Verney-Carron Heliduplex S X S - The DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com

Gents, Anyone have any info on this model,other than the 1939 catalog on the Internet? This is a full sidelock 12 ga. game gun,H&H style, with all the bells and whistles.Apparently ,it was VC's top of the line before WW2.Thanks, Sandlapper

Heliduplex does not appear in the 1922 V-C catalog, although they did offer 3 hammerless sidelock models at that time. Sounds like a very nice gun. You don't see very many V-C sidelocks.

Thanks Larry for the info. This gun is on the way to me,but I do know it has chopper lumps, Screw grip third fastener, Southgate ejectors,sideclips,art. front trigger,Completely gold plated internals, and 100 % deep scroll with oak leaves in relief.Wood ain't bad either.Regards, Marcus

Be sure to post photos when it shows up! Sounds very nice.

H�lice-Grip Verney - Carron 17 Cours Fauriel St. Etienne
H�licobloc Verney - Carron 17 Cours Fauriel St. Etienne

Interesting list.......

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=448156&page=all

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Is this a s/n list or something else? I know this gun had to have been made between 1922 &1940,but will give you further details when it arrives. Thanks, Marcus

Raimey, if those are meant to be dates when those model names appeared, the list is inaccurate. The 1922 V-C catalog includes the trademarks Helice-Grip and Helicobloc.

Mr. Brown, not sure about the dates but rather it relates a maker to the associated tradename.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Originally Posted By: ellenbr

Mr. Brown, not sure about the dates but rather it relates a maker to the associated tradename.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Aha. Thought the dates might have meant something.

The list of "Helice" associated names used in France came from this line:

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...8156#Post448156

It was posted by "Neltir" on a French website. Here is the quote:

The word/action "HELICE" was never patented...it was a generic term.

Neltir is poster on a French double gun website. He was employed for many years in St Etienne gun business and retired in 2007. He posted this post on the website explaining to French shooters what the meaning of Helice is.

http://www.passionlachasse.com/t17209-fusil-helice

I will paraphrase what he said and will enter the entire translation if needed:

Helice is just a helix screw, a method of locking a center-break gun. Helice locks were used from the beginning in center break guns but especially in under-lever guns

"With the invention of the box lock and side lock and more powerful powder, additional locks were needed. In 1894 Webley came up with a triple lock system and moved the locking lever on top of the breech, aesthetically a master stroke.

Verny Carron in St. Etienne took this idea, simplified it and added a fourth lock. VC patented this in 1896 using the variants of Helice...including the name HELICOBLOC or HELISTOP and HELICE-GRIPP. However the name HELICE was never patented by anyone,..it was generic.

Because of the popularity of the Webley and VC locks, everyone piled in and began using the word �HELICE � on their release lever, usually stamped and in raised letters, often combined with the name of the gun maker or the initials and some form of word added to HELICE to make it a compound name.

He added: "It is well known that only one single long gun (ed: a complete gun, not an action) was patented under the mark �HELICE"; I was the long gun fabricated by Marcel Philippon. And following that a multitude of arms makers baptized their actions using a prefix HELICE (and variants) while adding their names or initials onto the breech combining it with HELICE."

He then attached this list of various names used by French gun-makers employing the word HELICE taken from a book by Maurice Forisier, which was given to him by his old workmates/collegues from the armorie school when he retired in 2007 (list looks incomplete since is appears to include only St Etienne armorers..others seemed to have joined in the Heli naming and etching craze).

Raimey
I am a bit perplexed
Please assist
Who made this shotgun? Is this a V-C?

Thank you VERY much
Mike

Mike, VC patented "HELICE-GRIP" according to that list. Your's has an extra "P" along with the word 'Brevete" (patent). If some maker were side-stepping or piggy-backing on the VC patent..adding a second "P" would be close enough for a law-suit it would seem. So I figure the VC patent was actually HELICE-GRIPP (with the second "P") - especially with the word "Brevete." "Neltir" would know. I may have to go on that French board to tap into his knowledge. But we all can assume your's is a true VC. Gene Williams

Wait a minute...now I'm not so sure. by far the most references to the VC patent use the spelling "Helice-Grip" (sans a double "P"). Here are two articles on VC referring to "HELICE-GRIP"...without the double "P":

And yet this French catalog book - Gastinne Renette (Paris) 1940 Gun Catalog - has a chapter labeled "Helice-Gripp".
http://www.cornellpubs.com/old-guns/item_desc.php?item_id=297

And a post on a French board: http://blackpowderonly.forumactif.org/t9662-le-16-de-pierrot
MessageSujet: Le 16 de Pierrot Dim 4 D�c 2016 - 18:38
Salut les amis, Je vous pr�sente le 16 (cadeau de ma Belle-M�re, il y a plus de 30ans) de l'arri�re Grand-P�re de ma femme: Verney-Carron Hammerless H�lice-Gripp Mod 1937. Il est quasi du neuf, 16 chambr� 65 et peut tirer du 67 et a un canon r�ducteur pour du 12mm. Je n'ai tir� qu'une fois et ne suis pas chasseur.

And there are advertisements in "L' Union Agricole" in July, August etc 1922 for "Helice, Gripp"
http://mnesys-viewer.archives-finistere....2_07_29_004.pdf

What can one say except "Vive la France."

See reference to VC Heliduplex in the "Arms du Chasse" catalog table of contents posted above.

Heliduplex was mentioned in 1931-32 VC Catalog: http://www.naturabuy.fr/CATALOGUE-ARMURERIE-VERNEY-CARRON-1931-1932-item-3232508.html

Livres et revues de Chasse > Revues de Chasse
Etat de l'objet : d'occasion
CATALOGUE VERNEY-CARRON 1931/32 134 PAGES COMPLET SANS MANQUE
HAMMERLESS VERNEY-CARRON
HELIDUPLEX
FUSILS A CHIENS FUSILS RENFORCES
CARABINES TYPE LEBEL ECT...
REVOLVERS
ARMES DE DEFENSEECT...
CARTOUCHES REGARGEMENTS CARNIERS FOURREAUX MIRIORS AUX ALOUETTES ACCESSOIRES DIVERS....

