Hello. I got my old scale out and set it using a 4.4 lb bag of sugar then weighed my shotguns. My 28" 12 gauge Ithaca NID came to 6.5 lbs +-&ounce. Does that seem right to you? Thanks.

My 16 ga. 28" NID weighs more than that, about 6 lbs. 11 oz. as I recall, so I'd re-check your scale calibration using some known exact weight closer to 7 or 8 lbs. I've never seen a 4.4 lb. bag of sugar. I thought most brands are now 4 lbs. even. My old spring scale would give quite a variance depending on how well centered the gun was on the platform.

N I D's are not light weight guns like some Flues. Bobby

are you sure you can trust the sugar's weight no matter what it is marked

Sounds to me like someone's been dipping into the sugar. Sounds light to me...Geo

6lbs 8ozs seems possible but I would say to recheck your scale if it matters to you. I do have a 20ga NID that weighs 6lbs 3ozs which is pretty nice.

As was suggested I tried resetting the scale with a heavier known weight. The information I got was; I need a new scale. Thank you to all for your replies.

Digital postal scales are very accurate and very inexpensive anymore. The one I use at home was bought probably 10-years ago (for $35, probably even less now) to weigh environmental samples in the field and it's shockingly accurate. It only goes up to 5-lbs so I usually have to dissemble a gun to use it, but inevitably when I compare the results to the more professional scale we use at work, it's right on the money.

I've been where you are. I haven't done anything about it yet.


Best,
Ted

A 6 1/2# NID with 28" barrels . . . not sure one that light exists. That'd be close, I think, to 16ga NID weight.

Two Kg is 4.4 lbs. This may explain how one has a 4.4 lb bag of sugar.

jlb

NIDs are not inherently heavy guns. Ithaca itself, no better authority, portrayed the normal weight for a 28" barreled 12 ga. as being 6.5-7 lbs., so your gun is right in there.

7 lbs 4 ounces on my 28" NID as I just measured it on my fish scale. This is the non-lying version of the fish scale.

Thank you for the information on the weight of the 28" 12ga NID. Further experimentation with my scale confirms it usefulness as a decorative item only. Of my 12ga SxSs the NID and the Sterlingworth are most likely the lightest but it is obvious now that I will need a better scale to determine that for certain. I have two 20ga guns that I'm certain are a bit lighter but again that's a guess. I just have to decide if knowing is worth buying a scale since that isn't going to actually make any one of my shotguns lighter. The NID has a comfortable balance, to me, anyway. Thanks you again.

Digital kitchen scales are so cheap and easy to use today that I never use my feed scale any more. Look on Amazon.

See below for handling data on the described gun.

Ithaca NID BLE #455782 - grade 3: weight = 7# 5 oz, balance to trigger = 5", unmounted swing effort = 1.88, mounted swing effort = 8.38, gauge = 12, barrel length = 28", LOP = 15.25", compactness = 10.89.

Questions?

DDA

Rocketman. I am embarrassed to admit I have no ability to interpret the numbers you offer on the gun dynamics. If you would explain those it would be appreciated. Thank you.

Sure. Weight is in high pheasant/light pigeon gun range. Balance (teeter-totter) is between neutral and forward. Unmounted swing effort is a wee bit slow for a pigeon gun, the mounted swing is about right for a pigeon gun. Perhaps a couple of comparisons would help'

Average Game Gun Weight = 6 1/2#, balance = 4 1/2", unmounted swing = 1.45, mounted swing = 6.38, gauge = 12, barrel length = 28", LOP = 14 1/4, compactness = 10.17

Average Pigeon Gun Weight = 7# 10 oz, balance = 4 3/4", unmounted = 1.82, mounted = 8.11, gauge = 12, barrels = 29 3/4", LOP = 14 3/4", compactness = 10.49

Do you have some favored gun? If so, I can probably provide a more direct comparison.

DDA

Silly me. I forgot that I have a 12 ga. NID field grade with 30" bbls. Weight is 7 bls., 1 oz.

Rocket - the balance point on yours would suggest slightly heavy barrels, especially considering the length of the stock. What do they weigh by themselves?

I just sold a Field Grade NID with 30" barrels. 7 lbs 4 oz on my postal scale. Recently had a NID 20ga, 26", that went 6/6. Had a Grade 1E NID 12ga, 30": 7/13.

Gun makers are sometimes on the optimistic side when it comes to weight.

5E, the barrels weigh 3# 2 oz sans forearm. The balance point is about 1/2" forward of an average game gun. Average person can feel about 1/4" shift in balance point.

DDA

My NID with it's 28" barrels and 14.25 LOP balances very close to 3.5" from the standing breach. Because of left shoulder damage I do not extend my left hand as far forward as is proper so the heel of my hand is at or near the back of the forearm. For some comparison, my L.C. Smith feel heavier in the barrels. It is 28" too.

