I have an English gun that is no prize but the barrels are good and the gun is too nice to sell for parts or to throw away. I bought it as a wall hanger but the barrels measure .0295 by using the mic on the out side and using a barrel bore measure on inside, Double checking with a barrel wall measure I got .030. The gun is off face I figure about .007. My question how do I fix that. Some say knock out the pin and rotate it. I've never done that. Can the pin be knocked out from either side and what sort of tool do I use? Others say teg weld the hook and grind it to size. How much does a teg weld cost and what do I look for so that the barrel solder is not melted.
I know I ought get a pro but it is rather a basic gun that really doesn't justify a big out lay of money and besides I would kind of like to do this myself.
Pooch, if you really want to do a cheap fix, you can cut a piece of shim stock to fit the lump and take up the looseness. Whenever I've done that, I've just used friction to keep it in place. I think some guys here, however, may suggest using some sort of glue.
I started out that way but the shim came off. I have this iron epoxy still on the hook and the gun fits up tight, but I figure that will probably shoot off.
I have a local machine shop tig weld the hook. I have done a number of them. I have learned to have him put the weld past the sides of the hook otherwise as you take it down the sides will have a bevel. Dr Drew has some pictures of one I did. It takes about two hours to fit. I use a hurricane oil lamp without the glass hood and round files.Mostly you need patience and take your time.
He has not overheated any yet. There is a lot of metal there and not a very big weld.
Pooch, If you can find a micro welder take the barrels and receiver to him and ask him to add just enough material to the hook so that the gun just won't close. It's then an easy matter to smoke the hook to put the barrels back on face. Not exactly the "right" way but it's a class A band-aid.
I ask these questions because if it has a straight pin it can be easier to replace the pin with a larger one. Calculate what the new diam needs to be from the shim size, ream the hole, make & fit new pin. If it is a taper, then weld the hook. O.M
The gun is an Army&Navy. It's an old gun because it still has the words Deely Patent on the water table and the opening lever. It looks like a William Evens box lock with the doll's head. It has safety sears. It has London proof marks, but I'm pretty sure it was made for the London trade by Webbley in Birmingham.
It is sleek and light, kinda pretty as the engraving is still good, but it's not collectors gun just one that should make a fun shooter.
I wouldnt consider any of the above mentioned options as an amateur repair with the exception of installing a piece of shim stock to fit the hook. Tig welding isnt something you just take up over a weekend. You might be surprised at how inexpensively you could have this done by a pro gunsmith. I think the last one I had done was around $150-200. From your description of the gun it sounds like this is the only real mechanical issue. I say invest the money and shoot the gun, rather than risk irreparable damage or hanging it on the wall.
PM me if you want the name of the guy that did my last one
I was thinking about having the Tig done by a welder or machine shop and do the filing myself. I have shaped things with a file and I know something of metal work as I worked in a machine shop running an overhead mill as a youngster in high school
If you decide to do this yourself, remember to use a welder who is very proficient in precision welding. Years ago, I decided to ask a co-worker who was certified to weld on nuclear reactors to TIG weld a hammer for me, figuring he had to be very good. He wasn't, and I ended up re-doing it myself. And filing/stoning the welded hook is also a job requiring careful work and precision. You want to make your cuts as perfectly square as possible to perfectly mate up with the pin which is why builder recommended using an oil lamp to smoke fit the hook. A close fit that is only bearing on a couple points is going to get loose again rather quickly. You may do very well on your first try, but I myself would be reluctant to practice on anything but a low quality junker. Too many good guns get screwed up by well meaning people who bite off more than they are prepared to chew.
stan: i certainly would not! but, i am not so sure about you!
as i recall, you are the one who drags a fine browning bss thru the georgia swamps and mud...i too spent some time in a georgia swamp along the altamaha...but, with my trusty stevens 94...
Army and Navy guns come in all Original Quality grades from best work to colonial/farmer grade. The economics of repair/restoration depend heavily on the amount/cost of work and the likely before and after value of the gun. A colonial/farmer grade gun of any brand is not going to warrant much repair cost.
I think at one time mine was a pretty nice box lock. But it has seen some hard times. I bought it as a wall hanger and got it cheap. It is a better gun then I expected it to be. If things work out the way I'm forecasting I will have a decent English shooter for about $250. That is about the cost of a used Mossberg.
Here is a MidwayUSA video showing how to shim the hook to put a double back on face. (About middle of the video.) I've used my own version of this process a few times. Pretty easy and nearly no cost involved.