Sale at a French Auction: http://cdn.interencheres.com/medias/g/7/...dd0357866bf.pdf
385 Fusil de chasse juxtapos� Verney Carron mod�le HELICE GRIP "HELIDUPLEX" en coffret, mod�le � bloc grav� acier diamant ARTICLE 43 (LOI N�2013-700 DU 30 JUILLET 2013) L�acquisition par des personnes majeures des armes et de leurs �l�ments de la cat�gorie C
et du 1� de la cat�gorie D est subordonn�e � la pr�sentation d�une pi�ce d�identit�, d�un
permis de chasser d�livr� en France ou � l��tranger ou de toute autre pi�ce tenant lieu de permis de chasser �tranger, accompagn� d�un titre de validation de l�ann�e en cours ou de l�ann�e pr�c�dente ou d�une licence en cours de validit� d�une f�d�ration sportive ayant
re�u, au titre de l�article L. 131-14 du code du sport, d�l�gation du ministre charg� des
sports pour la pratique du tir ou du ball-trap. LES ARMES DE CHASSE ET DE TIR MODERNES
SONT VENDUES EN L�ETAT ET SANS GARANTIE POUR QUELQUE CAUSE QUE CE SOIT.

If I am not mistaken, the letters "SGDG" imply that a patent has been applied for, but, not necessarily issued at the time of production.

Mike, I think it would be very odd if your gun was produced by VC, if it has no markings of any type from VC. I suppose it is possible the gun was sold in the white out the back door at VC and then finished up by someone else.

Best,
Ted

1931-32 VC Catalog....it was spelled "Helice-Grip" without the second "p."

"Ce qui veut � la fois tout dire et rien dire parce que cette � H�lice � ne fut jamais une marque � part enti�re, mais un syst�me de fermeture formalis� par Verney-Carron en 1896, et brevet� par cette c�l�bre enseigne en 1918 (H�lice-Grip et H�licobloc, H�listop), abondamment copi�, ce qui valut quelques proc�s, et devint un grand classique de l'armurerie st�phanoise, quand le brevet tomba dans le domaine public, et ce, jusque dans les ann�es 70"

"(1): les Ets Savin en firent cependant jusque dans les ann�es 80.
(2): l'auteur, quand il commen�a � chasser en 1968, se souvient qu'il y avait comme armuriers dans notre r�gion : Fontaine � Granville, Piel et Lhoutellier � Avranches, Bourgeois � St-Hilaire...et bien d'autres tout autour ! Ils �taient armuriers mais aussi marchands d'articles de p�che, de coutellerie, de quincaillerie, de v�los.
(3): les Ets Marcel Philippon p�re et fils de 1933 � 1964 firent ainsi, tout comme Gaucher (connu pour ses petites carabines 22 ou de jardin) des mod�les � triple et m�me quadruple verrouillage ! Zavattero sur son Cynea avait des canons Heurtier, de grande renomm�e.
(4): m�me si se d�veloppent les � Magnum � (chambr�s en 76), et les � Super-Magnum � (en 89), entre autres pour le gibier d'eau. Ces derniers envoient de 42 � 64 grammes de plomb contre 36 en moyenne pour le 70. "

GRIPP HELICO-

"Photos : � gauche, un artisanal qui annonce clairement la couleur avec "fermeture H�lice". A droite un Verney-Carron ayant d�velopp� son propre syst�me "Gripp H�lico". On remarquera dans un cas comme dans l'autre la qualit� des gravures, notamment sur les coquilles du Verney-Carron. A noter que cette grande marque existe toujours �tant d'envergure internationale avec une production tr�s diversifi�e qui va des fusils d'usage, bas et moyenne gamme (fabriqu�s pour la plupart en Turquie) aux armes fines de tr�s haut niveau, dans son "Atelier Verney-Carron", toujours bas� � St-Etienne, berceau de l'armurerie fran�aise. Autres fabricants bien pr�sents sur le march� : Chapuis...mais on refait maintenant des Darne, des "Robust" (mais pas au m�me prix qu'autrefois), et continue d'exister le Bretton, dont on finira bien par vous reparler un de ces jours. "

http://fcm25.canalblog.com/archives/2015/01/06/31267521.html

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=231255&page=1

BREVETE - SGDG - - Sans Garantie du Gouvernement( 'brevets sont d�livr�s sans examen pr�alable, aux risques et p�rils des demandeurs, et sans garantie soit de la r�alit�, de la nouveaut� ou du m�rite de l�invention, soit de la fid�lit� ou de l�exactitude de la description ')

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

1891 Advert - Article

"Le T � h�lice et double gripp est un perfection-nement de ce syst�me."

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

"On the Helice Elite BT� SGDG toplever, does the Mono-D�tente, BF in a rhombus, BT� SGDG describe the "stop" as we've come to know it?"

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=369964&page=all

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Some translation
Photos : on the left, a craftsmen which clearly announces the color with "propeller closure". Right hand A Verney-Carron having developed its own system "Gripp H�lico". It will be noted in the one case as in the'Other The quality of engravings, in particular on the shells of the Verney-Carron.

Raimey, that article only got two stars on the net. Neltir had I think a better analysis.

"Brevete S.G.D.G." "brevet� sans garantie du gouvernement" - Patented Without Guarentee of the Government". French distinction that designates a technical patent in the U.S. sense, as opposed to trademark and the old design patent number system that dealt only with name and shape, which are designated by the French government as "d�pos�"

Not sure just yet, but is there a reference that attributes the owner of the trademark "GRIPP HELICO"?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

http://www.chassepassion.net/le-forum/2/19414

Probably the same double?

A. Maisonnial - Royal Super Steel - Acier Superieur Triple Epreuve - Special Pour Pyroxylee

So PYRO would denote Pyroxylee?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Looks like we're dealing with three topics at the same time:
1) VC heliduplex - the original question.
2) Skeetz's "Helice-Gripp" and whether it is actually VC.
3) the whole topic of "Helice" (generic Helical) and it's multitude of permutations.

Argo,
Thanks for that.

Best,
Ted

Yeah, why chase one rabbit when you can chase three? Seems that the term GRIPP HELICO is seen on wares of A. Maisonnial, so he might be the owner of the term GRIPP HELICO??? Would A. Maisonnial & Maisonnial Aim�, 13 rue Cl�ment Forissier be the same person or entity? I guess in a nut shell our questions are centred on the terms Grip & Gripp and their derivations.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

This might be Sandpiper's gun - it's quite beautiful and it's sold and now I have to look for one - maybe in France.

http://www.dawsonsdoubles.com/details.php?ID=4169

And from the pictures the lock has both Heliduplex and Helice Grip (one "P") - which may answer two of the above three questions.

