I have a dumb question that I suspect can be easily answered by more informed people. Assuming that plastic sleeved cushioned wads result in little or no pellet distortion from a cylinder bore, what are the actual physics that cause pellets to disburse in a generally even pattern? I can easily understand that air resistance could cause individual velocity difference and result in shot stringing and pellet collision resulting in outliers but what force causes pellets to be deflected radially from the core shot mass?

Energy and laws of physics....

Nothing is static.

For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

Here's one for you.... Why does the universe continue to expand?

'Cause God made room for it to.

SRH

The drag vector on the individual pellets.

Once the drag force on the shot mass leading edge slows the leading pellets the trailing pellets push them out of the way to all sides and this starts the dispersion.

Once it starts, it's accelerated by the drag vector on each pellet.

The more out of plane it gets, the more side force.

The universe is not expanding. Redshift is not entirely recessional velocity. There is no 'dark' matter. L-CDM cosmology has been refuted over and over. 'Big Bang' is indistinguishable from creationism, and in fact was first postulated by a theologian. L-CDM cosmology depends entirely on the 'given' that the universe is both homogenous and isotropic. Observations show that it is neither, on any scale. The universe is alive. Galaxies have a life cycle just like animals do, and the material is recycled over and over. An active Seyfert galaxy almost certainly creates matter, so entropy need not cause an eventual end to the universe. This a stranger place than we can know at present, and the whole picture may be beyond human understanding. I'm certain there are aspects to reality that we cannot perceive. Enough?

Plenty enough for me. Good explanation of shot dispersion, too.

Right now I'm much more concerned with how to pick up an extra two birds a round on sporting on my yearly average, and how to get native Texas sunflower to grow perennially in this here sandy soil.

Have a blessed day all, SRH

Mostly with you, but disagree that "...an active Seyfert galaxy almost certainly creates matter." Perhaps better would have been "recycle," as you say subsequently. I still hold to the axiom that "matter can neither be created nor destroyed" and agree that the universe is amazingly complex. I would use the term "dynamic" however, as opposed to "living." Picking at nits, and all said you gave a learned and insightful glimpse into our macro "habitat."

"The drag vector on the individual pellets.

Once the drag force on the shot mass leading edge slows the leading pellets the trailing pellets push them out of the way to all sides and this starts the dispersion.

Once it starts, it's accelerated by the drag vector on each pellet.

The more out of plane it gets, the more side force."

So is it correct to assume that if we were able to mark individual pellets, we would find that those on top were on the outer edges of the pattern and those on the bottom were in the core of the pattern?

So, If the leading shot in the column are the first to disperse and decelerate, then those at the base of the column will not only be at the center of the pattern but also first to target? Given a standard 12ga target load of number 8 shot, at what range does the cone of shot invert? Or does it?

Just an aside to this thread: I think it's the most interesting exchange I seen here for a long time. Thanks.

In general theory, yes.

Stop action photos of a cylinder choke show a 'mushroom' effect, so the leading pellets certainly get a head start.

The lower part of the stack though would get more deformation from acceleration and might well head for the edge faster than the rounder pellets, so it's hard to say.

Were we to test this, pellet hardness would be a major variable.

WS16: We 'destroy' (actually convert) matter on a daily basis, and stars certainly do so. 1+1+1+1 does not quite =4. Energy and mass are quite interchangeable according to that old white haired dude, so I have no problem envisioning a process where matter condenses from energy. I think Arp's observations of what are obviously opposite direction quasar ejecta from Seyferts is quite telling, and what we are looking at there is 'young' matter. Mainstream science needs to 'look' at the actual data and not try to fit everything into a refuted theory by inventing ad hoc physics. Unfortunately, there's no money in it.

I had wondered if this thought would turn up higher on the list of possible causes. Particularly with the recent comments about too much choke, and then on the other hand flyers out of whatever the pattern was.

I realize from the previous comments that I am going up against some generally accepted scientific information, but I believe most of what has been said is in error. The physics principles stated are generally relevant to bullets, less so to shot.

A spherical projectile does not have to slow to any predetermined speed to be dispersed by wind resistance. Because it is round it has a middle center of gravity. It is therefore impacted by the Magnus effect which is a destabilizing force on any projectile with a center of pressure ahead of the center of gravity.

Certainly, all physics pressure vectors are linked, but from a shotgun viewpoint, the only real external factor of importance is speed. Increase the speed at any choke, and you increase dispersion. Before the tech experts start tearing me apart on this, let's step away from physics and think about real world examples.

A pitcher throwing 98MPH has his ball tail up and away. It does not slow to 86MPH to tail. He can do the same thing with a whiffle ball without seams.

A muzzleloader that uses too much powder on a round ball, gets fliers and has to back off.

Turn on the garden hose at any determined degree of choke. Increase the water pressure. The water spreads out immediately from the nozzle outward. It does not travel out several feet to lose speed and be dispersed by air pressure.

If you want a single variable to increase shot dispersion from the barrel to the target, simply increase flight speed. Those little round pellets will overcome inertia and spread out.