Liverwort;
Do note that Rocket man does not give the balance point from the standing breech. He gives it from the front trigger or the trigger I believe in the case of a single trigger. This is more relevant to the right hand position as guns of different action types do not have the same spacing between the breech & trigger.

There is no "proper" place to reference balance. Balance is useful for determining the % of the guns weight carried by each hand. Some shooters are quite sensitive to this division of weight and others are not.

Trigger (front) is the most convenient point to reference as it places the back/trigger hand. If distance from front hand to balance is measured, the weight distribution to the hands is the inverse of the center of the hand to balance point ratio.

Example: assume trigger hand center to trigger is 3 1/2", balance point to trigger is 4 1/2", and front hand center to balance point is 10". The total distance between hand centers is 18". 8"/18" = .4444 = 44.4% and 10"/18" = .5555 = 55.6%. Remembering the inverse relationship (the hand nearer the balance point carries a higher % of the weight), the trigger hand carries 55.6% of the weight and the front hand carries 44.4%.

You can reference any other point in the universe for balance and arrive at the same numbers, just a more complicated calculation. Breech face and hinge pin are the most often used. They came into use as the value of balance was not understood and some reference point was necessary to discuss balance in any form or fashion.

DDA

There is no "proper" hand placement per se. There is only what is comfortable, works, "natural," or looks best for you as an individual shooter. Good for you may not work at all for some other shooter.

DDA

FWIW, I used my daughters digital food scale. Very accurate and every cheap to purchase.

Balance as measured from the trigger. In my book it's the way to do it and heaps better than the silly notion that a gun should balance on the hinge pin.

Rocket - them's nice light barrels.

Headache material. I wonder, did George Digweed go through all this stuff on his way to World sporting clays and world fitasc championships? Roket man it soundss like you got all this figured out. what class do you shoot in?

He probably did, don't know. But it is a useful calculation for those of us who do not shoot tens of thousands of rounds each month.

I wonder, did George Digweed go through all this stuff on his way to World sporting clays and world fitasc championships? I don't know what tools he may have availed himself of. When you have his talent and get to practice as much you probably don't need the tools I use.



Roket man it soundss like you got all this figured out. I have developed some tools to help understand gun handling. They will not transform you into a top shot any more than coaching or fitted guns will; that transformation requires native talent and thousands of hours of practice. However, they will jump start learning what guns will help you shoot your best or have the most fun.


what class do you shoot in? I no longer worry which class I shoot in. I concentrate on how much I enjoy shooting. For me, learning about guns and shooting is a very rewarding experience. I offer what I have learned on this forum in hopes it will be of some value to others.

DDA

My interest in the subject of shotgun balance, etc, is purely for enjoyment and I appreciate the knowledge offered and the interaction.

Very Well Spoken Rocketman, & there are plenty of us on board who appreciate it, Keep Up the good work.

The clay targets places are full of fella's that tell u every thing there is to know what makes for good gun, but same fella's can't seem to apply theory themselves and often are in lower class ranks and if asked will tell u they shoot just for fun.

What's your beef Old Joe?
D.Amos quantified measurements in a fashion never before seen, that apply universally to double guns.
You can compare any selection of shotguns using his measurements, and then immediately feel right in your hands what is different about them.

And he's gracious about it.

Some readers are able to shoot a wide variety of shotguns well, and some cannot. Some readers can implement theory into their lives, and some cannot or don't want to.
Some, with a little understanding, can see that a high MOI shotgun (or low) won't work for how they shoot.

None of this novel approach to measuring shotgun dynamics requires that D.Amos even own a shotgun, let alone shoot one.


Which makes the model even more valuable as well as elegant.

Oh, 'bout as well throw a little gas on the fire.

Ithaca NID BLE #455782 grade 3, 12 gauge, 28" bbls, 15 1/4" LOP

Normal config: weight = 7# 6 oz, balance = 5", unmounted swing effort = 1.88, mounted swing effort = 8.38, compactness = 10.89


With hand guard of 2 1/4 oz: wt = 7# 8 oz, bal = 5 1/8", unmounted = 1.89, mounted = 8.60, compactness = 10.83

With Bugden weighted hand guard 8 oz: wt = 7# 14 oz, bal = 5 1/2, unmounted = 2.02, mounted = 9.30, compactness = 10.94

LOP following 15 7/8":

Galco slip-on butt pad = 4 3/4 oz: wt = 7# 10 oz, bal = 4 1/4", unmounted = 2.08, mounted = 8.75, compactness = 11.24

With hand guard = 2 1/4 oz & butt pad = 4 3/4 oz: wt = 7# 13 oz, bal = 4 3/8", unmounted = 2.09, mounted = 8.99, compactness = 11.16

With hand guard = 8 oz & butt pad = 4 3/4 oz: wt = 8# 2 oz, bal = 5", unmounted = 2.17, mounted = 9.81, compactness = 10.89

Shows how handling varies with common slip-on accessories.

