.
Posted By: lonesome roads Re: I hate it when this happens. - 02/07/22 03:14 AM
Originally Posted by Ted Schefelbein
Hell, I was there.

Cleaning up the puke?

Good times in Mankato.


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Posted By: lonesome roads Re: I hate it when this happens. - 02/07/22 03:22 AM
Posted By: Argo44 Re: I hate it when this happens. - 02/07/22 03:24 AM
Ted, I think the answer will lie someplace else other than the proof house. Let's see who we can tap amongst the historical Stephanois researchers. Let me work on it. It's worth it.
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: I hate it when this happens. - 02/07/22 03:27 AM
Seeing the ‘Mats, in Mankato, would beat seeing the White Stripes in East Lansing, hands down.

The only puke in either case would be you.

Best,
Ted

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You could learn a lot from JR. But, selling that RBL is going to be tough. Word got out, you know?
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: I hate it when this happens. - 02/07/22 03:33 AM
Gene,
Getting hard answers was always tough on French guns. I think I’ve said it before, Good luck. You will need it.

Best,
Ted
Posted By: lonesome roads Re: I hate it when this happens. - 02/07/22 03:41 AM
Originally Posted by Ted Schefelbein
You could learn a lot from JR

Now that’s funny 😄.


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Shouldn’t you be online taking your forestry classes?

Posted By: HomelessjOe Re: I hate it when this happens. - 02/07/22 03:44 PM


Lay off the PBR....
Posted By: Run With The Fox Re: I hate it when this happens. - 02/07/22 06:00 PM
And just what might that "Word" be, Oh Tedster from the Midwest City with the airborne berets in the park- thanks to M.T. Moore-- Le Reynard
Posted By: fab500 Re: I hate it when this happens. - 02/08/22 09:38 PM
Originally Posted by Argo44
Hey Ted, let's ask FAB:

Salut FAB, Pourrions-nous vous demander comment vous en ĂȘtes arrivĂ© Ă  cette conclusion? - "Je daterais sa fabrication entre 1918 et 1923." Nous nous intĂ©ressons particuliĂšrement Ă  l'effet de la guerre sur les Ă©preuves. Existe-t-il un moyen de diffĂ©rencier les marques d'Ă©preuve d'avant-guerre et d'aprĂšs-guerre ?

(Hi Fab, could we ask how you came to this conclusion? - "I dated its fabrication to between 1918 and 1923." We are particularly interested in the effect that the war had on proof-marks. Is there a way to differentiate between pre-war and post-war proof marks?)

FAB and I discussed the conundrum about the cm/mm changeover date. We are trying to do this by analysis when surely there is a record of this somewhere in Saint-Etienne. He wrote to the proof-house and never received a reply. I may have to ask in-laws to go up there and do some research.

Salut Argo,

J'établis cette date de 1918 par déduction. Aucune marque particuliÚre n'est en mesure de la confirmer.
Comme je l'ai dit plus haut, le modÚle Halifax est apparu en 1914. Ce fusil était monté avec une crosse en seule partie.
Pendant le conflit 1914 / 1918, en France, la production des armes civiles a cessée. Et il est fort probable qu'à la reprise de l'activité 1918 /1919, cette crosse a été établie en 2 morceaux sans séparative en acier.
Posted By: fab500 Re: I hate it when this happens. - 02/08/22 09:42 PM
[Linked Image from i.goopics.net]

La séparative en acier est apparue entre 1931 et 1936.
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: I hate it when this happens. - 02/08/22 09:47 PM
Courtesy translation of Fab’s post:

Hi Argo, I set this date of 1918 by deduction. No particular brand is able to confirm this. As I said above, the Halifax model appeared in 1914. This rifle was mounted with a one piece stock. During the 1914/1918 conflict, in France, the production of civilian weapons ceased. And it is very likely that at the resumption of the activity 1918 / 1919, this butt was utilized in 2 pieces without steel separator.

The second post from Fab notes the steel divider appeared between 1931 and 1936.

That ends Fab’s input.



I have long looked for hard and fast rules to date the manufacture of French guns, but, each becomes a guess using clues that really only get us close.

Close, usually, is good enough.

Best,
Ted
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