The 1939 VC catalog was previously posted here:

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...3069#Post453069

Here is the page on Heliduplex:

And here is the page on Helice-Grip (one "P")

Given that VC used "Helice Grip" as early as 1922, I doubt that "Gripp Helico" is theirs. Someone using the Helice system, and having selected a name close to "Helice Grip", possibly to convince buyers that it's a VC gun.

Fellows,I just logged on after several days and found the additional info on the Helice grip guns. I got the Verney Carron gun and it is the gun Dawson had referenced in the above photo. I will try to post pictures later, but for now, I will say that is definitely a best, with all the usual best features which I mentioned in the previous post. The S/N I'm not sure about. The only no. that is on all three parts, is T3. The water table has the no. 884,along with T3,the VC trademark,and Acier Diamont. The barrels have on the flats the words Trempe, verney-carron integralbloc, Vercar stamp and 70, which I assume means 2 3/4" chambers,which the barrels have.T3 is the only other marking other than St. Etienne proofs.the barrels are chopper lump as stated previously. The gun appears to possibly be a live pigeon gun, as it weighs 7 1/3 lbs. and has a non auto safety ,along with 2 3/4 chambers.Can anyone give me any idea when it might have been made,other than pre-war?

Sand - if you'd like I can translate the catalog entries for you. Both the entries for Heliduplex and the entry on Helice-Grip. Mostly of it is advertising hype but it might give you an idea about the history of your gun. Also, you might write to the factory on the provenance. French people can be most helpful (outside of Paris). (and if you tire of it..please let me know).

Thank you Argo for your willingness to help. I believe I will write to V-C and see what I can find out, and yes, a translation of the catalog description would be most helpful. Do you think T3 could possibly be the S/N? I don't know how many of these they built but it couldn't have been too many.T3 is the only mark that is on all three components of this gun. Assembly no. possibly? Regards,Sandlapper

Sand, I'm making progress on the translation - nothing much to help you so far in dating your Heliduplex except perhaps the date of the adoption of "Vercar" as a Verney-Carron trademark - 1930? first, here are a few French gun/shotgun terms that I picked up reading French gun ads that might help along the way - more to follow: (Larry, Raimey, etc. - please correct any that are wrong) (I've left off the articles - le or la...to allow easier use):

Anson et Deeley - box lock
Armes de poing - hand guns
Armes d�epaule - long guns
Armurerie - armory, gun shop
Artisan - artisan
Bande - rib
Prolongement de la band - extension of the rib (to the receiver)
Bascule - receiver
Bois - wood
Bois de noyer - walnut
Noyer blonde - blond walnut
Boitier - housing
Brisure, a - top break, center break fire arm
Broche type - pinfire
Canon - barrel
Canons juxtapos� - double barrel; SxS
Canon raye - rifled barrel
Canons superpos�s - over/under
Canon lisse - smoothbore
Cartouches � plombs - shot shell
Cartouches � balle - slug
Charni�re - hinge, pivot
Chien - hammer
Chiens ext�rieurs - external hammers
Cle top; Cle a top - top lever key
Cl� d�ouverture top lever - top lever key
Cl� sur le dessu - top lever key
Corne - horn (as for butt plate material)
Crochet - lock or hook
Crochet du canon - barrel lock
Crosse - stock
Crosse anglais - English stock
Crosse � joue - stock with cheek piece
Crosse pistole - pistol grip stock
Culasse - gun bolt
Damasquin�e - damascened
Demi-coquelle - half cock (for hammer guns)
Detente - trigger
Devant - forestock
Double detente - double tigger
double verrou de fermeture - double locking bolt
�jecteurs automatiques - automatic ejectors
Epreuves - proof
Banc d��preuves - proof house
Double-epreuves - double proofed
�tranglement - choke
Feu centre - centerfire
Forage - bore (barrel)
Fusil - rifle/firearm
Fusil de chasse - shotgun
Fusil a percussion - muzzle loading, percussion rifle
Gachette - trigger
Gachette interruptrice - trigger safety
Gravure - engraving
Goupille - pin
Goupille de charni�re - hinge pin
Illisible - illegible
Juxtapos� - side-by-side
Levier de s�curit� - safety lever
Longuesse - forestock
Longuesse a poussoir - pushrod (forestock with pushrod release)
Massif - water table..holds the barrel locks
Moul�e - molded
Or - gold
Or fin - fine gold
Percussion central - center percussion, center fire (hammer gun)
Piece d'armurerie - piece of firearms manufacture
Plaque de couche - butt plate
Platine - side lock
Platine arri�res - back side-locks
Platine en avant - front side-locks
Platine encastre - embedded side-locks
Poin�ons - stamp (proof stamp)
Poin�ons r�glementaires - legal stamps
Pontet - trigger guard
Pontet � volutes - trigger guard with volutes
Poudres sans fum�e - smokeless powder
Poussoir - push rod (forestock)
Rallonge de crosse - stock extension
Ray�s � chargement par la bouche - muzzle loader
Ressort - spring
S�ret� - safety
Stephanois - from Saint-Etienne region
Type anglais - English style
Verrou - lock
Verrou de fermeture - closing lock
Verrouillage - locking system

translation of the right page (Heliduplex model 641) - French in blue.

Hammerless - hammerless
Heliduplex - trademark lock
Platine d�montables. removeable side-plates
Ejectors automatic - automatic ejectors

Succursales - sale rooms

CANON - barrel
INTEGRALBLOC - VC trade name for combining barrels and barrel rib extension and barrel locks
TREMPE. - tempered

Veritables platines d�montables - true removable side-plates

HELIDUPLEX No 641, a ejecteur automatique, Fusil Hammerless a platines d�montables
HELIDUPLEX model number 641 with automatic ejectors; Hammerless gun with removable side-plates.

Canons Integralbloc (see pages 10, 11 and 12).
Integralbloc barrels (VC trademark process where-by the barrel locks and are cast onto each barrel then welded together - I�ll translate that separately)

Quality special extra-sup�rieure tremp�e marque Vercar.
Special quality extra-superior tempered barrels of the mark �Vercar.�

Demichoke a droite. choke plein a gauche.
Modified (1/2) choke on the right; full choke on the left

Forage perfection avec polissage int�rieur Longitudinal.
Perfect bores with longitudinally polished interiors

Bande stri�e d�croissante avec prolongement s�encastrant dans la bascule.
Straight unvarying rib with the prolongation imbedded in the receiver.

Fermature a double Helice, syst�me brevets.
Patented Double Helice closing system.