Normal "change awareness" is 4 oz weight, 1/4" balance, 0.2 unmounted swing effort, and 0.4 mounted swing effort. Compactness can be calculated, but is not felt or measured.

Questions.

DDA

Wait Don, I poured the first healthy cupful on the pitiful blaze you started.

So, anyway, I've been told on an occasion or two, that I can take theory, and make it's practice useful to people. In fact, people on occasion pay me for it.

So, it's been no small revelation for me, when I started fiddling with old shotguns, to find out reading in a magazine, that there was a reproducible set of reasons I could shoot some shotguns pretty well, and others, well, not so much.
Did anyone hear me? Reproducible results. Again, Reproducible results.

I remember seeing some kind of gadget, sorta looked like an old record player, with a plumb bob, and a c-clamp attached, on a picnic table. That was the introduction of Don's gadget to the modern shotgunning world.

When I read that article, my hamster's wheels started turning.

I knew that I missed many birds consistently in certain circumstances with certain guns.

As is my nature, I wanted to know "Why?"

It turns out, that as Don's database grew, and I had a chance to sample shotguns with certain handling dynamics, I could easily find shotguns I shot better. Who'da thunk it? I could cut the crap, and focus on either buying guns ready to shoot, or, I could explore shooting in different styles, to improve my performance with what was in my hands.

The answer for me, is that shotguns with certain handling dynamics allow me to shoot pretty darn good, and those that are a great distance away from my "central tendency", I will struggle with. I guarantee that there are presentations that expose this fundamental weakness for every gunner with a central tendency.

It's all in the numbers.

And that's all Don has ever said.

So, to get away from numbers,
Picture this.
(I shot today, and it's all on my mind at the moment)

I took two shotguns to the club today.
A Remington 1894, and an Ithaca Flues Duck gun.
Same cartridges for each. Shot two rounds of clays.
With the Remington, and it's lithe, 30" barrels, I blew past several shallow angle quartering away presentations, because my normal swing through style over accelerated the dynamic Remington. My spotter said I shot 3' ahead into the snow a couple of times at 30 yards.

Then, on some curving incomers, my spotter said my gun stopped right when I shot.
So, there you can see a gun fast to start, and alas, fast to stop.

Now, you guessed it, the Ithaca was just the opposite. Heavy to start, steady on it's path, and hard to stop.

If you look at my scorecard, you'd see the difference in the gun dynamics spelled out in X's and O's.

The same guy, on the same course, a couple hrs apart.

Who cannot like the predictive nature of Don's measurement?

I know what's in store for me when I grab certain guns from the rack. And I thank Don's efforts for that.

Thanks a whole lot for the kind words, CZ. It has been, is and will remain my intent to give shooters a tool that will beat the aimless wondering from gun to gun. Handling numbers are to gun dynamics as stock dimensions are to physical fit.

DDA

My Field Grade NID weighs 11 pounds, 14 ounces, but, then, it has sling swivels.

8-Bore;
At 11lb 14oz is it safe to assume this Field Grade NID is a 3½" 10ga?

This has become a very enlightening, or at least thought provoking, thread.

My two NID guns weight as follows:
NID, #4519xx, 12ga., 30", F/F , 7lbs 6.6oz.
NID, #4448xx, 12ga., 30", F/M , 7lbs 11.6oz.

Just for comparison, here are weights of earlier models:
Flues, #1752xx, 12ga., 30", F/M, 7lb 8.0oz
Flues, #2914xx, 16ga., 28", F/Cyl, 6lb 11.4oz

Minier, #1483xx, 12ga., 30", F/F, 8lb 0.8oz
Minier, #1459xx, 16ga., 26", F/M, 6lb 9.4oz

Lewis, #745xx, 12ga., 30", F/F, 8lb 1.6oz
Lewis, #1208xx, 16ga., 26", F/M, 6lb 9.0oz

Crass, #379xx, 12ga., 30", F/M, 7lb 9.6oz

The mention of the Flues models being lighter than the NID doesn't show up in these numbers but across the board in production they certainly could have. When discussing the 20ga models, the Flues was much lighter whether a duck or quail configuration.

Getting back to the discussion of balance and handling:

Rocketman,
I understand your numbers relative to carrying and mounting the gun, but once the gun mounts the shoulder the points of reference shift from the forward and rear hand to the forward hand, the shoulder, and to some perspective also the off shoulder. At this time all the numbers change. Handling/swing is changed drastically whether the gun is being held to the shooting shoulder with more effort from the leading or aft hand. Also the difficulty of the swing, and keeping line of sight, increases as the barrels approach 90 degrees to the shoulders. I understand the need to keep the center weight of the load between our two feet but, Do you have any numbers to put this into perspective? A generalization of applied physics to what is going on?