Steve

Well, Entropy may well eventually proceed to the maximum. I find it hard to believe that matter will be able to continuously be recycled. Black Dwarf stars will develop at some point, the Universe will be full of them. Personally, I kind'a find the whole topic to be esoteric, especially since the Universe is so young, only 12.5 billion years old. Not a very big number if you think about things like the Federal Debt. In fact, I d hope I'm wrong.

Regards
Ken

VF: I follow, but remember that a cylinder shotgun charge hits the air as a clump, a choked charge as a string.

The pellets don't have individual clean air flow until they are some distance apart, thus I doubt that Magus is the initial destabilizing cause. I don't discount a contribution to dispersion, though.

Lead pellets are no longer round after the bore travel, their ballistic coefficient must vary considerably and certainly they acquire spin.

Increased dispersion with speed isn't surprising, since drag is a V2 function.


The baseball analogy doesn't play though, except for a kunckle ball. A spinning baseball or golf ball is an air pump. It accelerates a mass of air and bends the local flow exactly like a wing or a sail. The 'break' is caused by the transition from laminar flow to turbulent flow. Stand behind a driving range and watch a golf ball 'soar' after a period of ballistic flight, or watch a home run start to fly when the backspin bites in. A smooth ball won't do that, not to say that it will fly straight it just won't move in a predictable direction.

Ken, the postulated 'age' of the universe depends on the Hubble Constant which varies depending on who you read. It assumes red shift is entirely a result of recessional velocity, an assumption that increasingly is very much in doubt. Never mind that Hubble never insisted this was so, or that his original data was flawed, it just fit in so well with the preconceived notions of the originators of the 'expanding universe' theory that it gained traction.

To briefly continue, an expanding universe is not observed it is only inferred using questionable assumptions and we are then told that it does not apply on a 'local' scale. In fact, M31 is blue shifted and will collide with our galaxy in a few billion years. Galactic collisions are not uncommon, and that rather puts the lie to L-CDM. Without expansion, there is no need for a beginning or age for the universe and steady state works fine. Give gravity a finite range, even a huge one, and the need for 'dark matter' disappears. Don't laugh, many of the patches to BBT are much more absurd.

Sorry I got cranked up, but it's too cold to shoot.

Shot gun ballistics are actually pretty complicated it is amazing that they behave as predictable as they do. Your question is not a dumb one. A number or things happen when the shot leaves the barrel, 1)Higher pressure exists in the barrel then in the ambient air. This gas expands rapidly leaving the barrel pushing the shot as it goes. The shot tends to be carried by the outwardly expanding gas. 2)The shot on the outside of the load has more of an horizontal force on it then the shot in the center. 3) Some of the shot will be deformed and posses a different trajectory then the un deformed shot.4) Some of the shot will be spinning causing it to curve more.5)The fast moving shot will experience wind resistance which also causes scatter

The fact that it expands at a predictable rate is due the consistency of the quality of the shot, the powder and of the wad

No, no... by all means, continue please.

+1

You get greater dispersion than polywad!

Well, it's a shotgun BBS, so I must be brief so as not to abuse this medium, which I greatly admire and enjoy.

I'd refer you to the writings of Tom VanFlandern, Halton Arp, Geoff Burbridge, Fred Hoyle, and Hilton Ratcliffe. Do read a standard mainstream astronomy textbook also, to get the majority report.

I will leave you with the 'ultimate question' which I first saw proposed by Ratcliffe.

The question is this:

As far as we can tell, all the atoms and molecules in the universe are made of the same basic 'stuff'. The differences are very slight, and consist only of atomic weight and the energy field of the elusive 'electrons' and their well known 'quantum' character. Matter is to a very high percentage simply space.

How do the elements and resulting complex molecules 'know' how to behave? Each atom of Lead behaves exactly like any other for instance. Each molecule of nitroglycerine has exactly the same heat of decomposition. A couple protons either way, and we have vastly different physical and chemical characteristics.

Some of us find terms like 'natural properties' and statements like 'It's God's will' deeply unsatisfying.

This is why I think there is a blueprint to the universe that all matter has access to that we cannot at present detect. Sort of like a DNA code but part of the basic fabric of the cosmos.

I reject out of hand nonsense like 'there is no deep reality' or 'the universe is a hologram'. Likewise math is not reality, it's just a tool to describe reality.

Is the answer knowable? Only time will tell, but superstition and ad hoc or 'invented' physics that cannot be tested will get us nowhere.

I think we are close to being on the same page. The more I learn the less I understand.