Piece de bascule en acier au creuset, marque Acier Diamant.
Receiver made in �Acier Diamant� compressed steel. (see catalog description of the process)

Platines d�montables avec gachettes Interruptrices.
Disassembleable sidelocks with sear safeties.

�jecteur automatique.
Automatic ejectors.

Devant de bois remontant a poussoir.
Wooden fore-stock removed by push lever.

Poignet et devant quadrilles.
Pistol grip and fore-stock checkered in the Quadrilles system.

Mecanisme de s�ret� paralysant a volonte l�action des detentes.
Safety mechanism which prevents the movement of the trigger.

Epreuve poudre T.
Proofed for �T� powder. (Larry can describe what this means)

Ciselures aux coquilles et gravures artistique sure les piece�. 8,400 Fr
Shell embossed and artistic engraving on the piece

Perfection est le seul qualificatif qui convienne a ce modele qui �classe� son possesseur, a la chasse come au tir aux pigeons
Profection is the only term which is appropriate for this model which shows the �class� of it�s owner whether during the hunt or during pigeon shoots

"The water table has the no. 884,along with T3,the VC trademark,and Acier Diamont. The barrels have on the flats the words Trempe, verney-carron integralbloc, Vercar stamp and 7."

I'm inclined to believe 884 is the SN. T3 may be a VC mark for "tempered" (trempe). Trempe and integral bloc are explained in the catalog and addressed above. 70 should be 2 3/4.

Vercar as I understand it was adopted by VC as a trademark around 1930...not sure of this but it can be researched further. VC should know about the SN.

Argo, please let me correct some mistakes and add quite a few more.
best regards,
WC-

Acier - steel
Acier damas (also "damas") - damascus steel
Acier tremp� - quenched steel
Acier revenu - tempered steel
Anson et Deeley, Anson- box lock
Arme de poing - hand gun
Arme d��paule - long gun
Armurier - gun shop owner
Armurerie - gun shop, not a maker, historically a body armor vendor
Arquebusier - Gun maker
Artisan - artisan
Avantage (a droite, a gauche) - cast-off, cast-on
Bande - rib
Prolongement de la bande - extension of the rib (to the receiver)
Balle - bullet or slug
Bascule - receiver/action
Bille acier - steel shot
Bois - wood
Bois de noyer - walnut
Noyer blond - blond walnut
Boitier - housing
Bouche - muzzle
Bouchon de percuteur - Firing pin bushing
Bourre - wad
Brisure, a - top break, center break fire arm ???
fusil a Broche- pinfire gun
Bronzage - barrel blacking
Busc - comb (for a stock)
Cale - wedge (in a double rifle)
Canon - barrel
Canons juxtapos�s - double barrel; SxS
Canon ray� - rifled barrel
Canons superpos�s - over/under
Canon lisse - smoothbore
Carabine - rifle, carbine
Cartouches � plombs - shot shell
Cartouches � balle - slug shell
Chambre - chamber
Chien - hammer
Chiens ext�rieurs - external hammers
Choke - Choke
Demi choke - Modified choke
Cl� - key
Cl� d�ouverture - top lever key
Cl� sur le dessus - top lever key
Coffret - case (to put the gun in)
Corne - horn
Crochet - barrel hook
Crochet du canon - same
Crochet encastr� - dovetailed lump
Crosse - stock
Crosse anglais - English stock
Crosse � joue - stock with cheek piece
Crosse demi-pistolet - round knob grip stock
Crosse pistolet - pistol grip stock
Crossier - stock maker
Culasse - gun bolt
Damasquin� - damascened
Demi-coquelle - half cock (for hammer guns) (???)
Demi-bloc - chopper lump
D�tente - trigger
Devant - forearm
Double detente - double tigger
double verrou de fermeture - double locking bolt
Etui - brass (for a cartridge)
�b�ne - ebony
�jecteurs automatiques - automatic ejectors
Extracteur - extractors
�preuves - proof
Express (also double "express") - double rifle
Banc d��preuves - proof house
Double-epreuves - double proofed
�tranglement - choke
(arme a )Feu central- centerfire (gun)
Fermeture en "T" - Jones underlever
Forage - bore (barrel)
Fusil - firearm (normally a shotgun except but also military rifle)
Fusil de chasse - shotgun
Fusil a percussion - muzzle loading, percussion rifle
Fusil a piston - percussion gun
Gachette - sear
Gachette interruptrice - safety sear
Graveur - Engraver
Gravure - engraving
Grenadi�re - sling swivel
Goupille - round pin
Goupille de charni�re - hinge pin
Guidon - front sight
Hausse - back sight
Illisible - illegible
Jaspage - case coloring
Juxtapos� - side-by-side
Levier - Lever
Levier de s�curit� (ou s�curit�) - safety lever
Longuesse - forestock
Longuesse a poussoir - pushrod (forestock with pushrod release)
Massif - water table..holds the barrel locks I don't agree with that
Moul�(e) - molded
Noix - Hammer axis
Or - gold
Or fin - fine gold
Oreille - Sideclip
Percussion centrale - center percussion, center fire (hammer gun)
Percuteur - Firing pin
Piece d'armurerie - piece of firearms manufacture ???
Piston (Fusil a-) - percussion gun
Planchette - back sight folding leaf
Plaque de couche - butt plate
Platine - side lock
Platine Holland - front lock as made by H&H or others
Platine arri�res - back locks
Platine avant - front locks
Platine encastr�e - embedded locks
Platine d�montable - hand removable sidelock
plomb - lead shot
Poin�on - stamp
Poin�ons r�glementaires - legal stamps
Poin�ons d'�preuve - proof marks
(Crosse) Ponc�e huile - sanded with oil finish (stock)
Pontet - trigger guard
Pontet � volute - trigger guard with volute in front
Port�e - range (as in shooting distance)
Poudre sans fum�e - smokeless powder
Poudre Pyroxyl�e - smokeless powder (French)
Poudre Vive - smokeless Powder ( Belgian)
Poussoir - push rod (forestock)
Quadrillage - Checkering
Quadrilleur - Checkerer
Rallonge de crosse - stock extension
Ray� � chargement par la bouche - muzzle loader rifle
Ressort - spring
Ressort � boudin - Coil spring
S�ret� - safety
St�phanois - from Saint-Etienne region
Tirette - action rod
Tonnerre - action ball
Type anglais - English style
Verrou - lock
Verrou de fermeture - closing lock
Verrou vertical - rising bite
Verrouillage - locking system
Vis - Screw

Thanks WC...I'm still learning gun terminology and hoped some of you would intervene. Actually, we should probably make this a separate line so it can be accessed.

