Hello there lads, merry Christmas to ye one n all.
I really love this place when everyone is behaving,lol.
I am from across the pond..but live in New Hampshire & to me Antique means 100 years old...I think thats a general rule over here too?
At what time back from 2017 do you consider guns to be Vintage.
I guess Wine freaks call a Vintage when a wine is made from an exceptionally fine year for grapes.
So is "Between the wars" considered the vintage period, as such fine guns were made?
Or do Gun collectors use a cut off period like say 1960
I have one Greener hammergun from 1901, so that's a real antique..also a nice Belgian SLE from 1926...that would count as vintage I'd guess
Just curious about the vintage age thing..I guess Im talking English/European Guns.
Also, when Generations are mentioned, what time spans come to mind?
I've googled this an there doesn't seem to a definite answer..30 -50 years?
MERRY CHRISTMAS to all of you blokes..ilove ye all
cheers
franc

In the general antiquing and collectibles world, doesnt vintage mean 25 years or older?

BDud..from growing up in an Antique shop family from England, That seems a bit "Light"...as that would be around 1990, that to me is too modern
just my thoughts...but do you agree an "Antique" has to 100 years old?
cheers
Franc

i think for guns - the rules are well defined and the "antique" line does not move

but then now-a-days - I see some of my old toys in antique shops

so - what do i know

My understanding of American 'antique' is 100 years. 'Vintage' I guess would be less than 100 years and up to 1940 or WW-2 (to me at least). Most of the American Classic sxs's (Parker, Elsie, Ithaca, Fox, Lefever, Baker, Syracuse) had played out by the end of the war. That's just my thinking...Geo

In America, antiques are generally considered to be at least 50 years old. "Art Deco" items from the twenties and thirties were being considered antiques in the eighties, as well as other Depression Era articles. "Vintage", specifically for Doubles, is (my opinion) a little more involved, and has to do with design and function as well as age. I'd peg it as 100 years or so old, but in reality I'd tie the difference to pre modern powder guns. It then becomes mainly a design issue, with Vintage doubles being those designed for the Black Powder Era. WWI being a convenient breaking point.

The BATF: For the purposes of the National Firearms Act, the term “Antique Firearms” means any firearm not intended or redesigned for using rim fire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898 (including any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898) and also any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

Strange, but I seem to have a problem with any definition of either antique or vintage which is younger than I am...Geo

I don't even like the BATF&E definition or curio or relic!

Well, if we start with Franc's wine analogy, "vintage" is simply the year it was produced, including possibly 2016. It has nothing to do with "old" or "good".

In other areas, vintage refers to an broader but still identifiable time period, as in "Depression vintage" or "Fifties vintage".


While "vintage" denotes a time period, it could be any time period, rather than connoting a specific minimum number of years old.

One dictionary definition is this:

vintage-denoting something of high quality, especially something from the past or characteristic of the best period of a person's work.

I think "vintage", as applied to guns, is an overused, and often misused, word, according to the above definition.

SRH

CBack...You're right,
I guess the wine analogy was off, just cause it's old doesn't make it Vintage.
I always wondered when I hear..."Old Alf Garnets" family have been Gunsmiths here for 6 generations"....how long is that ?
You brits remember alf garnet..till death us do part in the late 60's?....wouldn't work today ...me n me dad used to love that one..Reg Varny in On the Buses anyone?


franc

As far as firearms go this is my understanding:

If it was made prior to 1899 it's generally considered an antique. However cartridge firearms for which ammunition is readily available are NOT considered antique.

If it's 50 years old it's C&R eligible and this advances every year. C&R firearms can be freely traded between licensees.** The BATF maintains a list of exceptions to this regulation which can be viewed online. Example: Although Thompson submachine guns by age are considered C&Rs they are still regulated as NFA firearms.

If it is newer than 50 years it's a modern firearm and all the FFL government State and local regulations apply.

** Keep in mind that some State's and municipalities have far more stringent regulations then stated above.

Antiques in general: My experience is that to truly be considered Antique an item must be at least 100 years old. The term "Antique" IMO is one of the most misused in collecting circles.

