I found this to be a highly interesting article, especially the technical parts where barrel assembly and finish are discussed. The article has the classic issue of pushing for a certain narrative at the expense of accuracy, so for example when they compare the prices to the London three they use the price of the titanium Fabbri to give an impression that it's more expensive, when they should have either used the price of the stainless steel Fabbri or compared the titanium one to the Purdey Damascus. Also the actual number of guns produced a year is probably a bit higher but certain gunmakers -not unlike watchmakers- like to promote smaller numbers to appear more exclusive. Still a good read and hope you enjoy it

http://www.thefield.co.uk/shooting/fabbri-italian-gunmakers-26748

I enjoyed the article. Having worked on dozens of Fabbri's over the years, I must say they are incomparable in quality and consistency. They are heavy guns made to stand up to lots of shooting, and more specifically, killing pigeons.

It is most satisfying to restock or restore one. They are always worth the effort, and the price of a restock is inconsequential compared to the value of the gun.

Thanks for sharing the link.

You're welcome James. If you ever talk to them ask them why they won't employ their know-how and machinery to create rifles as well, even in O/U form only. That would be a very interesting weapon!

Beautiful guns he builds. Wasn't Ivo Fabbri a business partner of Daniele Perazzi?

To much history of top tier performance behind the English guns making it hard to compare. Just look at Creed's Moor where the Rigby muzzleloaders easily outshot our best breechloaders. (But because of a mistake by an Irish shooter they lost on the last shot) A rifle built by George Gibbs or James Purdey could and would have done the same.

Says it clearly in the second section of the article the OP posted the link to.

" Ivo Fabbri founded the company in 1968, eight years after he began working with Daniele Perazzi. Their dreams differed. Perazzi wanted to create the best competition gun in the world, something he realised incontrovertibly at the London 2012 Olympics, when Perazzis won 12 out of the 15 shotgun-sports medals. Fabbri, however, was inspired by the traditions of London gunmaking and simply wanted to make the best.
What comprises “the best” is a moot point. The classic definition is a gun that cannot be improved by additional time or expense and it’s one that has served the Mayfair makers well. But they use methods and materials that differ little from when they were founded centuries ago. Computer numerically controlled (CNC) machine tools now do much of the basic work but the factories still resemble Victorian workshops in form and function, with metal-to-metal tolerances checked with soot from a blacking lamp. Yet, with steel, wood and a thousand man-hours, London continues to fashion the world’s best guns – or at least, the best in traditional gunmaking. For, with the exception of the Purdey Damas, which uses a powdered steel process to create a gun with great strength but with Damascus patterning, British bests have not embraced new materials. In contrast, Fabbri rejoices in them."
SRH

That's correct. Just like fine watches, incredible ones come out of Germany, but the Swiss will always have a rich history and pedigree that no one would capture. Britain is where these guns were developed and perfected over the past 200 years, and Fabbri, H&W, or Peter Hofer will never posses that magic. That's on top of the fact that every time one of those makers builds an O/U they mount the barrels on bifurcated lumps as designed by Boss and Woodward, and every SxS they make will have barrels secured by the under-bolt designed by Purdey, all being opened by the spindle designed by William Scott.

The climate is nice people have goods spirits and are fun-loving and friendly. This Fabbri product look like top notch quality work of art that can be used for shooting. It looks to me like fine place for a detour after buying some custom tailored clothing and footwear in Milano. Thank you for the wonderful link.

I think the French and the Germans, especially the French, had far more input into the development of firearms than the English.

Performance, and their remarkable record of performance, that is the key to the English predominance.

Valid claim indeed, and it depends on how one weighs different features. Breech loading and self contained cartridges came from France, yet put against things such as the aforementioned three designs plus the self opening mechanisms and Boss's single trigger etc. the British will have a very good case to make

Their preeminent position is due to marketing.

Many English patents and designs were preceeded by French patents and design sometimes by as much as decade or two. A good example...The "jones" underlever and bolting system having been designed, patented, and used in France well before Jones thought of it, let alone filed for a patent. English gunmaking was very much like BASF....they made good things better.

This article alludes to how H&H bettered designs to achieve their status. H&H

I disagree, performance under the harshest conditions brought them to predominance and long before the breechloader showed up.

Great article. Thanks for the link! The H&H action is copied widely because of its simplicity. The Beesley action on the other hand is a thing of beauty and mechanical ingenuity, but only a small number of makers copied it because of its complexity. I used the Beesley action it extensively, and the self opening action is so positive the gun literally opens itself and ejects upon pushing the lever.

Fabbris seem to stand up to hard use. I have examined several that have been used intensely in Trap shooting for decades and are still tight. Cannot really compare though since other "best" are almost never seen in target work.

Shotgunlover, Why are they that durable? Do they have wider bearing surfaces? Are certain friction points hardened or treated? Thanks

This is what I consider hard use.

Mr. Coetsee worked for the Game Department in Southern Rhodesia. His responsibilities included the control of problem animals and the control of the spread of the Tsetse Fly disease. Between 1964 and 1970 the .500 Hollis was to be used almost exclusively on elephant control in the then Southern Rhodesian Game department. On the southern banks of the Kariba Dam especially, elephant carriers of the Tsetse fly had to be controlled to limit the spread of the disease and in the Gokwe and Omay Tribal Trust areas, problems with bull elephant crop raiders kept the rifle in regular usage.