Interesting indeed,

John

JohnE, insightful commentary and questions; thanks.

The gun by itself is a static object with weight (measured), balance (measured), and moment of inertia at center of gravity (measured). Weight tells us the required effort to lift and carry. Balance (CG) tells us how the weight can be divided between the hands. MOI at CG tells us the effort necessary to change the direction the gun is pointing Before the gun is mounted (held in the hands), the MOI at CG is the best indicator of effort to change the direction of point. Depending on hand placement, it may not be exact for individual shooters, but it does tell us about the gun. When mounted to the shoulder, the axis of rotation shifts to, more or less, the shooters spine. Since we have no way to account for shooter physiology, we have to stay with properties of the gun itself. The best number is the MOI at butt which is calculated from MOI at CG via the parallel axis theorem. All numbers are gun properties (how the gun itself is) and do not account for shooter differences.

To use this information, a shooter must learn learn how it relates to him/her; just as is needed with stock fit. Once learned, it is repeatable. Again, as with stocking, you may want differing numbers for differing purposes.

Questions?

DDA

I may have one of the heaviest 26-inch barrel NID 2 3/4 inch 12-gauges out there at 8 pounds 3.5 ounces. It is a fully optioned No. 4E Skeet Gun --





The boys at Fall Creek Water Power Lot #6 must have taken the heaviest pair of tubes they could find and didn't strike an ounce off them to make the barrels of this gun.

Researcher, I can lift this burden from your life if you will permit me.

Researcher, what is the distance from balance point to trigger? That will give us some further idea of how much is in the barrels and in the stock/action.

Walt's live is already overburdened. Take me, take me. ;-)



DDA

Walt what are you going to do after you collect ever nice looking Ithaca gun? You must have a plan, as you are nearing cornering the market. I suspect that you flip through the order books to see if you have missed any. You have to leave a few for others to play with. Just a few of the crumbs.

I have already UPSed them to a future address in my name-a place where gun safes are not needed. Lou is looking after them until get there. I have tried to buy this butt ugly over weight NID from Researcher before without success.

My 2 current NID 12 gauge skeet guns ( I have a third 5E being restocked-hope I live long enough to see it). The top gun is a field grade ejector with factory upgraded grade 5 wood. It weighs 8 pounds one ounce. An identically optioned gun with field grade wood weighs 7 pounds two ounces. Both are choked S-S and are clay killers when I put their barrels in the correct place.
What a difference wood can make! The beaver tail FE also add some.

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OK, we have a skeet gun. Howz about a trap configuration?

Ithaca NID 4E BLE Trap #457465 SST w/ CSMC 1 1/2"pad + 5/8" spacer 12 gauge 32" bbls, 15 5/8" LOP: weight = 9# 2 oz, balance = 5 1/2", unmounted = 2.95, mounted = 11.73, compactness = 12.24

Heavy, forward balance, and slow mudder.

DDA

My No. 4E Skeet Gun balances about 1 1/4 inch in front of the hinge pin. Plenty of forward momentum to keep my swing going. Still, in my opinion, Ithaca's S & S chokes are way too tight for skeet distances, as are the WS-2 barrels of Winchester Model 21 Skeet Guns. In my younger years I ran enough 100 straights in NSSA competition with whacked barrel, Simmons Ribbed, Model 12s in 12- and 20-gauge to be firmly convinced you "don't need no stinkin' choke" for skeet.

Just for grins I weighed my 4E NID which has a montecarlo stock. I used digital bathroom scales with a 25 lb bag of shot to provide additional weight. I realize these weights may not be as accurate as others but they are reproducible. The bag of shot weighed a reproducible 24.9 lbs.

Weight of receiver and stock 4.0 lbs

Weight of 32 inch barrels (5E grade VR) with beavertail forearm 4.6 lbs

Weight of 30 inch (4E VR) barrels with a different beavertail forearm 4.2 lbs

Weight of 28 inch (4E VR) barrels with forearm from 30 inch barrels 4.7 lbs

These results were surprising to me as I anticipated the the weight would decrease with barrel length.

Thus:

4E with 32 inch barrels 8.6 lbs

4E with 30 inch barrels 8.2 lbs

4E with 28 inch barrels 8.7 lbs

Please no flames as to my methodology I earned my keep as a PhD level chemist and I somewhat understand how to weigh; although never anything so heavy. Since the results are reproducible then it seems to me that there is a large variation in barrel weights. Both the 28 inch and the 30 inch barrels and both forearms are original to the gun and so marked.

jlb