Classic is another term often misused. It was originally applied to automobile collecting and associated with limited production and expensive autos made prior to WW II. Now it's used in many other ways such as "This 1963 Corvette split window is a true classic".
Jim

NOTE: THE ABOVE STATEMENTS ARE GENERAL IN NATURE AND SHOULD ONLY BE VIEWED IN THAT PERSPECTIVE:

Here is what the dictionary states regarding "Vintage" of high quality and lasting value, or showing the best and most typical characteristics of a particular type of thing, especially from the past: a vintage plane. a vintage comic book.

Is a Winchester model 1873 made up through 1898 & chambered for the .44-40 an Antique by the BATF definition or not. My understanding is that it is so classified even though it fires a center fire cartridge which is still readily available. If it were made in 1899 or later it would not be considered an antique nor would any replica of it. On the other hand a replica of the .44 rimfire Henry would be because .44 Henry rimfire ammunition is not readily available.

This is one of the real gray areas in the mishmash of regulations regarding the status of certain guns. I've seen them handled multiple ways but to my knowledge no one has ever been charged with a violation for selling a pre 1899 gun as an antique regardless of what cartridge it was chambered for.
Jim

As far as vintage and antique shotguns......I know 'em when I see 'em.

You guy are not reading the laws right. Under the Gun Control Act of i968, any fire arm made before 1899 is an antique,regardless of what ammunition it is chambered for. Replicas made after 1898 and chambered for obsolete rounds such as .44 Henry rimfire or .52 Spencer rimfire are also not considered to be firearms under the 1968 Act. Muzzle loaders, regardless of when made and regardless of the ignition type are not considered firearms. The National Firearms Act of 1934 is the controlling law for full automatic weapons, short barrel rifles and short barrel shotguns, not the GCA'68. Thus a Colt M1895 machine gun falls under the requirements of the NFA of '34, and cannot be owned or traded without paying the transfer tax, but a Gatling gun operated by a crank falls under the GCA '68 and can be freely owned even though it might fire more rounds per minute than the Colt. The above statements apply only to Federal law, and some states may have laws that differ.

Can you cite an ATF ruling or regulation that says an antique isn't an antique if it take readily available ammo?

Any firearm manufactured before 1899 is considered an Antique Firearm under the Gun Control Act of 1968 by the ATF independent of ammunition availability. For example:

The ATF's Firearms Technology Branch (FTB) has clearly stated in writing to me that all Chilean M95 Mausers made by Ludwig Lowe, Berlin are considered Antiques because Ludwig Lowe stopped rifle production when it was absorbed by other manufacturers in 1896, i.e. before 1899.

Please note that Chilean M95 Mausers are chambered for the readily available 7x57 cartridge.

Firearms Verification

National Firearms Act Definitions

Antique Firearm

26 U.S.C. § 5845(G)

For the purposes of the National Firearms Act, the term “Antique Firearms” means any firearm not intended or redesigned for using rim fire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898 (including any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898) and also any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

I think perhaps you're confusing the National Firearms Act with the Gun Control Act. The NFA deals with evil guns like machine guns, short-barrel rifles, short-barrel shotguns, AOWs, silencers, etc. Ordinary rifles and shotguns are not under the purview of the NFA.

Here is what the GCA (Gun Control Act) says about antiques:



Please note that the ammunition stuff only applies to paragraph B, which addresses REPLICAS. So, a gun manufactured after 1898 could be considered an antique if it is a replica of something made prior to 1898 so long as it uses obsolete ammo. None of that changes the fact that paragraph A states that ANY firearm made prior to 1899 is an antique. The modern ammo language of paragraph B does not apply to paragraph A.

Refer to The relevant section defining an antique firearm from the Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA), 18 U.S.C. Section 921(a)(16), as posted by bladeswitcher, not the National Firearms Act Section which apparently uses a different definition for different purposes.

This is the way I have always understood it also, ANY gun made prior to 1899 is an Antique.