Not quite sure what "Massif" means in gun terminology....but it's used in a couple of catalogs and seems to refer to the water-table area or perhaps to the chamber area. I wonder since Massif usually refers to an upwelling of the earth (Massif Central)..whether they were referring to the big end of the barrels...the chamber end?.

Lovely effort on all fronts there Argo & Crazy Bull/B�tail sauvage(BS). I assume Culasse is the Breech so how does the definition of Massif differ from Culasse? Also, any stabs for the term Standing Breech?

Canon frette: sleeved tubes

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Here is an updated with addition and deletions.
Massif is an adjective in most cases. I think it was taken out of context. I removed it.
Culasse is standing breech.

Acier - steel
Acier damas (also "damas") - damascus steel
Acier tremp� - quenched steel
Acier revenu - tempered steel
Amortisseur - pad (as in buttpad)
Anson et Deeley, Anson- box lock
Arme de poing - hand gun
Arme d��paule - long gun
Armurier - gun shop owner
Armurerie - gun shop, not a maker, historically a body armor vendor
Arquebusier - Gun maker
Artisan - artisan
Avantage (a droite, a gauche) - cast-off, cast-on
Bande - rib
Prolongement de la bande - extension of the rib (to the receiver)
Balle - bullet or slug
Bascule - receiver/action
Bille acier - steel shot
Bois - wood
Bois de noyer - walnut
Noyer blond - blond walnut
Boitier - housing
Bouche - muzzle
Bouchon de percuteur - Firing pin bushing
Bourre - wad
Bretelle - sling
Bretelle a enrouleur - retractable sling (like on a Ideal)
Brisure, a - Breakage
fusil a Broche- pinfire gun
Bronzage - barrel blacking
Busc - comb (for a stock)
Cale - wedge (in a double rifle)
Canon - barrel
Canons frett�s - sleeved barrel set
Canons juxtapos�s - double barrel; SxS
Canons mixtes (Arme a) - cape gun
Canon ray� - rifled barrel
Canons superpos�s - over/under
Canon monobloc - Barrels made in one block of steel
Canon lisse - smoothbore
Capuche - metal piece surrounding the Deeley forearm pushbutton
Carabine - rifle, carbine
Cartouches � plombs - shot shell
Cartouches � balle - slug shell
Chambre - chamber
Chien - hammer
Chiens ext�rieurs - external hammers
Choke - Choke
Demi choke - Modified choke
Cl� - key
Cl� d�ouverture - top lever key
Cl� sur le dessus - top lever key
Coffret - case (to put the gun in)
Corne - horn
Coquille - action ball
Crochet - barrel hook
Crochet du canon - same
Crochet encastr� - dovetailed lump
Crosse - stock
Crosse anglaise - English stock
Crosse � joue - stock with cheek piece
Crosse demi-pistolet - round knob grip stock
Crosse pistolet - pistol grip stock
Crossier - stock maker
Culasse - standing breech or bolt
Culasse mobile - movable breech (i.e. on a Darne)
Damasquin� - damascened
Demi-coquelle - half cock (for hammer guns) (???)
Demi-bloc - chopper lump
D�tente - trigger
Devant - forearm
Devant a pompe - Deeley pushbutton forearm
Double detente - double tigger
double verrou de fermeture - double locking bolt
Etui - brass (for a cartridge)
�b�ne - ebony
�jecteurs automatiques - automatic ejectors
Extracteur - extractors
�preuves - proof
Express (also double "express") - double rifle
Banc d��preuves - proof house
Double-epreuves - double proofed
�tranglement - choke
(arme a )Feu central- centerfire (gun)
Fermeture en "T" - Jones underlever
Forage - bore (barrel)
Frette - monoblock
Fusil - firearm (normally a shotgun but also a military rifle)
Fusil de chasse - shotgun
Fusil a percussion - muzzle loading, percussion rifle
Fusil a piston - percussion gun
Gachette - sear
Gachette interruptrice - safety sear
Graveur - Engraver
Gravure - engraving
Grenadi�re - sling swivel
Goupille - round pin
Goupille de charni�re - hinge pin
Guidon - front sight
Hausse - back sight
Illisible - illegible
Jaspage - case coloring
Joue - cheekpiece
Juxtapos� - side by side
Levier - Lever
Levier de s�curit� (ou s�curit�) - safety lever
Longuesse - forestock
Longuesse a poussoir - pushrod (forestock with pushrod release)
Monod�tente - single trigger
Moul�(e) - molded
Noix - Hammer axis
Or - gold
Or fin - fine gold
Oreille - Sideclip
Percussion centrale - center percussion, center fire (hammer gun)
Percuteur - Firing pin
Piece d'armurerie - piece of firearms manufacture ???
Piston (Fusil a-) - percussion gun
Planchette - back sight folding leaf
Plaque de couche - butt plate
Platine - side lock
Platine Holland - front lock as made by H&H or others
Platine arri�res - back locks
Platine avant - front locks
Platine encastr�e - embedded locks
Platine d�montable - hand removable sidelock
plomb - lead shot
Poin�on - stamp
Poin�ons r�glementaires - legal stamps
Poin�ons d'�preuve - proof marks
(Crosse) Ponc�e huile - sanded with oil finish (stock)
Pontet - trigger guard
Pontet � volute - trigger guard with volute in front
Port�e - range (as in shooting distance)
Poudre sans fum�e - smokeless powder
Poudre Pyroxyl�e - smokeless powder (French)
Poudre Vive - smokeless Powder ( Belgian)
Poussoir - push rod (forestock)
Quadrillage - Checkering
Quadrilleur - Checkerer
Rallonge de crosse - stock extension
Ray� � chargement par la bouche - muzzle loader rifle
Ressort - spring
Ressort � boudin - Coil spring
S�ret� - safety
St�phanois - from Saint-Etienne region
Tire-cartouche - extracteur
Tirette - action rod
Tonnerre - place where the ignition happen
Type anglais - English style
Verrou - lock, also bolt
Verrou de fermeture - closing lock
Verrou vertical - rising bite
Verrouillage - locking system
Vis - Screw

Thanks to all on these efforts. What a valuable resource for us one language folks. Daryl

Gentlemen, Your diligence and generosity with your time in translating all of this information is appreciated immensely by me. I would never have been able to do this sort of thing on my own, even with Internet translation. I know, because I tried several days ago. I did sent V-C an email and hope they take pity on an old Carolina boy, but I believe I saw somewhere that they had lost their records in a flood years ago. Anyway, the gun is super quality,but will require some work to get it back right,i.e. barrel reblue and one ejector leaf spring is broken. But these are relatively minor issues, and should not be hard to fix.When I get it all back together, I'll post some pictures. Best regards, Sandlapper

Sand, here is a line from 2011 on Verney-Carron involving most of the usual suspects above. It is long and gets into arguments over Belgian barrels and Belgian use of VC patents etc. But it's very good.

