Santa brought me a lovely Beretta side by side and it has no model number. The serial number is A01293A and it the same for all 3 pieces.
On the top of the barrels is inscribed "High Strength Chromium Molybdenum Steel -S- ". Other than the name and place of the maker (Pietro Beretta - Gardone V.T.) there is no other marking that may lead to a date or model number.
Are there any Beretta experts out there that can offer any suggestions where or how I could identify this lovely old ?? shotgun?
Thanks for your help;
Twogone

Hello Twogone

Welcome on your first posting.

Look into the proof markings, they will provide a year of manufacture.

http://www.shotguns.se/html/italy.html

You said, but gotta ask, any numbers on the underside of the barrels between the breech and the forend hanger?

ALSO

Pictures would be most helpful

Again, WELCOME
Mike

Mike

Many thanks for responding to my post. I will attempt to supply photos but I am technologically inept so it may take a while. Yea; there are lots of markings on the underside of the barrels. When I have a minute I will check them. Company arriving any minute and the old hen is clucking away about me being behind the computer.
Cheers & thanks again!
Twogone

If you can email photos to me (or, Mike, above) we will get them up on the board for you.

tedjs@usfamily.net

Happy New Year.

Best,
Ted

The model number of Beretta sxs is often found on the underside of the forend wood. The old Silver Hawks, for example--imported to the States back in the 60's--were actually a version of the Model 409 made for the American market. And 409 was stamped on the underside of the forend wood.

Thanks Ted; I have emailed a couple of photos.
Cheers;
Twogone

Thanks Mike; pictures coming via Ted.
Cheers;
Twogone

Picture of the flat on OP's Beretta:



The OP also took the time to produce this spiffy line drawing of what the marks on the flats look like.



Italian proof marks aren't something I have taken the time to memorize, and my last Italian gun, the 20 gauge Prandelli and Gasperini that was donated to my cause seemed to be suspiciously missing a few, including date and chamber length markings. My copy of Wernsberger has disappeared, as well.
You guys give it a try. However, it looks like this may be a 3" gun, by the 76 marking.


Best,
Ted

Might be 1975, also.

Best,
Ted

AA is indeed 1975.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Summary:

M= Modified
F= Full

AA = 1975

CAM76 = 3" Magnum

18.6 is bore diameter in millimeters

PB = Beretta

KG 1.400 raw barrel weight in Kilograms

A01293A = Serial Number

PSF with Star, & Finito with Star = Final Proofed in Gardone and Brescia

http://www.shotguns.se/html/italy.html

http://www.phoenixinvestmentarms.com/archives/proofmarks.pdf

With a 1975 date, it's likely a GR series gun. Can't tell for sure from the photo whether it has ejectors, but looks like extractors. That would make it a GR-2. Ejectors would = either GR-3 or 4.

Ted, if you have an old Blue Book lying around, you can find Italian date codes in the serialization appendix.

To do a bit of English conversion on SkeetX's figures, 18.6mm = .732" & 1.400kg = 3lb 1+oz.

WOW! Thanks for all the info. I knew it was a 3" but it had not occurred to me (my shame; a metric Canuck too!) that the "76" may be millimeters which is almost exactly 3". So, it appears to be of 1975 vintage. Any ideas regarding a model number or name? There is not a lot of engraving so I'm guessing it's not one of Beretta's exclusive guns. I'm dying to try it out at the turkey shoot on New Years day. Thanks again for all your help.
Cheers;
Twogone

Silly me, I was still on page 1 and had not seen the above 3 posts. It has extractors rather than ejectors (thankfully).
Twogone

Silly me again. I unintentionally withheld so pertinent information. It's a 12 gauge with a single trigger. Most, if not all of the GR2's pictured on the internet are double trigger.
Twogone

I'm pretty sure the GR3-4 guns were all 2-3/4" chambers? Pics of frame would help.