The .500 rifle became well known to VIP foreign guests of the then Prime Minister Mr. Ian Douglas Smith during hunting safaris conducted in the Gokwe area. Among the dignitaries was the late sir Archibald James from London whom hunted his last elephant (accompanied by Mr. Coetsee) at the age of about 80 years. The late Prime Minister, John Voster of South Africa and many dignitaries from the USA, Germany and South Africa were also accompanied during hunts using the same rifle


Of his rifle, Mr. Coetsee said 'the Hollis .500 served me well, having put down about 1000 elephants with brain shots, many buffalos and a considerable number of lions. Bull elephant that were shot with this rifle ranged from 50lbs. per side to 100lbs. per side.'

The Alfred Hollis double rifle was probably built by Henry Leonard of Birmingham.

But, back to Ivo Fabbri.

High end Italian guns are simply made of quality materials. Perazzi and Beretta trap guns typically consume tens of thousands of rounds with nothing more than wear to the locking bolt. My oldest Perazzi is from 1972 and I have no way of guessing how much it was shot prior to my acquisition but I shot it exclusively for several years and put untold thousands of shells thru it. AFAIK the locking bolt in it remains original. Expecting less of a Fabbri ???

From the lack of responses on their personal opinions or experiences with a Fabbri doesn't seem like a lot of people on this board own one. Of course they only make a few guns a year so that cuts the odds way down.

I've seen 1 guy here that hunts with one.

I've only looked inside 1.
Starting with the best materials in the world.
Vacuum arm melted steel for the barrels as an example.

And then running an optimized design. Geometry's, axis', radii, clearances, on the metal side,

and then optimizing the manufacturing processes,
and then covering all that up with Rizzini quality finishing processes, Purdy quality stock work,
and Bank note engraving.
you get a Fabbri.

The dependability for high volume is kind of a three legged stool of material, design, and processing.

My friend from the Texas rolling plains shoots one for quail, and doves I think, in 20 gauge. I have another friend who shoots one of Billy Perdue's old pigeon guns, also a Fabbri.

When that rich uncle of mine dies and leaves me everything I will, too.

SRH

With the pre-owned guns pulling $60K+ and new ones around $250K the likelihood of a Fabbri owner visiting this place is small I would think.

just a thot

Hehe....that's funny Wonko. This is the poor man's forum. Well, I certainly qualify to be a member then and I certainly can't afford a Fabbri.

For a look at what my friend from the Rolling Plains shoots doves and quail with, see this old thread. Oh, and he is a contributing member here, his nom de plume is Mel5141.

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...true#Post430814

SRH

I'm pretty sure you mean "vacuum arc remelted steel" as opposed to what you typed.

3 pages and nary a mention of Phoenix steel in the barrels. Not only poor, but, perhaps not all that well read.


Best,
Ted

I didn't mention the Phoenix debacle because they've spent 40 years trying to bury it.
I'd prefer to mention how they can now put a 20 gauge shell down the tube and touch off a pigeon load behind it, without barrel failure.

CZ, the deliberate firing of a gun with a 20 gauge shell down the tube can be done with a Benelli pump or a Baikal MP-18 single shot without barrel failure. Gil

That is so impressive, no matter the gun, a Benelli or a Fabbri....and certainly WAY beyond the call of duty.

Although I am not in a position to purchase a Fabbri, even used, I am a professor of mechanical engineering with a strong interest and much experience in predicting and analyzing stress related failures.

I would appreciate any and all information that forum members might be able to contribute on the Phoenix steel related failures mentioned. It could expand my knowledge and also serve as interesting "real world" information for class discussion.

There was no "debacle" and a single gun had a barrel failure. Nor has there been any attempt to "bury" the story as it is well known. There are as well a number of Fabbri guns still out there and in use with the same run of steel in the barrels. The current prices on them might be lower due to the rep but the market is hardly flooded with them. And I don't even know if the prices are lower. Twenty years ago or so I saw one of the guns for sale at the Vegas show. It was so vile and unliked that the price was only $38K.

The barrel failure was never explained as most barrel failures are not. K80's blow-up all the time and no one cares either.

Here you go Wonk.
And whether you like it or not, the issue (which I believe is Looong in the past) nearly put them out of business.
And of course, people have been asking and posting about that issue here for almost 20 years that I know of.
SSM did an article about Milius' patronage of them in I think 2001 IIRC.

https://books.google.com/books?id=olCYCA...eel&f=false

And here is an opinion on their relative value from a well known source.

I believe Mr. McIntosh reported three failures in an article he wrote, but, that was a long time ago. He poo-pooed the notion of continued failures as well, but, didn't own one, Phoenix marked, or, otherwise.

That said, exploding H&R Toppers, at $159, are unacceptable. When it is a Fabbri or a K80, it is no more or less acceptable


Yeah, nobody cares about exploding K80s, EXCEPT maybe the guys shooting them.


Best,
Ted

According to Lippard, two guns had barrel failures. One a documented obstruction and the other reputedly had bubbles in the steel revealed by metallurgic testing. Phoenix steel was used in thousands of Italian made guns at the time and Fabbri getting two bad blanks can only be the worst of luck.
If one of the Phoenix barreled Fabbri guns came my way I would be delighted to shot it with any kind of loads whatever and feel no qualms. I suspect that two or three, maybe more even, of my Perazzis have Phoenix steel in them being of the same era.
BFD