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...amp;type=thread

You'll notice though that it confuses HELICE with an actual lock or an actual patent - it isn't. Aas we've established I in another line HELICE is just a generic name for Helical and it was used by many companies in many different forms. Nevertheless even the French get confused and there is a gun on Guns International now adversing a "French-made Helice" SxS.

http://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-fo...un_id=100827533

Argo, Thanks for the info. In regards to the gun, I neglected to mention that it has the toplever stop,which is very unusual, and the Helico grip is a kind of combination of a Purdey underbolt and a barrel extension on top and bottom of barrels, if that makes sense. It seems immensely strong, and I kind of wonder why other makers didn't use it.The bottom barrel extension sits right below the ejector legs and is locked by a lug that operates off of the toplever spindle. Super strong setup,but must have been a bear to fit. Regards, Sandlapper

Argo, I forgot to ask earlier; do you have any idea what 8400 francs would translate into in dollars back in the 1930's? I wonder what this gun would have sold for new? Thanks, Marcus

Just catching up, after having been away from the computer for a few days. Thanks to WC and Argo . . . and a few additions and corrections:

Ailes--side clips
Canon raye dispersant--Rifled spreader barrel (usually on Euro woodcock guns)
Cylindrique--cylinder choke (synonym: lisse)
Plein--full (as in choke)
Poudre blanche--smokeless powder
Contre-platine (or, I think, fausse platine)--false sideplate

Canons frettes--Aren't necessarily sleeved barrels as we think of it in English, which means replacing the original ones. For example, the Manufrance Robust was made from scratch with canons frettes. Not sure if the same term would be applied to doubles like those made by Beretta or SKB (Japanese), which are monobloc but don't have the "step" joint where the barrels mate up with the chambers.

Quote:

Super strong setup,but must have been a bear to fit.

That statement likely explains why not many makers adopted it. Next question is "Super Strong" in what direction??
Most people seem to forget, ignore or just plain don't know, that the major points where strength is needed on a break open gun is not in a rotational direction but axial. It has been proven time & again that one sturdy bolt is adequate to hold a break open shotgun closed while firing. In fact both W W Greener & Dan Lefever made claims to having fired their respective guns with all bolts removed & held them shut by the simple act of wrapping their thumb across the tops of the barrels.
"IF" you give a smoke test to a whole lot of multi bolted doubles you will find "One" bolt to be doing all the work with the others providing ornamentation & "Bragging Points".

Here is the translation of the publicity for HELICE-GRIP - not very useful but at least I learned some new words:- welcome corrections from the French experts.

Helice-Grip

N�est-il pas superflu aujourd�hui de parler encore de L�HELICE-GRIP, cette fermeture fameuse dont le success est si grand et les imitateurs se nombreux?
It is not superfluous these days to talk again about l�HELICE-GRIP, that famous closing system the success of which has been so great that there are numerous imitators.

Il est utile pourtant de consigner ici quelques details techniques pour mettre en garde les chasseurs contre les nombreuses contrefa�ons qui peuvent leur �tre propos�es.
It�s useful however, to put down here some technical details in order to warn hunters about the number of counterfeits that are out there.

A la page 3 vous traversez la reproduction de nos marques deposees. Elles identifiant l�un des divers dispositifs de L�HELICE-GRIP �Verney Carron�
On page 3 you can see reproductions of our trademarks. They identify one of several different images of L�HELICE GRIP �Verney Carron.� (note: posted below)

SON PRINCIPE. - Its principle.
L�HELICE-GRIP �Verney-Carron� est une application aux fusil de chasse de la fermeture des pieces d�artillerie. Au lieu du verrou qui frotte, s�use et joue, l'�crou qui serre toujours a bloc parce qu�il est reglable.
L�HELICE-GRIP �Verney-Carron� is an an application to a shotgun of the closing locks of artillery pieces. Instead of a lock which rubs, wears and plays, (it has) a nut which always is tight because it is adjustable.

L�HELICE GRIP se compose d�une cl� top-lever, de forme sp�ciale et d�une seule piece. Termin�e par une tige portant un filetage carre a grande resistance. La tete de cette cl� est dispos�e de mani�re a former boulon de serrage sur la bande des canons.
L�HELICE GRIP is composed of a top-lever key in a special form made of one sole piece terminated by a rod carrying a square thread of great resistance. The head of this key is arranged so as to form a tightening bolt on the barrel rib.

SA COMPOSITION. - Nos Clients son familiarises maintenant avec les piece constitutives de la fermeture HELICE GRIP dont ils appr�cient l�extreme simplicit�. Alors que la fermeture a triple verrou de type courant comport sept pieces differentes, L�HELICE�GRIP �Verney-Carron� comport quatre pieces seulement essentiellement massives and robustes.
ITS MAKE-UP: Our clients are now familiar with the constituent pieces of the HELICE GRIP closing system and will appreciate its extreme simplicity. While the triple lock closing system of a current type is comprised of seven different parts (Note: referring to the Webley top lever system), L�HELICE-GRIP �Verney-Carron� is made up of only four parts essentially massive and robust.

FUNCTIONNEMENT. - Le fonctionnement de L�HELICE-GRIP est connu de longue date. Il est facile de comprendre en effet que la tete de la cl� vient serrer progressivement jusqu�a bloquage complet la prolongement de la bande des canons come le ferait un boulon, auquel L�HELICE-GRIP es �troitement apparente.
HOW IT WORKS: The functioning of L�HELICE-GRIP has been known for a long time. It�s easy to understand in effect that the head of the key tightens progressively until it completely blocks the extension of the gun rib as if it were a bolt to which L�HELICE-GRIP is closely related

$ / French Franc exchange rate:

Marcus - your gun would have cost in the neighborhood of $210 in 1939 . That was a lot of money back then. I speculate it was the "Integrelbloc" system of casting the locks with the barrels that was the reason for cost...I'll have a go at translating that page of the sales broacher.

