I am in the process of setting up a dedicated grouse gun. I recently bought a 12 ga. Ugartecha choked MOD/FULL. I am considering opening it up to Cyl (.000) and Skeet (.005). I hunted with a couple hardcore grouse hunters last fall and both had their o/u's choked this way. Common sense tells me Skeet and Imp. Cyl. would do less damage to the gun's worth. I don't consider an Uglie to be a reasonable candidate for tubing, would double the cost and not improve resale value much. Opinions?

Really?
JR

It's your gun do as you wish. You are not dealing with a classic gun or one which is rare. You have a good shooter, that should be altered to make it fit your needs. I might go cyl. and .010 but .005/7 would be fine as well.

The present chokes are not useful for what you wish to do with the gun. So change them. Mike Orlen is reasonable and fast...Geo

I have a 20 ga that has Briley chokes. The right barrel choke for grouse is somewhere between .000 and .003. I use a .009 in the left barrel.

I think it also depends where and when you hunt and if you use a pointing dog that works well.

I have hunted in Minnesota several times where many shots were over 25 yards. The birds get hunted hard in parts of that state.

And he offers a 10% discount on work, not shipping, if you are registered on shotgunworld.com where he is a moderator in the gunsmith section.

I do use a pointing dog, and will use this gun for blue grouse in Colorado and ruffs in Wisconsin primarily. I've got several wonderful guns that are tubed or tightly choked for prairie birds. The Ugartecha is a bird specific gun that I hope will fit the forest niche. I'm already an advocate of open chokes, my "go-to" gun has always been a SKB o/u that I tubed Skt1 and Imp cyl. I rarely change the chokes.

Steve

I use the chokes that my guns come with at IC/MOD. They measure .008/.018 and have worked well for me. Being older and slower, they suit my style. I've hunted Woodcock for years and they have worked well also. With the leaves down now here in Michigan, I've had a banner week.
If I were to go from a MOD/Full I'd chose Skeet/ Mod. I read somewhere that a two choke difference in a gun is very usefull.
Karl

Cobbhead, I completely see and agree with your point about opening the chokes on a gun too much that it kills the resale. I've found that I either fall in love with a particular gun and keep it for a loooong time, OR use it for a year and then it gets moved along. Opening to CYL/SKT does kill the secondary market when you go to move it. I spoke with my local dealer on the same issue a while ago and he agreed- IC/MOD is the classic combo that will always sell. Less than than on a choke combo and you are pigeon-holeing a gun into a certain hunting style. Only close bird hunters will want CYL/SKT gun.

The solution I've found is the RST Spreader Loads. They do make a huge diff in the guns I've been shooting, just be sure to pattern them and see how they do. Also PolyWad makes spreaders too.

.02cents.

From patterning board experience in setting up a dedicated grouse gun I found this out. At 15 yds or less it doesn't matter much, any choke is too tight. from 20 to 30 yards you will see a big difference in the spread of the patterns . Spreaders won't show a dramatic difference below 15 yds in a skeet/cylinder choke. IC/Mod works well with spreader loads in the open barrel to 25yds. I ended up at cyl/M and shoot 7/8 Oz 7.5's, 20 Ga. no spreaders, No complaints. As Karl pointed out after the leaves are gone you are going to be able to take some longer shots. Later season birds rarely hold and will flush "out there" too. I love my pointer dogs but have seen a very few that could work a spooky grouse and point them after the young'ns are gone.

Chief

I'd go with cyl or skeet in and mod.
Remember, you need to think of late season grouse when the birds are more jumpy and don't hold so well for the pups.

If you go skeet in the open barrel you will not reduce the value of the gun as much as cylinder, possibly not at all since many use skeet choke in the right barrel at sporting clays.

I hunt the UP and WI in October, when the woodcock are still around. I bought my Parker Repro 28ga mostly because of the chokes: Q1 & 2. So, a little choke and a little more. Works very well . . . also on the early release quail hunts I do. 12ga . . . I would not be afraid to go cyl in the R barrel if I still lived in WI. Cyl will kill a grouse quite a ways out. Late season, simply use 1 1/8 oz trap loads of 7 1/2. If you have some concern about selling it in CO, the open R barrel might hurt you some. But I think it's the best all-around choke for ruffs and woodcock in a 12ga. Just tinker with your ammo selection as the leaves come off.

If you move forward with opening the chokes I can recommend Kirk Merrington for the job/work.

