Walt, There is an interesting Nitro Special on the Lefever forun that the owner is convinced is a factory original. Your name has been bantered about as being "THE" authority to verify its authenticity.

http://lefeverforum.informe.com/viewtopic.php?t=1674

Looks like something a GI got gussied up in occupied Japan or West Germany after WW-II.

The owner of that Nitro Special is EPICALLY confused. At a minimum it's good reading for a lunchtime giggle.

I wonder if he'd take a Parker Invincible in trade...


Nudge

I see on the Shooting Sportsman forum that Walt has been in touch with the owner and did not have much to say other than the serial number dated it to 1925.

After reading the thread on SS I hate to discuss the gun here. Owner is very proud of it and wants to believe it is something it is not. We know what it is, but as far as I'm concerned I think I'd rather let him believe what he wants to. Everything does not require correction and often folks are happier being wrong...Geo

I believe Pine Creek Dave is the gentleman who has been trolling a nickeled Smith for years in an attempt to locate some stolen from his family. Formerly known as Ryman Gun Dog on several forums. He knows what he has.

Dr. Bob - probably not worth confronting him but if you'd send me a PM I'll share his name. See you in Vegas.

A Nitro Special is still a Nitro Special. After market customized guns are nice, some better than others but not factory. The metal fit on a Nitro Special is decent but not very great. If that was a custom order gun Ithaca would either have used a Flues or NID as a platform. The wood would have been a much nicer grade of blank. That just looks like they took a field stock and carved it.

To me it looks a lot like one of the upgraded guns GIs had done in Japan. I knew of a Winchester 101 which had been restocked and engraved to look like a Kreighoff Crown Grade. The pattern was there but the fine detail was not. But the owner can choose to believe whatever he wants to but saying it does not make it so and when others, with far more Lefever or Ithaca experience don't agree with his views I put more faith in them than him.

If you want to do this to your gun have at it, but only if you have no intentions of selling it for what it is not.

I poured money into my Nitro Special to clean it up a bit with the intention it will never be for sell.

So did I lose money, how would I ever know?

What bothers me about this gun and this guy is that he is insistent on telling people, that know way more about such things than he does, that they are wrong and know nothing. And, he thinks the gun is of high quality workmanship. It is an insult to anyone out there who does strive to do quality work. But... there is a butt for every Seat. Some just don't know what seat they are sitting in.

Like this one of a kind NID?





The problem with these fancy aftermarket upgrades, as Researcher once wisely pointed out to me, is the question of whether or not the frames were properly re-hardened after having been annealed for engraving???...Geo

Wow,

I know little about Lefevers or the later Ithaca guns.

After reading the threads on the other forums, I'm suspect about intentions.

IMO, that guy is pushing a "Narrative" about that gun, in hopes of generating interest as well as increasing estimated value. It smacks of the first stage of a marketing campaign, and creation of pseudo-provenance. I wouldn't be surprised that in a year or so, perhaps sooner, it pops up for sale, accompanied by a heart rendering tale about how he has to sell it to pay for another child's education, or emergency surgery for a close relative.

I'd bet that guy is a big-time Ebay seller as well.

Regards
Ken

Geo,
That gun is nice compared to the one that is the subject of this thread.


This gun was for sale within the past 6 months. I think on GI. I remember seeing it and moving on. As i recall, it was not being sold as anything it wasnt. And the price was not very out of whack. But i cant recall specifically, i just know that i have seen it before.

Tough one, he asked. I can't see why the fellow wouldn't make a little follow up comment once he got in contact, I guess, with W.S., unless? It doesn't seem to be just a pride issue. I think he was trying to promote it? Seemed a bit gratuitous with that awkward comment about putting his deaf daughter through college. The gun would make for interesting discussion, I think, if the fellow really wanted to.

That may have been one of the Lefevers Bass Pro had in Springfield 10 or soyears ago they wanted $6000 for. Their buyer, who later worked for Cabela's ended up with serious legal issues for his buying and selling practices!?! If any of you are interested I have some waterfront property just south of Grand Isle La. ??? lol

I read that post on SSMan
The guy said he had never been on our site here,but I remember him as Beans,but it was a few years ago ,perhaps the old board here?.
He was always going on n on about the amazing quality of the LC Smith (Master Gun Makers) & still is.
He seems to be in his own little world, though there is nothing wrong with that,of course ,as I am in mine, sometimes, lol
cheers
Franc

B. Dudley,

Your point is well made, which is why he's kicked up such a fuss on multiple forums. When at first he just seemed to be happy but confused, people genuinely stepped forward to offer help. But this guy...it's as if he doesn't WANT to know the truth of it. And as others have suggested, it's as if he's threading a narrative for a future sale of this backyard-engraved hardware store gun.