Here are the historical exchange rates for the French Franc:

1930: $1.00 = 25.48 FF
1931: $1.00 = 25.51 FF
1932: $1.00 = 25.46 FF
1933: $1.00 = 19.88 FF
1934: $1.00 = 15.22 FF
1935: $1.00 = 15.15 FF
1936: $1.00 = 16,36 FF
1937: $1.00 = 24.72 FF
1938: $1.00 = 34.74 FF
1939: $1.00 = 39.84 FF

1939, 8,400 FF = about $210.

Gene Williams

I'll translate this page since it explains the VC trademark Integrelbloc barrels. In the drawings you can clearly see the locks split between each barrel tube. (Welcome corrections and notice the use of "Massive" below (ils diff�re du premier en ce que les crochets sont relev�s au moment de la forge sur le massif meme des tubes). (might it mean "the same steel blank as the tubes?" or this might be "barrel flats")

L�Assemblage de canons - Assembly of the barrels
Les gravures ci-contre repr�sentent les trois modes d�assemblage que nous utilisons dans le montage de nos canons.
The below engravings represent the three methods of assembly that we use in the mounting of our barrels

Premier MODE - Crochet et bandes rapportees
First METHOD - Barrel hooks/locks and rib attached.

Dans le premier MODE, la bande et les crochets sont ind�pendants des tubes auxquels ils sont ajustes et soudes, a l�aide d�un alliage special.
In the first METHOD, the rib and the lock/hooks are independent of the barrel tubes to which they are adjusted and soldered with the help of a special alignment tool.

A remarquer que les crochets d�attache ajustes en queue d�aronde entre les tubes forment corps avec eux et que rien ne saurait les detacher.
It is to be noted that the hooks/locks are adjusted in dovetail fashion between the tubes forming a body with them such the nothing can detach them,

Se mode d�assemblage est plus generalment employe et donne les meilleurs r�sultats.
This method of assembly is most generally employed and gives the best results.

Deuxi�me MODE, crochets 1/2 bloc, bandes rapport�es.
Second METHOD, barrel hooks/locks in 1/2 (on each barrel), Barrel rib attached.

Le deuxi�me MODE d�assemblage est utilise dans les canons des armes de prix au-dessus de la moyenne. Il diff�re du premier en ce que les crochets sont relev�s au moment de la forge sur le massif meme des tubes, chaque canon apport s demi-partie de crochet.
The second METHOD of assembly is used on the barrels of guns of higher price than the norm. It differs from the first method in that the hooks/locks are raised up at the moment of forging the large ends of the tubes themselves.

Troiseme MODE - �Integralbloc�, crochet et prolongement de bandes releves par moiti� sur chaque tube.
Barrel hooks/locks and the rib extension are cast in half on each gun tube.

Dans le troisi�me MODE, non seulement les crochets, mais le prolongement de la bande elle-m�me sont relev�s sur le massif meme des tubes, chaque canon apportant la moiti� du crochet et la moiti� du prolongement de la band; c�est l��integralbloc�.
In the third METHOD, not only the barrel hooks/locks, but the extension of the rib itself are cast/raised up on large ends of the tubes, each barrel carrying one half of the hook and one half of the rib extension; This is the �Integralbloc.�

Est-ce a dire que seuls ces canons soient a meme de donner des r�sultats de tir satisfaisant? Evidemment non. Neanmoins, le tireur de pigeons, qui a de bonnes raison pour conserver par devers lui toutes les chance de r�ussite, le sportsman que surveille la galerie, a qui se fait un point d�honneur de d�crocher dans la nue l�oiseau lance par le rabatteur, n�h�siteront pas a d�bourser la fort somme pour acqu�rir ce canon merveilleux de regularite., de groupement et de penetration et en mot, ce canon tout a fait exceptionnel. Mais h�tons-nous d�ajouter que l�outillage perfection dont nous disposons nous permet de fournir aussi, soit avec canons a crochets independants, soit avec canons a crochets demi-bloc, des arms parfaites et d�un pouvoir meurtrier plus que suffisant, pour atteindre et abattre un piece de gibier aux distance maxima auxquelles il es raisonnable de tirer a la chasse.
Can we say that only barrels made in this manner can give satisfactory shooting results? Clearly no. Nevertheless, the pigeon shooter, who has good reason to afford himself every chance to succeed, the sportsman who watches the gallery, to whom it is a point of honor to hit on the fly the bird launched by the keeper, will not hesitate to disburse a strong sum of money to acquire these barrels, marvelous for their consistency of groups and of penetration and in a word, these barrels absolutely exceptional. But we hasten to add that the perfect tooling which we have at our disposal permits us also to furnish with with barrels with independent hooks/locks, or with barrels forged in half, perfect guns and of a murderous power more than sufficient, in order to find and kill game at maximum distance at which it is reasonable to fire during the hunt.

Hi Argo,
good translation...
"crochets" translated literally as "hooks" are "lumps", and not "locks".
VC-

I also note the usage of "massif" in the original.
It means the "from the initial mass" of steel before forming/machining. It's akin to the use of "billet" in English.
WC-

What VC touts is as the best demi-bloc is actually quite common in British double rifles. H&H and Webley among others did it a lot.
WC-

I've been looking over the offerings on one of the largest French double-gun sites, but now it will be hard to settle for anything less that Sandlipers's Helidplex. We'll see what the relatives in St. Chamond can come up with.

http://www.naturabuy.fr/Fusils-Juxtaposes-cat-127.html

Here are a few more terms from these ads. Words change: Chambre (chamber) can become Chambrage (chambering). Jaspe (case coloring) can be spelled Jaspee, Jasp�, or as WC used Jaspage (case coloring). Anyway, with W.C., L.Brown, Raimey's permission, I'll just meld all our work together and supercopy into a new line using a title which can be recognized when searched; I'm a little worried that since this is in a VC line, it can get lost:

Ame Canon - bore
Bras� - brazed�
�a bras� sur - brazed on
Brettelle retractable - retractable (built in) sling
Chambrage - chamber(ing)
Contre-platines - false side-plates
Fausses-platines - false side-plates
Fusil a chien - hammer gun
Guilloch�s - ornamented with geometric design
...Vis guilloch�s - ornamented screws
Jasp�; Jaspee - case color
Jeu - play (in the sense of movement)
...Jeu dans la bascule - (play in the receiver)
Piqures - pitting
...Petites piqueras - light pitting
Queue d�aronde - dovetail
Rayures - scratches
Rouille - rust

Argo, I haven't heard from the email request to V-C yet, however I bought a original 1928 V-C catalog from Ebay that the lady assured me had 4 pages concerning the Heliduplex model, so we'll see when I get it.

