Gents,
A contractor doing some work on our house brought me a double he acquired a few years ago. In referencing my books there's no way it was actually made by the original (pre-Winchester) company of that name.
In searching the forum I found this old thread...http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=277522
But nothing certain came from that, so I wonder if there are any updated insights. I noticed right off the bat that the frame does indeed look like an SAC gun, but as TopGun pointed out on the other thread, the lug is narrower on this one. I was also aware of the Baker C grade guns, but have never seen one, and this gun doesn't say Baker (or Fulsom, for that matter) anywhere.
It has no proof marks, nor any ID of the barrel type (I would guess Twist, but there's some variances in there that look different).
Lastly, just as the OP in the other thread noted, it appears to be etched rather than engraved. I say this primarily because of how shallow the cuts are.
OK, so all that said, does anyone know who made this gun?
Many thx for input. Pics below.
- Nudge
I say Baker C / New Era. I've also seen the same frame/ engraving stamped Montgomery Wards, Chicago-- made by Baker IIRC.
But wouldn't that mean theyd have had to acquired the New Haven name? Is that known?
Also, to whom (and for what) was the Aug 12, 1884 patent granted to? W.H. Baker?
- Nudge
Looks like a Syracuse to me. But, perhaps not, the pin pattern is different. I can't remember but I believe at least one other company's actions had the same triangular shape on the top side of the action. I'll bet the tubes have H.R.F. stamped on'em..
It very well may have been Baker, which also would explain the tubes, as Baker did source tubes from Heuse Riga-Fils.
After a little thought, I concur, Baker. I haven't had a chance to handle one of their boxlocks yet.
Regards
Ken
Ken61,
I own SAC's, and while you are right about the swept back frame that looks almost exactly alike, i can tell you that the cocking mechism is nothing alike. From even just a visual, the barrel lug is not nearly aa broad as an SAC.
Lastly, for that to be the case, the patent would have to be assigned to Frank Hollenbeck, given the date. And there are no Hollenbeck patents from 1884.
- Nudge
Yeah, it's a Baker. I was busy changing my post while you responded.
Baker did make "Trade Name" guns for others to sell. Some Batavia Leaders were marked "New Era" as well. Haven't been able to nail that one down yet, it may have been "The Field" in Chicago.
Those hybrid tubes are pretty sweet, with crolle irons worked into the twist pattern.
Here's another "New Haven" thread.
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=277660Regards
Ken
The pain of it is, in researching Google's patents info, I can't seem to find any Aug. 12, 1884 patents which would fit the bill.
I looked under Baker Gun, Syracuse Forging, W.H. Baker...cannot find an Aug. 12, 1884 patent reference.
Head scratcher...
- Nudge
Looks like a Baker C grade. I had one just like it that was made for Montgomery Wards. Baker made a fair number of guns for MW. I have two 12 32" side lock waterfowl guns they made for MW. Over eight pounds and choked .055 each barrel. Can't shoot them with plastic wads they are just too tight. Nice for fifty yard clay targets. With felt wads they work well.
KY Jon,
You could well be right. I think was has me most perplexed is that it says New Haven Arms Co. If it had some silly made up trade name it would make perfect sense. But New Haven Arms was a real company which changed its name to Winchester, so you have to think the name was still owned by either Winchester, or an investor, or SOMEBODY.
American Motors hasnt existed for decades, but i can guarantee you if you introduced a car by that name, SOMEBODY would arrive in court with paperwork to sue you.
So the question is...did Baker, for use as part of their New Era production, acquire the naming rights in order to use it as a trade name...?
Anybody, thoughts or evidence on that?
- Nudge
I'd bet this gun was made well after NHA became Winchester. Someone else had the name by then.
It may be the later "Baker Standard" action rather than the Grade C. It appears specific patent info is lacking.
Regards
Ken
Oh yeah, no doubt. I just meant, does it mean that Baker actually acquired the name...or maybe just there's some sort of statute of limitations on the ownership of a name that isnt in use.
New Haven Arms Co ceased to exist in 1866 (i think), so maybe by a certain date anyone could use it.