His reading comprehension just doesn't seem to be good enough to distinguish between (a) Syracuse sideplate Lefevers, (b) post-1916 sideplate Lefevers assembled by Ithaca from parts (so-called "transition" guns, to use his term), and (c) Ithaca's original 1921-introduced Nitro Special, which has no relation to A & B in terms of either design or heritage.

Poor Dan...the man second only to John Browning in terms of patents...bears the indignity of having his name stamped on Ithaca's 'farm tools.'

Sooner or later somebody is going to see one of these threads and pipe-in, "Yeah, my Dad sold that gun at such-and-such gun show. His brother did the engraving in exchange for two used car tires and a box of smokes."

"$1,000 grade" Lefever indeed. That 'whittled' Nitro is more like "$250 grade"...in 2017.

Nudge

he is not new at this- has been around for a long time under a couple names - on Shooting Sportsman, the Bird Dogs and Doubles forums, and here under another name no tell? where else - the Upland board?

maybe he is looking to build a base that a search will find before selling it- but his first post was years ago on this gun- its just as likely he is getting a kick out of stirring things up,

I remember him driving some Old Hemlock guys who really did know George Bird Evans well absolutely nuts many years ago with his expertise/relationship to GBE -

so- read it and laugh - or let it go - nothing has changed in the very long time I have been on the same boards

Dave is Dave.
Too much Agent orange I think.
But I don't care. It's his set of delusions, and the marketplace will address them someday.

FWIW, I hold delusional Dave in much higher regard than the so-called gentlemen that have persecuted him on the internet for the last 20 years.

He doesn't seem to know any better than what he types.
The gang of school boys that chase him around certainly do.

Wow. I've got a Nitro Special. Can I post on the LeFever board?


Best,
Ted

On the face of it, he seems to present himself as an authoritative expert. At least, the gang had comments about the gun and the company.

Looking at it closely its been upgraded rather poorly and those guys over there are brutal on this fool. I just hope he doesn't wonder over to this board.

I think the tone of their comments changed over time. At first they were quite gentle in explaining what he had. As he pushed his version of facts they became more direct. When he refused to accept anything that did not say what he wanted to hear they basically sent him over here to Walt.

The Lefever board gets Nitro posting from time to time and does a decent job of explaining they are Lefevers in name only. The design is completely different and not one that was ever associated with Uncle Dan.

I agree, and they were rather patient with him at first but then their patience wore a little thin when he kept up with his gibberish. Like I said I sure hope he stays over there with his factory 'High' grade Nitro Special.

That's Beans. When I first saw it, I was pretty sure it was a Nitro Special. Eventually confirmed that--and he now knows it. I suggested that he contact Walt. He did, so stated on SSM. He's proud of it, and it is indeed a "one of a kind" gun--as is any that's been custom-engraved, had the stock carved, etc. He was looking for provenance and has run into a blank wall. Not at all a surprise.

As long as he's happy with it and isn't trying to sell it . . . As MarkII pointed out earlier, for quite some time Bass Pro was listing Nitros as real Lefevers, and pricing them accordingly. That, IMO, is a different situation.

When he kept talking about this "Crossover" gun having an underpinned rotary bolt it was quite obvious he either knew absolutely not whereof he spoke or thought we were all dummies & knew nothing at all & was trying to pull a snow job. I asked for a picture of the rib extension on the Lefever board to which he never responded. He likewise refused to give the SN. I pointed out that Ithaca did not bring out the NS until 1921 & any Lefever Ams Co gun built/assembled at Ithaca in 19165 would be the old Sideplate design, not this Boxlock style. He never responded to this either. He did however badmouth us all on the other board & did in fact put a pic of the rid extension up there. Pure wedge bolt ala Nitro Special, nothing rotary about it. Obviously he was not seeking any info at all.
As stated everyone was courteous to him in the beginning, anything else he brought on himself.

