Looking for any and all info on SxS shotguns built by he Hunter Arms Co. but without L.C. Smith brand. I'm considering a 16 gauge that a local shop is selling. It is choked Mod and Full which I will need to have opened up.
What can anyone tell me about these guns? Anything to be wary of? Any links to info? All my internet and forum searches only turn up info on L.C. Smith guns.
Thanks
The Hunter Arms box lock shotguns were made very well.
Hunter Arms made these shotguns for keeping up with other companies that made lower priced box locks. These guns were about $100 cheaper than the side lock L.C. Smiths made by Hunter Arms Co.
The earlier ones up until around 1930 had a 3 screws on the receiver, the top screw held the sears in place. Later they made a 2 screw receiver that was in my opinion a much better design.
The early 20's and 16 gauges were short chambered and this changed in the 1930's to 2 3/4" chambers.
The Hunter Special has the rotary locking bolt like the side lock L.C. Smiths. They are all well built guns.
This is a Gladiator Field grade circa 1920 that was made for Sears Roebuck & Co. showing the 3 pin receiver.
This is a Ranger circa 1937 identical to The Fulton. This was also made for Sears Roebuck & Co.
This is a 2 pin receiver and shows how the parts were fitted.
The Hunter Arms Co. box locks were made for many companies and if you know what to look for they are easy to identify that they were made by Hunter Arms Co. Also the serial numbers for many of these box locks made for other companies are listed in the L.C. Smith Records.
I'm not sure about when the 20's had the 2 3/4" standard. But Hunter Arms didn't switch over to 2 3/4" for the 16ga until very late in the 30's. Maybe not until 1940. Someone may have a more exact date. But Brophy's LC Smith book (p. 228, Appendix C) shows a schematic for Elsie barrels, and the 16 is shown to have a short chamber. Date of that drawing is April 1938.
My Sears Ranger Model 104.3 (Hunter Arms Fulton) built 1937-39 has chambers that measure 2 3/4in. Nice gun with twin beads and some figure to the wood. Being a Sears Ranger, I got it for a song at an auction.
Jeff
I ?? your math, Sir. $100.00 cheaper? If you could buy a field grade Smith sidelock with std. DT and extractors in 1927 for $45.00 retail, does that mean you could buy the cheaper Fulton series boxlock, also with DT and EXT for a negative $52.00 figure? Doesn't add up-- Now same scenario, I'd look to see the Fulton retailing at arond $21.00, and the "fancier" fulton special for maybe $23.50- just a guess, I only own and collect graded Smith guns, both pre-1913 and pre-1936 mfg. mainly ejector equipped-- The Fultons were good guns, so were the Parker Trojans, and the Ithaca LeFever brand Nitro Specials- You pays your money and you takes your choice--
Thanks to all responders.
I looked at the gun I'm considering a couple times a few months ago. I'm hoping it's still there. It's a bit of a drive to get there. It's been lurking in the back of my mind ever since. I like SxS shotguns and have a thing for the 16 gauge.
I have been concerned about the chamber length issue as of late. Didn't think to check it out last time I was there. I read recently that the L.C. Smith guns were not marked for chamber length until late in production. Same for the Non L.C. Hunter's? Can they be safely lengthened if short? How about the chokes, not being an L.C. okay to open them up? Do they usually have enough metal to them to be able to open them up?
I will mostly use the gun for upland game hinting and an occasional round of skeet.
Thanks again for the help.
Check the chokes as they may have already been opened. For as much as you intend to shoot it just buy a couple flats of short RST shells and no worries. If you really want to shoot full power 2 3/4 in. shells have the wall thickness at the chamber, checked and maybe lengthen the forcing cones. Likely in it's past. it was fed long shells as that was all there was after the ammo companies stopped making short ones.
The $100 difference was a little high, but it was at least a 1/3 cheaper than the side lock.
Both 16 gauge Rangers I have from 1937 have 2 9/16" chambers. The one 20 gauge Fulton from 1919 has 2 1/2" chambers. Hunter Arms Co. changed the chamber length for 20 gauges in the early 1930's and the 16 gauge in the late 1930's early 1940's to 2 3/4". I have a 1939 Field Grade 16 ga., the first year for the optional Single Sighting rib that still has 2 9/16" chambers.