Im not asserting anything...just spitballing. So anyone with specific knowledge here, please chime in.
- Nudge
New Haven Arms may have been the name of a company. But was it regerstered and regerstered as a trade mark? If I had a name back then I would also regerstered a few knockoff names as well. Parker should also own Barker, T Barker, Westley Richards should have owned W.Richards.
Tough to cover'em all. If they'd tried, there would probably be tons of Belgium "Perkers" floating around...
Regards
Ken
I have a copy of "Two Shots" Multi-Barrel Long Gun Patents and their Inventors by Larry B Schuknecht.The only patent he lists for Aug 12, 1884 is #303411 issued to H Allender of Detroit MI. It is stated to cover Hammerless Cocking Mechanism, Lock Up, Single Trigger & Safety. Have not looked it up to see if it looks applicable to this gun or not.
2-piper,
Many thx. Sounds like a book i need to look out for.
- Nudge
Here is one marked New Era that also has the Patent date around the circle with the mad duck --
Here it is online.
Henry Allender Aug. 12, 1884 patent http://
www.google.com/patents?id=oLdAAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4&dq=henry+allender#PPA1,M1
Researcher,
I knew you'd chime in here some time. You nailed it...same scene with patent date and swirl flourishes above. Got to be New Era, as others suspected.
Do you think Baker acquired the name rights to New Haven, or think the name was just too many years out of use, ao they could do so freely?
- Nudge
It's not a "New Era" gun unless marked so. New Era was a Trade Name, owned by someone else other than Baker. Other makes than Baker were also marked New Era. Baker just marked them that way to order. Same deal as New Haven. I seriously doubt Baker owned any trade names. The important thing to note is that it is a Baker variant. I've got a Grade A (and several Batavia Leaders) in the shop right now, it has the same spring loaded wedge coming from the lug as the gun in Researcher's pic.
Whoever owned New Haven at that time thought that guns marked with their name had more marketing appeal than guns merely marked Baker. They probably had to pay extra for it.
Regards
Ken
Ken61,
Thx for clarifying Ken, i understand that New Era was a catchall name that included several makers guns. The important thing for me is that we nailed down the actual maker in this case...and it's Baker. Reasearcher's pics solved it, as this gent's gun is very obviously the same. Right down the identical etching and patent info. Same cocking mechanism, same protruding extractor cam. Definitely the same gun.
Now here's the followup: Can we date its DOM?
- Nudge
Daryl Hallquist
email: darylh1942@gmail.com
or
Chris Schotz
email: longbarrel50@hotmail.com
As most "Trade Name" guns were sold through retailers who were offering them at lower cost than the original Name, I seriously doubt that extra was charged for the name change. I do highly suspect a minimum quantity of guns had to be ordered in order to have the different name applied & most likely they were made to "Stock" without options as was often available from the make such as different chokes, stock fit etc.
Here is a link to some Baker info:
http://www.bakercollectors.com/index.php?p=1_10_PhotosThis is Daryl's page:
http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/17434920All the Baker C grade guns I have found (does not matter who's stamping) have 50,xxx ser# range. There is a later (1915?) boxlock. The Baker Standard and Baker Ejector,that is similar but not the same gun.
From Daryls site:
List of Trade/Sellers names on C grade Bakers:
New Era Gun Works
Montgomery Wards
New Haven Arms Co.(E.K.Tryon & Great Western Gun Works, Pittsburgh)
W. A. Abel & Co. Syracuse, NY
The Imperial, Clark's Imperial, Omaha, Neb
Very nice, Jason.
Do those barrels carry the H.R.F. initials on the tube undersides?
Regards
Ken
Don't know. Sold that one a few years back.
Thanks for the discussion of an interesting but little known American trade gun. I looked at the picture, saw the hook at the top of the frame, and said "that's a Syracuse" and forget the thread till I came back and read what your research and knowledge turned up.
Comparing the pins in the sides and the bottom of the frame, my SAC ia way different from the gun shown. And besides my Bakers are all sidelocks. You have to pay attention around here!..Geo