2-piper I've been on boards which would have ripped him a new axxhole from the start and gone up from there. Most shooting boards try to keep it civil as a rule. Otherwise it just degenerates into a dog fight every time and nothing new ever is learned or enjoyed.

I wonder if that gun was a project of one of the gunsmith trade school pupils learning different aspects of metal and wood working or a self trained home gunsmith. It would make sense for one of them to start with a low price platform. Or perhaps it was some guys pride and joy who decided to put a few hundred dollars into a gun worth fifty dollars at the time. Either way the level of work does not impress me that much. Makeup on a pig is still make up on a pig.

Geo, when I read this, I immediately thought that this sentiment must explain why you have tolerated Kingsley Brown's incessant bullshit here. I confess, I felt the same way until I got sick of his 2nd Amendment bashing and blind support for anti-gun politicians.

I read the threads on the other boards concerning this Nitro Lefever. I hesitate to call it an upgrade although the owner places it in the same level as the highest grade Lefever or L.C. Smith guns. Something is missing though. I think it would look better with an Ed Good torch coloring job. Since Walter Snyder hasn't replied to this thread yet, I'll conclude he is either consumed with envy, or busy... rolling on the floor and laughing his ass off.

It would not surprise me to see a thread right here in the near future by Jagermeister where he is contemplating buying this gussied-up Nitro Special. Well meaning folks here will warn him about it, but those who know Jagermeister will know that he is just kicking tires again, and that he doesn't even own any double guns.

The other thing that jumped out at me from reading those threads on the Lefever forum and the Shooting Sportsman forum is that Larry Brown has over 26,600 posts on the SS forum. Considering that he also has over 18,000 posts on the http://www.notssmbbs.com/ forum, over 10,000 posts on Upland Journal, and over 9000 posts here, one wonders when he has time to actually shoot anything except his keyboard. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that he has tens of thousands of posts on other firearms forums and blogs. He also spends a LOT of time on those other boards defending the actions of Muslims, which comes as no surprise. Since Larry has me on IGNORE, I know none of this will hurt his sensitive feelings.

Newton N. Minow was the former FCC Chairman who famously said "Television is a vast wasteland." I wonder what his thoughts are on the internet.

JESUS H. CHRIST, KEITH!

Why do you have to make everything so personal?

The constant, acrimonious, reiteration of these personal attacks reminds me of my ex-wife, WHICH I DO NOT NEED.

Please think about this.

Regards
Ken

You're absolutely right Ken. I thought about it, and I should not have mentioned Newton N. Minow by name.

By the way, did you know that the S.S. Minnow on the "Gilligan's Island" show was sarcastically named after Mr. Minow after he made his famous testimony about the state of television before Congress? I'm not sure if he owned any doubles, or was a close personal friend of John F. Kennedy and Martin Luther King, or produced an award winning wine which was actually made by someone else though.

I'll bet Komrade Sralin would know the answer to that! Touche and a Happy New Year to you too.

Now Keith,

You know I respond to King's posts without dredging up everything I've ever said to him. (Or him to me) I use refutation and rebuttal, always relating directly to what he has said.

You generally repeat litanys you've created consisting of past afronts, which is not much different than the repetitive posts that got Misfire's closed. If you'll notice, I only use my "pet name" for King when he insults America.

Please "See the Light".

Ken

Ken,

Respectfully, in my opinion, the thing that got Misfires closed was little different than what got the Second Amendment Informational Thread removed from it's place at the top of this page. I really don't miss Misfires, but I regret that certain folks here think they can now pretend to be something they aren't. That's why I frequently "dredge up" things I know they would like to think are gone.

I totally understand your pet name for King, and chuckle every time I see it. I wish there were more people here with your intellect, your tenacity, and your regard for our Constitution..

PM sent to answer your concerns, and all the best to you my friend.

Thanks, and a happy New Year to you. We'll continue this by PM.

Regards
Ken

Sad how threads get diverted.

People are capable of reason, but unfortunately not prone to it.

I wish people would argue based on the subjects raised and avoid the personal, which includes speculation about why the original pooster erred, as opposed to discussing what he is in error about.