I will take some more photos and attempt to post them.
Cheers; Twogone

In this time period the gun is likely a Model 424.
The GR designation is a Garcia importer designation, not a Beretta model, I believe.
Would be helpful to have more pictures or a thorough description of the gun's features.

IIRC someone here told me that GR guns were 426's and that seems reasonable since they are both cross bolted. The barrel in the pic does not seem to have that lug. Def an extractor and skeettx has all the other bases way covered.

so, 424?


have another day
Dr.WtS

One source I have says the 424 was not imported until 1977. Here's a good clue to a GR model: Look at the profile of the receiver where it meets the head of the stock. Rather than a straight back to the receiver, there will be a rather shallow C-shaped profile. And I believe that the receiver was blued on all the GR-series guns. A GR-3, according to one source I'm looking at, should have a single trigger and extractors. That'd be my bet based on the information provided to date. If everything else matches with what I posted above, I'd say it's 99%.

Focusing on Garcia imported guns to the US is not relevant. The OP is in Canada. Secondly, there are many routes for the gun to arrive since production.
The 424 was produced 1971 to 1982, and was without a third locking bite.
Confirmation will come with better pictures.

I have a GR3 12 ga and it is definitely not cross-bolted, but is ST and ejectors with blued frame. I also have a 425 12 ga, and the frame profile is identical to the GR3, and the wood is interchangeable between the two guns. I also have a 426E 20 ga, and it is ST with ejectors and a cross bolt. The 425 and the 426E have coin finished frames, and the 426E has pretty nice engraving, appears to be hand cut. All are 2-3/4" chambers. OP's gun appears to have 3" chambers.

I have just emailed a few more photos of this gun to Ted who kindly offered to put them on the board for me. I measured the barrel length and it is 76 cm which is 30" so perhaps the 76 stamped on the underside refers to that rather than the chamber length although it does say " CAM 76 ). I don't have any 3" ammunition but a spent 3 1/2 " casing with the crimp folded back in almost fits in the chamber. There is about 1/2 " that still sticks out when the casing bottoms out in the chamber. I sure do appreciate all the help you are all providing me on this. Cheers; Twogone

3 inch chamber for sure
Now have you looked on the barrel side of the WOOD forearm for any stampings?
Mike

More photos. Has the right lines for a serious clays or waterfowl gun, me thinks:












Best,
Ted

I don't think that is a GR3. Single trigger and vent rib look right, but the lack of engraving on the breech balls tells me it's a lower grade. Frame profile and wood fit look like my GR3 and 425. This one looks like it has no grip cap, and the few GR3s that I have seen all had grip caps. Another indication that it is probably a lower grade.

I'm not sure what a grip cap is but there is a plastic cap (with the Beretta logo) screwed to the bottom of the pistol grip.
It's light, it's balanced and swings like a dream. The Russian snows, the Canada honkers and the local mallards are going to be is some serious trouble next season. In the interim I'll warm it up on some sporting clays.
Thanks for your help & Cheers;
Twogone

Monobloc style breech? Did you ever pull the forend wood to see if the Modell was penciled under it?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Other than the serial number there are no markings under the fore-stock on the fore-stock it's self or on the barrel.
Twogone

Well . . . we are neighboring countries. Not sure why it would be harder to make it to Canada from the States than for someone to bring it back to Canada from Italy. I've seen Berettas that were likely bring-backs from Italy. No importer's name, which was required under our Gun Control Act of 1968.

From the photos, sure looks like a GR-something to me. An old Gun Traders Guide I have says the GR-2 is supposed to have DT, and the 12ga is supposed to be 2 3/4", 20ga 3". The 3 is supposedly ST with a 3" chamber in 12ga. My memory may be a bit hazy on the 424, but I recall the ones I've seen had coin finished vs blued receivers.

Canada had a different importer for Berettas, so we had Beretta designations S55,S56 when you had BL-4, BL-5 from Garcia. Not to say there are no US imported Berettas in Canada from the 60s and 70s,just fewer.
The GR-2, GR-3 of this date are catalogued with Greener crossbolt and engraving that this gun lacks, which lead me to the 424.