The bore sizes also changed in the 16's from .650 to .662 in the 1930's as well.
Thanks. What is the "go to" source for these "RST" brand shells? I seriously doubt any shop locally, from central to N.W. Connecticut, will have them on the shelf.
How late did they make the 2 screw Fulton. The one in my hand right now is 2 screw with 2 3/4" chambers.
There were two 2 screw variants; the late model had 2 screws in the floor plate. The progression may be seen here
http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/17126039and you can date the gun with the SN here
http://www.lcsmith.org/shotguns/manufacture.html
Thank you. I thought I had it zeroed to a 5th style 2 screw receiver and floorplate. But I see three screws in the floorplate. And when I use the serial number search at the L.C. Smith serial number link. It won't give me a date if I use the F prefix in my serial number and if I leave the F out, it comes back as built in 1936. Which, I would have thought too early from what I've gathered here about receiver screws and chamber lengths.
I guess I'll go back through and reread everything again.
Thanks to all who've tried to help thusfar.
Okay. I went back and reread second response twice, and the rest of them once and now the 1936 date seems to make more sense. I guess he chamber length can't really be used to date the gun.
My 2.75" A-Zoom snap caps drop right in.
The shop I bought her at did have a decent selection of the RST shells on the shelf. But with 2.75" chambers do I really need them?
Will a few rounds of Winchester Super-X #6 shot hunting loads hurt her? I do also have some Remington "Express Long Range" #6's at hand. If I dig around I'm sure I can come up with some other old ammo.
Any thoughts on care and feeding?
The 3X5 card technique works very well to measure the chamber
http://www.lcsmith.org/faq/chamlgth.html
In my recordings of serial numbers and the different characteristics of Hunter Arms box locks including ones made for other manufacturers, the latest serial number I have is F203868 and has a 2 screw receiver side and 2 screw floor plate. This is a 20 gauge made in 1941 and by now will have 2 3/4" chambers.
For your 16 gauge, if it is 1936 it would be early for 2 3/4" chambers. Also for what it is worth, my A Zoom 16 ga. snap caps (4)measure 2 1/4". I would recheck yours.
Had 5 of them....odd action but nicely made guns....sold 2 of them.... a 16ga 1920 made one marked Keystone...and a 16ga 1936 Fulton marked...
Still have.. 12ga Royal Arms marked from 1920...Fulton marked 16ga made 1936 from the John Houchins estate....12ga Gladiator Tournament from 1918....
Honestly never thought to measure the snap caps. Just assumed being a modern item, that they would be of modern dimensions.
Will do the index card method.
Brokennock--Modern unfired 2 3/4" shells don't measure 2 3/4" either. That's the length of the fired hull . . . although even when fired, they're almost always just a bit short of 2 3/4".
Re dating the gun based on chamber length: Back before 2 3/4" became the standard length for 12-16-20ga guns, American makers didn't mark chamber length. I can't recall ever having seen an
American double marked anything shorter than 2 3/4". A good rule of thumb is to suspect that chambers have been lengthened on an American gun that's not marked 2 3/4" but has chambers that measure 2 3/4". That was standard practice in the gunsmithing community, as American ammo makers dropped the shorter length shells. The only way to know for sure is to access factory records and get a letter on your gun including factory specs from whomever has access to the information.
There were different proof standards for 2 3/4" guns vs those with shorter chambers. I'm guessing those Remington Express 6's are 1 1/8 oz loads. They're almost certainly somewhat hotter than the loads for which the gun was proofed. But we're also talking guns that were built pretty stout, and it's not likely you're going to do much damage to it if you shoot a few of those, on occasion, when you're hunting. If you're shooting a lot, sticking to 1 oz loads is probably a better idea. That being said, my first classic double was a pre-WWII Sauer 16ga, on which I had the chambers lengthened (before I knew better!) And I shot a pile of pheasants with that gun, using those Express 1 1/8 oz loads. The gun survived, but I'd probably be a bit more cautious today.
A good rule of thumb is to suspect that chambers have been lengthened on an American gun that's not marked 2 3/4" but has chambers that measure 2 3/4".