Upgrading guns in Germany was not uncommon. The NID he posted photos of though not a true Lefever is nice, but still an upgrade.

I appreciate the knowledge of those who see the tell tale signs so I can learn from them.

As for the ad hominem attacks, I don't see the value in them and they reveal more about the frustration of the poster than they do about the target.

They may be in part right, though I can't know that and most likely they can't either


PS God Bless you keith

Do note the gun in question was not an NID, it was a Nitro Special. As to whether or not it is an Upgrade depends upon ones definition of Upgrade. I think of an Upgrade as when ones takes one of the basic models of a particular model & has it "Up-Graded" to a higher grade of that same model gun. Example take an H grade Lefever & upgrade it to an A grade.
With this definition this gun was not an Upgrade as Ithaca never made a Nitro Special in a grade such as this.

Miller, I think Old COL is referring to the photos posted back on p. 1--not the Nitro Special.

In both cases, perhaps more accurate to describe them as "customized" guns vs upgrades.

With Larry on this one. Customized guns are one thing. They often involve frame sculpting and custom non-factory style engraving. Upgrading it trying to take something like a Parker VHE and turning it into an AH. Or take a Fox A grade and turn it into a D grade. I've done both and like both equally. I have as I've gotten a bit older like the upgrades more then the customs.

The subject gun of this thread was the "Up-Gradsed"?? gun marked Lefever Arms Co, Ithaca NY. I assumed that was the gun Old COL was referring to as he chastised those who "Got off Thread".
As such it is a Nitro Special, Not an NID. An NID would not carry the Lefever name on it.
If in fact he was referring to the NID which was shown as an example then I apologize. I believe though it would still not be classified as an Up-Grade as it does not follow the pattern of higher grade NID's

No apology needed and no offense taken.

My point is some posts are pointed as personal diatribes and not helpful. I Normally abstain from commenting on them, but this thread just tripped my trigger.

I accept the correction on NID vs Nitro Special.

Upgrade vs Customized is in some respects subjective. It would be nice if the language used in gun industry was consistent, but there are examples of the companies themselves for advertising purposes twisting things about.

I agree you defining the actions on the guns as customization is a better terminology than mine of Upgrade and accept that "Upgrade" is better used if the gun was changed to reflect the specific features of a higher grade gun. The only challenge when looking at specific models or grades is that the companies themselves were not consistent on their features within their grading as many of the higher grades were custom orders.

All said the thread which started with the focus of whether the gun left factory with the engraving, carving et al or was an after market job I believe the collective wisdom is it did not.

I find the reasoning of those who held that on both this site and the Lefever site sound in terms of the metal fit, model, and knowledge of then factory products convincing.

Actually old colonel, it is just a matter of WHO comments that trips your trigger. I note that you offered your personal blessing to me right after you made your lecture on getting personal.

While you are on your knees, maybe you can ask the Lord to cure you of your hypocrisy, as we discussed in your recent PM exchange to me.

It is not WHO, it is what and how. Your reaction to my comment proves my point.

Your policy of introduction of personal attack is what it is. You insertions into threads pointed at individuals, has no place on this board. I am waiting for your development of the cut and paste inserts on me as you have others. Maybe if you look hard enough you can find something evil in my soul I have missed. I can't imagine how much energy you have spent saving tidbits for your diatribes.

If you take it personally, so be it; there are many on this board who are offended by your repeated diverting dribble.

You have demonstrated some good knowledge of doubleguns and have contributed positively and could contribute more positively to this board. Unfortunately with the good comes your usual nastiness.

I can live with your belief I am a hypocrite, just as I live with the belief you hide behind your screen name and your attacks are mean spirited, nasty, and generally valueless. I once thought in another place and time I could enjoy a drink and conversation with you. Not sure it is worth the bother.

If you don't like your rants being pointed out then don't rant.

Its being represented for what it is not. That's the rub right there.

Sorry old colonel, your initial post and subsequent response proves only that one man's perceived rant is frequently met by another man's hypocritical personal attack which he refuses to consider because he is blinded by personal animus. Because of that, I find you personally mean spirited, nasty, and offensive, but that doesn't stop you from sharing your highly selective and off-topic opinion. So why would I respect anything you've said, either here or in your PM's? Maybe you should ask Dave to banish me since you have appointed yourself as moderator and arbiter of what is acceptable. Or maybe you should go back to your prior vow to simply ignore me.