That is solid gun quality wise equal to BSS box lock. That is same gun they made for Charles Daly. The Charles Daly which they called 'Empire' came in 12ga, 16ga, and 20ga. Those guns are not marked Beretta and can usually be had for less cash.
I have actually held 16ga in my hands at one time. Heck I didn't even know Beretta made inexpensive 16ga SxS doubles until I seen that one.

At same time they made engraved one with on "French Gray" receiver and Greener X-bolt plus selective automatic ejectors. I do not remember what it was called, but 10ga version of that was also made.

The GRs imported by Garcia into the US all seem to be cataloged with a vented rib, circa 1972 or so:



Comparing what Garcia imported to the US from Beretta to what showed up in Canada might very well be a fool's errand.


Best,
Ted

The gun in the photos clearly does not have a crossbolt. And Ted's catalog indicates the 12's should have one, at least the GR-2--and I'd doubt they'd drop the crossbolt on the GR-3 if the GR-2 has one. On the other hand, someone a few posts back says he has a GR-3 without crossbolt. I wonder if at a later date--Twogone's gun being from a few years later than Ted's catalog--the crossbolt might have been dropped?

Not unusual to find things that don't quite match what this or that model is supposed to have. And in this case, without Garcia being indicated as the importer, it's likely the gun was maybe a Canadian import but essentially the same gun we were getting in the States as the GRs, maybe with a few differences. The old Silver Hawk, imported back in the 60's, was basically a 409 (so stamped on the underside of the forend wood), but with some modifications for the American market: no sling swivels, pistol grip vs small round knob, beavertail vs splinter forend.

I have the GR3 without crossbolt. I'd post a pic but it is about 100 miles from me right now. Re the Silverhawk, Beretta may have intentionally confused a lot of shooters by putting a silver hawk on a lot of their guns. My 20 ga 426E has a big, fat, silver hawk on the top lever. Looks more like a pigeon.

I have a GR3 (stamped G3), SST, extractor, definitely cross bolted. It does not look like the one in the pix cosmetically. If the pix of 426's from google are observed that is what a GR looks like but the actions are all blued AFAIK, including a couple GR4 and one GR5 that I've seen.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/51436459@N08/albums/72157634504606428

the stock alone is GR4

have another day
Dr.WtS

WOW! Wonko, nice gun

The gun illustrated here has a lot of similarities with my Beretta sxs but the main difference is the cross bolt (which mine does not have). I did a pattern test yesterday and was amazed at how little kick there was for such a light field gun. I'm used to getting hammered by my father's old BELGIUM or my grandfathers Jeffrey. They are both double triggered so I can't use them anymore because I damaged my trigger finger with a table saw and can only fire a single triggered gun.
Are we any closer to a fairly accurate identification? My reasons for wanting to know are #1 - curiosity and #2 - possibly looking for a second set of barrels for skeet.
Again; I want to thank all you folks for all your help and expert advice & have a Happy, healthy & prosperous New Year!
Cheers; Twogone

I think there is a snowball's chance in July of finding a spare set of barrels.
You would look a while to find another similar gun in Canada.
I believe it conforms to the specs of the 424 as listed in vintage books and catalogues and Wilson's Beretta history.

I once had a Beretta S55BV with duck barrels (Silver Snipe)
I wanted skeet barrels so I sent a letter to Beretta
and gave them the serial number and model and said I wanted
a set of skeet barrels. I asked what I needed to do. They said
send money and an address they already had the specs for my shotgun.
I was in the country of Turkey but rotating home so I sent the money and a stateside address, in a few months here they came
and fit right on. go figure.

This was in 1979.

Mike

Couple problems with this gun as a 424: Cabela's shows a 424 on Guns International. It has a silver receiver (I'd call it more French grey than coined), and it does not appear to have a vent rib. I can't recall having seen a 424 with a blued receiver or a vent rib or a single trigger. Were all of those options available on the 424?