Posted By: AnonymousRe: Off Face - 12/15/1612:13 PM
Personally I wouldn't weld a lump! This is my late father's Parker which was terribly loose and off-face. Years ago my father took it to 'Hard Chrome Services' & told them how many thou of chrome he wanted put into the hook & on the sides of the lump, he allowed excess so as he could then fit it using oil-stones and bearing blue. The platers protected the rest of the metal and hard chrome was only added where dad specified, the pen indicates where the chrome starts. This photo doesn't do the finished job justice as the inside of the hook and the chromed sides of the lump are mirror finish, what appear to be imperfections on the chrome surfaces are grease that I hadn't removed. The chrome used was the type used on machine shafts etc., not what you'd find on an old car bumper. Cheers
like brain surgery, shotgun rejoining should not be attempted by untrained, inexperienced amatuers...here is another interesting midway video on the subject...
Yep you guys have got me thinking. This old gun is actually pretty nice. The barrels have plenty of wall thickness. They are much better then I expected. I've measured them over and over again using both outside mics, a barrel bore gage a barrel wall thickness gage which I finally figured out how to use from reading here. all the measurements agree that the thinnest wall thickness is .0295. The engraving is still sharp, the screws haven't been buggered, it is very gracefully shaped and the interior of the action is really quite beautifully made. It's not a collectors gun as the checkering is about gone, the trigger guard engraving is really thin and it could use a new stock. I'm into it cheap, but looking at it I have come to believe it is too nice for an amateur like myself to bugger up. I think I will do a bit of practicing on old no value guns to see if I have any talent for this sort of thing and will probably end up going to a gunsmith.I really appreciate what I am learning from you guys. Thanks
like brain surgery, shotgun rejoining should not be attempted by untrained, inexperienced amatuers...here is another interesting midway video on the subject...
on a gun such as this, i also advise a steel shim. i have soft soldered them on, using the lowest temp solder i had. but on the last one i used loc-tite 380 Black Max. it needs to be used in cases where the part is in compression, as is on a hook and pin situation.
get the best fitting shim you can, and then assert pressure to make the shim closely fit the hook. i have used dowels or steel rods roughly the size of the pin.
the Black Max REALLY (!!!) bonds metal when used properly. in my experience it is at least equal to, and i think a tad more, strong than Hi-Force 44 solder.
like brain surgery, shotgun rejoining should not be attempted by untrained, inexperienced amatuers...here is another interesting midway video on the subject...
like brain surgery, shotgun rejoining should not be attempted by untrained, inexperienced amatuers...here is another interesting midway video on the subject...
I used the shim steel approach to tighten up a slightly off face gun with good results as well. I suspect it's fine for an occasional shooter. I bought a lifetime supply off eBay for about $20.
Have someone decent spray weld the hook. Cole Haugh in Indiana does this at relatively low cost...he has done 2-3 guns for me.
You can use shim stock and stick it to the hook with some of the Loctite compounds used for bearing surfaces. I think Loctite 680 is one of these. Check for the latest Loctite recommendations. It works, I have done this on two guns. These were .001 or .002 shims. .002 is a lot of play, I would be surprised if you actually have .007!
Have someone decent spray weld the hook. Cole Haugh in Indiana does this at relatively low cost...he has done 2-3 guns for me.
You can use shim stock and stick it to the hook with some of the Loctite compounds used for bearing surfaces. I think Loctite 680 is one of these. Check for the latest Loctite recommendations. It works, I have done this on two guns. These were .001 or .002 shims. .002 is a lot of play, I would be surprised if you actually have .007!
Have someone decent spray weld the hook. Cole Haugh in Indiana does this at relatively low cost...he has done 2-3 guns for me.
You can use shim stock and stick it to the hook with some of the Loctite compounds used for bearing surfaces. I think Loctite 680 is one of these. Check for the latest Loctite recommendations. It works, I have done this on two guns. These were .001 or .002 shims. .002 is a lot of play, I would be surprised if you actually have .007!
Yeah, I need to re mic this to get the right shim stock. I think there are certain parts of my brain that I left on the highway 11 months ago and parts of my memory are not all that great.
"Collector Value" has dubious meaning on English guns like this. Don't get me wrong, I love English guns. But they weren't made with the same published specs like American guns. I don't think anyone would open the chokes or put a pad on a documented Sousa Special because of the financial hit they would take.
On an English gun it's another matter. The English do what they need to to keep a gun shooting well for it's owner, including opening chokes, refinishing, etc. On your A&N I doubt there's any way to determine how it left the factory so trying to keep it original is not a concern.
And finally getting around to the point, if the hinge pin is the only mechanical problem spend the $200 to have it replaced correctly. SKB is doing one for me on a Francotte, not prohibitively expensive.
On your A&N I doubt there's any way to determine how it left the factory so trying to keep it original is not a concern.
Trying my best to recall, and I expect someone here knows: The A&N records are held by the University of Glasgow. Darned if I recall whether the order book included information on original choking. But those records do provide good information about the A&N guns.