As per your request, here's one of your own personal attacks on King's motives and veracity. It didn't take much time at all to find it.

"King, you are baiting people, but I will briefly rise to it.

Castro overthrew a failed dictatorship which denied people for the benefit of itself and a rich business class, he replaced it with a tyranny of murder, imprisonment, and torture.

The billpayers were the Cuban people. The argument they are better off is specious at best. Assuming you were right, which I do not believe to be the case, it is improvement with a collar and chain attached." old colonel, post #463711 on 11/27/16 from the locked "Fidel Is Finally Good" thread

I guess, in your mind, saying that King is baiting people is so much nicer than simply calling him an anti-2nd Amendment troll, which happens to be my opinion based upon his own words that I sometimes quote just for your pleasure. And I have to admit that "specious at best" sounds a lot nicer than "dishonest" or "deceitful". I may have to use that one myself. Thanks.

This response to one of King's posts seemed a bit harsh, but it's nice to see we sometimes agree on things:



Still, it is pretty strong language to say that Liberals lie all the time, even if they do it so often it seems that way. Is calling them "illiberals" an unacceptable attack on mentally ill people... something like Libtards? Hypocrisy is such a terrible thing, especially when you are in deep denial.

By the way, did I mention how off-topic you are? Oh, sorry, I keep forgetting that going off-topic and getting personal is only permitted for some people... like you. Don't bother musing about whether you'd care to share a drink with me. You can keep your drink and your disingenuous blessings.

Your reply reveals a complete failure on your part to differentiate between debate and the personal attacks. It may, reveal that you simply do not understand the difference and perceive any difference of opinion a personal attack; a rather small and senseless position. I would explain as you appear to not understand while it may be useless.

Your position, as I seem to hear you argue holds it is better to call out names like “Troll” and “Libtard” than to address the issues. If you see my terminology as “a lot nicer,” it is because it is nicer. Gentlemen strive to argue with some civility. You attacks seek no civility as you point out in this thread with terminology of direct insult.

By the way a good example of a “troll” on the internet is to go after someone insultingly whenever they post. Would you agree with that? But I digress.

Calling someone a hypocrite is very different than indicating contradictions in their argument.

Let us use your examples of me to demonstrate. In the first case I replied to an argument put forth by King Brown and in the subject of the thread Fidel Castro. It was not an inject of animus or in any way out of character with the focus of the thread’s beginning, but a pointed counter to the position put forth by King. It was in no way a diversion of the subject.

You should go back and note the reply to my statements by King, prior to the thread being closed, with me unable to further counter. King addressed arguments as I did and though we differ significantly we were able to do so civilly and without insult.

I left the thread closed and did not jump on him in later threads rehashing old arguments. I did not seek him out on unrelated threads and attack him out of context.

Let us move to your next example which was within a specific gun control discussion on the thread titled “Do We Need More Gun Laws?” I guess I should have explained to the less perceptive that “illiberal” are not ill, but actually not liberal. If someone took that offense they choose it by choosing the position described. I find the description of the left in America as liberal offensive against the term itself and a matter of false advertising. Our founding fathers were true liberals who believed in the rights of the individual against the tyranny of an all powerful government. The greatest documents of liberalism are our Declaration of Independence and our Constitution with its first Ten Amendments.

My arguments were focused not on an individual like King, but on the quoted editorial of the New York Times he used and I quoted; those of the illiberal NYT and the left overall. But I went on and in my extensive post, which you only lightly quote, to give examples of fact on how the left’s arguments are false. It seems you don’t get that and I can only blame myself for not more simplistically and explicitly expressing that point.
Fascinatingly King appears to have understood the argument was just that an argument which he responded to in counter argument. Neither of us engaged in personally name calling. In a later post within the same thread even King admitted “It (NYT) is a liberal newspaper, and it reflects a liberal bias, true.”
You are correct that I use “strong language.” I use it for purpose.

Your accusations that I am “off topic” in my countering your off topic posts within this thread is rather ridiculous. Especially given that even prior to my post someone else called out your post for what it was a personal attack.

My purpose in going after your posting was not so much about your poor manners in name calling. It was and is about your diversions on our board. Your attacks on George and on Larry were out of place in this thread. I neither care to defend them or not which they can do if they wish.