There are Notable exceptions to this "Rule". L C Smith standardized on the 2 3/4" length at a very early date. At some point so did Lefever Arms Co. In their 1913 catalog is stated all 12 ga guns will be shipped with 2 3/4" chambers unless otherwise ordered.
All of my Large Cocking Hook 12 ga Lefevers have 2 3/4" chambers, I seriously doubt they have all been re-chambered.
Neither of these makers in this era marked their chamber length.
What Miller said
1906 2 5/8"
Buck Hamlin's 1923 Specialty 2 7/8"
The earliest known 'football' stamp is on a 10g No. 1 SN 212477 (June 27, 1910)
Gentlemen, I stand corrected. The OP was asking about a 16ga, and I should have limited my "general" rule to gauges smaller than 12. LC Smith certainly didn't standardize on 2 3/4" for the 20ga before the 1920's, and not for the 16ga until the late 30's. Any examples of those factory stamped with short chamber lengths?
Larry we have some members in the L.C. Smith organization that do have chamber lengths stamped into the barrels water table from the factory that were not common. As Brother Drew posted one 12 ga. that has 2 5/8" chambers. I know of one member that has an early pre-1913 16 gauge with 3" chambers stamped as so.
L.C. Smiths 10 gauges, 2 7/8" chambers, 12 gauge from the beginning, 2 3/4" and with the coming of the Longrange and Waterfowl guns, 3" chambers, but not all, 16 gauge, 2 9/16", 20 gauge 2 1/2" 28 gauge (1) 2 1/2", .410 beginning 2 1/2".
I don't know exactly when the .410 changed to 3", but the 20 gauge was in the early to mid thirties, 16 gauge was late 30's early 1940.
Any thing different than these dimensions were stamped on the barrels water table.
When both the 20 gauge and 16 gauge were first lengthened, the factory stamped Chambered 2 3/4" in a straight line on the water table. After a period of time I believe they left it off.
My thanks to everyone, I'm learning a lot. I tried the index card measurement. It doesn't stop. I tried feeling for a lip at the forward edge of the chamber with a thin sliver of wood and felt nothing. On visual inspection, it looks like there should be a lip there, I see a ring that looks different from the rest of the bright bore and chambers, but this area feels no different than the rest of the chamber.
Brokennock: get one of the stainless steel 6" pocket rulers that are available at most any hardware store. Remove the barrels from the gun and point them toward a good light while sliding the ruler along the chamber wall and observing when the end reaches the ring that you can see. That should give you the chamber length. Anther way is to use a set of old fashioned spring leg inside calipers. Adjust the calipers until you can just feel them slide along the inside of the chamber. When the tips reach the beginning of the forcing cone, you wil feel the abrupt change of angle and can make a pencil mark on the caliper leg to measure from the tip. Sometimes you can make more accurate measurements with the above two methods than you can with plug gauges. The accuracy of a plug gauge depends on its being made exactly to spec, and the chamber being bored exactly to spec, but if the chamber is undersize only 0.001", because of the taper, the plug gauge will read 1/4" short.
Great advice there from Tom. The 6" scale has been my go to method for some time now. As a machinist with a home lathe I turned me a set of chamber gauges. I made them to minimum chamber dia according to SAAMI specs. Very quickly I found that most "Old" chambers were not cut to current SAAMI specs. 001" - 002" undersize makes absolutely no difference in the performance on a shotgun chamber, but it sure messes up the reading on a chamber gage.
Another "home-made" trick- get two fired empty cases- RST paper are my choice, as paper hulls were the rule back when you Smith was built- Get one as 2&1/2", and one as 2&3/4"-- chamber them, but at one at a time, close the gun just as if you were going to shoot it, but then open the breech- see which of the two hulls the extractor or ejector clears easiest-- and remember, a modern 2&3/4" shotgun shells measures 2&3/4" after it has been fired.
My shooting pal is returning my copy of the Bible for L.C. Smith collectors, the Houchins' book- But my gals are getting me the new Smith tome on production and serial numbers, written by the "Numero Uno" L.C. Smithian extant, at least as far as research and accurate data are concerned. I shall devour it and memorize all salient details therein--