What a fascinating set of ideas. Now this is only theory but it sounds logical to me.
Your column of shot is pushed out of the barrel by the wad. The leading pellets are pushed by the ones behind them. As the pellets are spheres there must be a 'snooker ball' effect with many of the second row of pellets pushing the ones in front out at a slight angle. The third row will in turn push the row in front outwards if they are slightly inside of them and so on. The pellets not towards the outside will probably have 3 pellets pushing it equally from behind so should carry on in a fairly straight line - which would explain central density and why for a given load 12 bores tend to pattern better than 20 or 28 bores.
No doubt factors such as air flow through the shot mass and deformed pellets will also have an effect. The pellets on the outside of the column will be hitting still air on the outside while the ones progressively nearer the centre will be in a moving column of air with equal forces all around its sides.
I did read somewhere that the elasticity of the binding agent of tungsten matrix shot caused it to 'spring' apart like compressed golf balls but not too sure how one would go about devising an experiment to test this theory. If it were true then must substances have some elasticity - lead less than most - it doesn't bounce much when dropped but even a tiny amount may have an effect.
Just a few thoughts with absolutely no proof!!
Blow them all out of the water if you like - I have a tough skin!!
John

Sounds good to me.

It's not that the following pellets are pushing, but the leading ones are being slowed by aero drag. Guess it's all relative, Einstein.

Here's an actual experiment they could do on that stupid space station instead of just going around in ellipses.

We could prove or disprove the 'vector' theory of choke effect.

Just have them take a double shotgun up there choked cylinder and full.

Roll down the window and blast at a pattern board.

The cylinder choked load will make one bore diameter hole, and the full one? I think it would do much the same thing because aero effects predominate, certainly the hole won't be very big. Don thinks otherwise.

Of course, the recoil will louse up their heretofore perfectly trimmed orbit, and they better get that window rolled up pretty quick lest all the vacuum rush in.

It feels really good to have not tainted myself by reading any of the posts to this thread. I can only imagine and I'd bet it ain't pretty.

Great idea SJ, maybe the Russians will go for it (with a Baikal)!

JC

Now why didn't I think of that experiment! what a great idea. Thought this might be of interest - you can actually see the shot from my punt gun - there does seem to be some 'stringing' quite early on in the flight time and no evidence of 'mushrooming' that could be expected from the central column of shot pushing the pellets in front outwards - but then who cares - just look at the result - pretty dead I would say??

Trying a new photo hosting as I can't seem to get photobucket to work any more - sorry if the images are a little small - probably doing something wrong - I was not born to this technology - only visiting it as a pensioner!!
John
Looks like if you click on the thumb nail image - almost like magic - a larger image will appear!!

Hey Wonko,

Since you admit that 'ignorance is bliss', at least as far as this thread goes, why would you 'imagine' anything and thus louse up your perfectly satisfactory state of mind?

When the choke is tightened the shot string is lengthened. Because of the lengthened shot string fewer shot will be forced outward by the the pressure of the expanding hot gas as it initially exits the muzzle.

Have any of you ever owned a BB gun? A BB gun is just a shotgun shooting one pellet very slowly. Amazingly it is accurate! Speed that shot up and you have a smooth bore Brown Bess musket, which is amazingly inaccurate. That is because SPEED makes the round shot diverge.

You can ponder group impact, shoving from the back of the shot column, elastic recoil, and air drag until you are old and grey. They still will not validate a theory for consistently opening a pattern from a shotgun. Those factors are minimal.

If drag or jostling were the primary factors in pattern formation, what greater opportunity could be presented than by shooting a very slow shot load. I had a friend who did exactly that many years ago. Back when you could provide your own shells at a turkey shoot, he showed up with a bag of shells so slow that he had to aim over the target to hit it. You could SEE the shot column in the air, and it literally ate up the targets. His shot column did not disperse because of drag. It stayed together, and almost every shot hit the target. After he won about six straight rounds, the local club barred his shells and thereafter made everyone shoot the same shells, which they provided.

To open patterns you need speed, speed, speed.

Less powder, more shot, goes far, kills a lot

Old English poem

Little powder, much lead, shoots far, kills dead.

Old American rhyme

Hold steady, shot ready, up an inch, damn flinch!
New American rhyme.

Some modern day muzzle loaders have fired round balls from a smoothbore quite accurately & at velocities considerably faster than the "Brown Bess".
The major cause of inaccuracy in the Brown Bess was the drastically undersized ball used for rapid reloading which bounced around all over the bore in its path to the muzzle.Decent accuracy has been obtained in original Brown Besses using a properly fitted ball but not with one .030" undersize.

Little Powder, Lotta Lead, Shoots Far, Kills Dead is the way I heard this statement. I seem to recall it being ascribed to William Greener, father of WW

And another bit of British wisdom; the rule of 96. They knew how to build and shoot guns.

The only thing I know to be COMPLETELY true about shotguns is that eventually they will prove you wrong. During WWII airplane mechanics talked about gremlins, the unknown entity that made things go badly despite careful attention.

I have seen gun and shot combinations that threw beautiful patterns, print a beautiful pattern with a HOLE right in the middle of it. That is easy to discount, unless that particular shell is the one used to shoot the hundred target in a skeet competition.

There are places for both slow shells and fast shells. I had a dear friend who taught me about dogs and quail. He was the one who showed me how to open patterns with speed. His special shell was 7.5 shot over a hot load of Alcan 5 through a Winchester improved cylinder barrel. With it he had a decent pattern at 15 yards (as checked on paper), and he could literally stone a quail at 35 yards. Watching him shoot was like watching an artist paint.