I can live with your arguments which I long ago should have given up during our last exchange to include PMs to convert. I only argue for you to not do as you accuse me of diverting the threads. Can’t you hold back? Of course it is a stupid question on my part as I have little doubt you won’t

I rose to the bait of your diversion to call it out for what it is. If I had only signed in my normal “ignore” blocking your posts I would have missed it and gone by.

I guess every now and again I will be pulled back into laying out what I think of your actions to you as you do to me. Free speech is something I think you believe in, though attempts at good manners you may not.

Per your request I won’t say “Bless You” with all its intent, but think it just the same.

Old COL, you'll feel a sense of relief if you just consign keith to the ignore category. When it comes to ranting, he's like an alcoholic who isn't interested in giving up the bottle.

"A Gentleman is someone who only insults another Man intentionally".

-Winston Churchill.

I agree, ignore is a good tool, but only works if signed in, I simply failed that time to sign in and allowed myself to be hooked briefly

Ken, I concur with your definition and note Churchill was quite adept at turning words well.

One member believes one size fits all, old colonel. The board is doing well. One member is malicious. Count our blessings!

Cannot agree on use of malicious

Fair enough. Call it what you will. Oxford English Dictionary's first description of the meaning of malicious is "active ill will." "Cherish vindictive feelings against" is another. Both appear to meet the poor standard you mentioned above.

Hmmm. Good point. Of course, posts that profess an ideology that seeks to deprive others of their Freedom and Liberty would certainly qualify as well.

Somewhat different than merely going "Off Topic" and bringing up past, unrelated positions.

i have never gone on a candian sxs site,i have never got involved in canadian politics,or policy's except to share a canadian subjects opposition to it.so king is malicious toward united states presidents.good ole king

C'mon, mc, I'm just like you, admiring some presidents, less so others, just as I do our prime ministers. Some members are tired of my praising Obama as one who will go down in history as one of the best. What's malicious in that? Just an opinion on an international board, no better than yours.

Civil exchanges of opinions escape maliciousness, Ken. As for personal freedom, what's freedom for some is the lash for others, a reason for governance regulating how people relate to each other.

Yah, you guys stop picking on King. He's the victim here. Hey, have I ever mentioned what a misogynist Trump is? Me and you ought to get some gal to run against him and put him in his place, eh?

king my point is you description of malicious ,and you comments about president bush,by you definition you are being malicious about pres bush.i don't know if anyone mentions canadian leadership except the little fellow who was praising fidel castro.after the much approved by me, death of castro.i don't agree with pres, obamma i don't agree on his leadership capabilities.i don't like his regulations or the harm he has done to the private sector and our standing on the world stage.the dirty trick he pulled at the UN on our ally Israel.if he was truly a leader he would have discussed the settlement problem and solution ,and being a strong leader a solution to the problem that would be mutually acceptable to both sides.

It carved like cane my grandpa used to have. I suspect it was wonderfully enhanced in Austria or West Germany. The owner must have been at least a colonel.

Your and my criticism of American and Canadian leaders, expressed in our opinions as above, are not malicious. They may be differences of opinion but only malicious if we are insulting and disrespectful of each other, name-calling and the rest, schoolyard kid stuff which we set aside as adults. (The description of malicious is not mine; it's the OED's, one of the world's most distinguished.)

It was more than a mention, craig. He declared his misogyny publicly to the world, a professed right of celebrity to take what you want from women. Not for nothing some gal finished with millions more votes than he did.

I would not worry Barack Hussain Obama is going to have better legacy then George W. Bush. Now let us get back to discussing made at Ithaca "Lefevers".

We've got to stop hijacking these threads.

I can understand why other members get upset by this.

Dave, please bring Misfires back, so we can avoid imposing on others.

Regards
Ken

Yes, let us keep on discussing most affordable American SxS classic that is still worth buying the Nitro Special.

Oh yeah! Now I'm steamed. It was not for nothing, that chicago finished with thousands more shootings than NS, take that! They rolled up their sleeves and progressed beyond your wildest dreams, eh? Next up, 47% of dems are gonna poo on putin, don't believe me, you wait and see.

Needed that lift this morning, craig. Thanks. But still gonna take my ball and go home!