Sandlapper, when I inquired about a V-C gun I owned many years ago (model called Helice 33, the 33 signifying the year in which it appeared), they were unable to tell me anything about the specific gun because they no longer had the records. However, they did send me catalog copy from their 1934 catalog, which was very helpful. Hope you're as fortunate.

Mr. Brown, I sent V-C an email probably 7-10 days ago,and as yet have not recieved a reply. Do you by chance have an email address that you sent your request to? Marcus

Marcus, that was back in the last century! I'm sure you'd get whatever is current if you google Verney-Carron.

I finally got the gun back and took a few pictures. Hope they are clear enough.sandlapper

Guys, Here are some pics of the Verney Carron. I just got it back from Abe Chaber and am pretty pleased with it. Took it out on opening day of dove season Saturday, and it accounted for itself pretty well. Mr.Chaber was very impressed with the quality of this gun,particularly the locks,which he said were much better made than Brazier or Chilton locks,which is pretty hard to imagine,as I have Scott premiers wuth Chiltons and they ain't bad.

Even the checkering quality is superb.

Wow. Very nice gun there!

Has anyone seen similar? Also, can anyone make out the trademark on the toplever? It sort of resembles the Arrow trademark of Manufacture Fran�aise d'Armes et Cycles de Saint Etienne?

Many thanks to fallschirmjaeger for giving me the heads up.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

I was looking at an ad on Guns International about a week ago for a " FRAPPER MORIN 12GA LIGHT WEIGHT FIELD GUN 6LBS 2OZ" and had planned to post a comment here (this gun has now been sold).

https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-f...un_id=101110666

The gun was identified as a "Frapper Morin" French gun. Well, even after all our posting here, the gun dealers still get it wrong. "Le Frapper-Morin" is the name of the retailer in Pontivy, Brittany. Here is the stamp of the retailer and the map of the location Pontivy.

Here is a French Newspaper from Pontivy with mention of Le Frapper-Morin, who like many French hardware stores in the 1930's dealt in Bicycles and other stuff too:'

"Le Journal de Pontivy". 23 September 1931: (I didn't want to pay the site to get the actual newspaper ad...so just copied the reference)

However, the question I had of this particular Saint-Etienne made gun was this mark on the Key which is identical to the mark on the "Screw-Grip" posted by Raimey above; I was going to ask whose mark is that "monkey riding the lion?"

Barrel flats from the Le Frapper-Morin gun:

On Raimey's image, bottom word is "Marque"....can't make out the top one but you could ask the dealer.

Ok this question has been asked before, - here is the Monkey riding the Lion on barrel flats: (PT so post 1900. Chambered in cm so between 1900 and 1912): My feeling is Ronchard-Cizeron was long gone by 1930 so the Lion/Monkey should not be his mark?

-- (Looks like it reads "Canons Gallia" "Marque Deposee")

-- According to this post, Canons Gallia was a marque of Berthon Fr�res: "Berthon Fr�res, fabricants d'armes a St Etienne de 1900 � 1910. Successeurs de la Maison Martin Gerest. D�p�t de deux marques de fabrique le 26 avril 1912 pour platine "Perfecta"et une autre. Deux autres d�p�ts le 11 juin 1912 pour canons "Gallia" et carabine "La Lorraine". Devient en 1922 Laspoussas-Berthon & Cie, puis Laspoussas & Driol en 1923. L'entreprise a exist� jusqu'en 1950."

The problem with this scenario is the 6.5 chamber above. Chambering in cm went out in 1912, thus a trademark established in Jun 1912 would be just on the cusp of the changeover - unless it was used informally before.

Here was the comment at the time:
"Fanget & Cie had a trademark of a Dragon on a Broom."

Also:
"It would seem that R*C( Joseph Ronchard - Cizeron) used more than one trademark type animal. I thumbed thru a number of examples and the Rampant Rabbit goes hand in hand with Choke Bored Perfectionn�(something like advanced constriction??) while the Lion is also seen on R*C(Joseph Ronchard - Cizeron) examples in tandem with the Rampant Rabbit."

Rampant Bunny logo of Ronchard-Cizeron:

Many thanks Argo44(the stage name makes me want to watch the movie Argo) for the effort & what a case of happenstance. But I think the phrase to be "Marque D�pos�e". I fancy the phrase money riding the lion.....

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Well, actually, my wife and I were returning from Paris in June 1981 to Brazzaville. the Air Afrique flight at the time flew, Paris-Ndjamena-Bangui-Brazza" and return. The DC8 landed in Ndjamena; the plane taxied to the dusty terminal, made a 180 degree turn and ran for the runway. Two Libyan armored cars shot past on either side and cut it off. Libyans had occupied the Chadian capital at the time - Chadian civil war was going full force. They took off someone from 1st class. Never knew what it was about but wrote it up once we got to Brazza. Shades of the movie.

Looks like that Monkey on a Lion's Back, or Rampant Dragon with wings or something is the mark of Canons Gallia. Question is, "whose mark is 'Canons Gallia'?" It could indeed be Gerest-Berthon and its successors:

Gene Williams

Verney-Carrone is French, so Belgian proofmarks are not relevant, but I believe on Belgian guns the rampant lion in full indicates proof for domestic sale and in stick figure form represents for export...Geo

A few I have @ my fingertips. I'll try to round up a few more.

Berthon Freres

Seems as if we have the same image.....

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Marecnal

Odd duck I had lying around.....

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Ah, so it's a prancing/rearing pony. Ca va. And a few more extraneous engraved keys - everybody did it. Sort of like everybody is now wearing $300 pairs of tennis shoes in Paris now.

Ca va, huh? Me thinks it still to be a lion rampant? But Prancing Pony is quite searchable.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

With all those Helice guns, looks like V-C specialized in the engraved keys. My 1922 catalog is a reproduction with somewhat fuzzy images. But even in many of those you can make out engraving on the key and top lever.

That catalog is worth the price if for nothing more than the full page photo of French WWI ace of aces Rene Fonck and his recommendation for the V-C Helice Grip: "The game birds fall like Krauts!"