OP was about our American connotation of the terms Antique and Vintage in the collecting area. We've gotten off into legal stuff instead...Geo

Well, "antique" has a legal definition. "Vintage" does not. It's whatever anybody thinks it is. For a young guy just discovering double shotguns, a Spanish gun made in the 1970s might seem vintage. That guy's grandfather would think that was a new gun.

FWIW, World War II seems like a reasonable cut-off for vintage vs. modern . . . but that's just me.

Several years ago, my local FFL and I made a call to the BATF Field Office for clarification on Antique status. We were told exactly what Tom Martin, 2piper, vangulil, and bladeswitcher said... if the gun was made prior to 1899, it is an Antique, period, and not considered a firearm for purposes of FFL Transfer. We were told that it is actually wrong to even enter such Antiques in the FFL's Bound Ledger Book since that is intended for modern firearms only.

The gun in question at the time was a Antique 12 gauge double that I bought on Gunbroker, and the seller insisted that it had to be transferred through an FFL even though it was easily proven to be pre-1899. And we all know that 12 gauge ammo is readily available. The seller still insisted on sending it to an FFL, so my FFL guy took delivery of the shotgun and simply handed it to me when it arrived at his shop when he saw that it was Antique. Actually, the Antique status for BATF purposes applies only to when the action or receiver was built. If it can be proven that the action was built prior to 1899, and the gun was not assembled and sold until years later, after 1899, it is still an Antique gun.

It's a little confusing. But what really confuses me is why Franc Otte types with a British accent when he lives in the U.S., but guys like Damascus or gunman who actually live in Great Britain do not. Blimey! I guess it's meant to impress us Yankee blokes on this side of the pond, eh wot? Weird.

I have generally adhered to the "antique" designation as detailed above without problems.

However: Perhaps one of you would care to elaborate on 26 U.S.C. § 5845(G)?
Jim

I was looking for your personal definitions of Vintage as far as guns go.I think the Vintage thing should slide up as the years go by..in 2086 ( pick your number), guns made today would be vintage,as I see it.
I wish the Antique rule slid up with the years.
Thanks for your replies
cheers
Franc
Hope you all get an old long box under the tree

Hello Keith, I'm not quite sure what you mean by me typing in English accent.It sure isn't to impress anyone, I can tell you that much..I looked at my three posts & found a couple of Cheers, which I say all the time,a couple of Ye's, which I picked up when living in Ireland, a Bloke or two,another common word I can't seem to let go of...."Hello Lads" is to me,a very friendly way of adressing a bunch of mates....If it seems wierd to you so be it
Sorry if it offends you..but I was born n raised in England, some things stay with you when you move
Merry Christmas mate
cheers
franc

No problem Franc. You are perfectly understood. If some of us hill folk started typing the way we often speak it might be all but unintelligible! Happy Christmas to you and yours!

bladeswitcher:
"Please note that the ammunition stuff only applies to paragraph B, which addresses REPLICAS. So, a gun manufactured after 1898 could be considered an antique if it is a replica of something made prior to 1898 so long as it uses obsolete ammo. None of that changes the fact that paragraph A states that ANY firearm made prior to 1899 is an antique. The modern ammo language of paragraph B does not apply to paragraph A."


Thanks for the clarification.
Jim

I understood that was what you were inquiring about. I, however, don't agree that everything that is not modern is vintage, if I understood you correctly. If we go by the definition of the word, vintage would carry with it the implication that, in addition to old, it was the best of a person or company's work. If we simply use "vintage" in place of "old" have we not cheapened the meaning of it, by definition?

Interesting discussion, SRH

Vin + Age;
Vin = Wine, Age of course is how old. That's Vintage. It can be this years Vintage or it could be a century old Vintage or any other year.

As relates to shotguns Vintage is most often MIS-used in an effort to increase prices.

Age for vintage is relevant only when the Vintage is specified as in;

A Committee of Safety Musket is of the Revolutionary War Vintage while an M-16 is of the Vietnam Vintage.

Victorian vintage,Edwardian vintage,pre WWI vintage,between the wars vintage.
When someone says the gun is vintage we should be quick to ask which vintage that is.

Probably the best answer. I was thinking along the same lines myself, as this is often done with regular antiques.