I'm hanging with the GR, or whatever variant of a GR might have been imported in Canada, or possibly brought back from Italy. We know they were offered with blued receivers, single triggers, and vent ribs.

To see guns that look very much like the one we're discussing here, go to Guns International and look under Charles Daly shotguns. Check out the Charles Daly Empire Grade sxs. Cabela's have 2 of them, Mark Beasland a 3rd. Other than a beavertail vs splinter (or maybe semi) and a nonselective single trigger, they look to be very close matches.

Given "Black Onyx" (I think other name was 626--blackened action and choke tubes) had no x-bolt and some were made for 89mm magnum cartridges indicates that only Purdey double under-bolts are needed for sufficient strength. They could have made cross-bolt and no cross-bolt "GR" variants at same time for different markets. While in Anglophile countries x-bolts are not admired they are loved in places like Germany and Austria. "Fritzies" certainly love extra bolting.

WOW!!!! I can't believe you folks. What a wealth of information and knowledge. I can't thank you enough for all your thoughtful input into my so very insignificant inquiry. I wish you all a very happy, healthy & prosperous New Year and some fantastic shooting in 2017.
Cheers; Twogone

Twogone, you'll find this place very helpful that way. We both like to help and to try and solve puzzles like the one you've presented to us.

Who was Beretta's importer to Canada in that era? It shouldn't be too tough to come up with a catalog, or a reproduction, from Abey Books to find out.

There are plenty of Galeif and Garcia catalogs, and I doubt anyone else was importing Beretta while those two companies were doing it. But, maybe there were several importers to Canada?

Also, if the big market (US versus Canada) had guns speced a certain way, it would make sense that the Canadian market got things just a little bit different, to ease possible production shortages. Maybe no vent ribs in Canada, or cross bolts, on guns that usually had both, here in the US?

Best,
Ted

Mike,
DO you still have the gun? That sounds like a winner. My Silver Snipe, plain as vanilla ice cream, is one of my favorites. 26" barrels, Mod and Imp Mod chokes. Great pheasant gun.

You ever decide to part company with that one, remember me. I'd be interested.


Shoot it in good health. Happy New Year.


Best,
Ted

The gun left my company some time ago
I was bewitched by a Browning Superposed
Mike

How do you feel about the trade now that you've used the Superposed for some time, Mike?

I cannot see myself ever getting rid of my 20 ga. 687 SP II Sporting for a Superposed. It is a death ray.



SRH

Well, I sure do like my superposed shotguns
Some are four barrel sets (12,20,28, 410)
And one is a three barrel set (20, 28, 410)
And another is a set of skeet and a set of broadway barrels.
They are just plain fun guns.
Really enjoy the 20 gauge lightweight with IC/Mod chokes.
Mike

I'm much the same, but I guess the Italian guns just suit me better. I have a Verona 30", 28/410 two barrel set, that suits me to a "T", too. I don't think I have ever seen a better "value for the quality" O/U gun than the Verona 692 LX Gold Combo (two barrel set). I bought mine, with 30" barrels, for around $1400 as I recall, 4-5 years ago. The quality is on par with the Beretta, IMO. They were made by F.A.I.R. (Isidoro Rizzini).



Glad you like the Brownings, Mike. Thanks for the reply.

All my best, SRH

FAIR (I. Rizzini) is now sending sxs this way. I saw one recently on John Boyd's website. Would like to see one in the flesh. I thought the FAIR OU's were pretty nice guns back when New England Arms was still in business and was importing them. And when NEA went out of business, Cabela's bought up those guns and offered them at pretty attractive prices in their Gun Libraries.

Hello, My name is Mike and I am a shotgunaholic !!

"Hello, My name is Mike and I am a shotgunaholic !!"

Good one.

Life is too short to own a gun as ugly as a Kreighorrff


have another day
Dr.WtS