I can totally understand your point of view and recognize that it makes perfect sense. This is especially true with the shot cups of the last couple decades. I have however one point that I've learned from experience... a little choke such as .002" constriction can make the difference on a potential sale should you ever decide to replace it. I've had many English boxlock's that withered on the vine at cylinder while others with just 1 or 2 thousandth's were viewed as a big plus (sometimes common-sense is overruled!). Since it's yours then go at it as you wish but at least recognize the downstream impact. Good shooting....

Skeet & Imp. Cyl. Why bother with two barrel gun? Common sense tells me you need old Ithaca 37 with 26" barrel and Imp. Cyl barrel. Reason I say old is because old ones with fixed choke had light contour barrels making them wonderful upland pump. Naturally Model 12 Featherweight 12ga with 26" barrel would be just as good or better. The 26" barrel came with 1/4 choke standard. Does this help with your dilemma?

He already has the 2-barrel gun. Some folks don't like the pumping part. I recently wrote a chapter on guns for a new grouse book. ("A Passion for Grouse"). Looking at statistics from the Loyal Order of Dedicated Grouse Hunters (LODGH) concerning preference by gun type, early 1980's vs early 20-teens, pumps have dropped off significantly in popularity. As you point out, the problem isn't necessarily weight. The Ithaca English Ultra 37 weighed something under 5#, I believe . . . for those who can shoot a gun that light. But pumps just aren't as popular as they used to be.

Depending on hunting type I would expect semi-autos and over/under shotguns to be most popular. What I was trying to get at is having nearly identical or identical choke in both barrel of double gun is kind of pointless just like having single trigger instead of two. He would be very well served with Beretta 3xx series, Benelli or Franchi semi-auto.

Here is what I did when my Parker was choked tight full and tight mod.
I loaded the old way using card and fiber wads and as able to get a mod and Imp cyl.
I then made a spreader using 2 over shot cards each cut almost in half and inserted into each other to form an X. After loading the shot between the X petals, my patterns indicated Imp Cyl and a very light Imp Cyl.

I have an Uggy that was Mod/Full when I bought it. It actually threw patterns closer to full and full.
I opened it to CylMod, but the 'smith actually went to Cyl/Ic. I was a little ticked off, but, have used it for pheasants, grouse, sporting clays, skeet, and a few pokes at my local duck tower, and a not bad round of trap a few weeks ago.. It works fine the way it is.
I wouldn't worry much about value on an Uggy, especially a 12 gauge Uggy. Most people I know would spend the money to have the chokes opened anyway, assuming Mod/Full.
The guys with tubes seem to put a couple in, and then forget they are there. Nice to be able to change, but, few guys actually do.

Good Luck.

Best,
Ted

There you go again, projecting your narrow experience onto all of shotgunning. When will you get specific and quit with the blanket statements? Never? Maybe in your world nobody changes choke tubes, but in mine, they're changed according to need. I shoot about 20-25 flats a year with guys who all shoot guns with choke tubes, even though 90% of mine do not have them. How about you? Have you polled shotgunners all over the world to know how many of them change choke tubes? If not, how can you say ...... "few guys actually do"?

SRH

I don't mess about with changing chokes now that I have them the way that I want.
Just my opinion on what suits my kind of hunting.
Whatever the gun I like to have one full choke barrel at least.
It suits my shooting which is pest birds on crops & a lot of fur. I want that full concentrated heavy shot BB - 00 SG pattern whack on fur.
I have read & agree with that once you have learned to shoot full choke well, there is no going back to more open.
I have two Live pigeon SxS's, one is 100 & other is 90 years old. Both are choked fairly tight Between .030 - .040. I think that they knew what they were doing, boring the gun that way.
They wanted to ensure a close kill on a fast rising target & had a lot of money riding on the outcome.
Some of those birds would be a bit shot heavy to eat though.
I have shot rabbits with 7 1/2 shot & full choke & separating the meat from the shot is like picking fly specks out of pepper.
O.M

Stan,
I suppose there are guys that change chokes every day, and some guys who change chokes for every shot.

I don't shoot with them though. Might be a blanket statement, but, more than one guy here has noticed that once you get them where you want them, they seem to stay put. I think most guys hanging around my club get to a point where they can shoot their gun competently with the chokes they come to decide on leaving in, and let it go at that. They change guns before changing chokes. If tubes were such a valuable and needed option, then why do they lower the price on the typical old double they are installed on?

How 'bout "Few guys at my club, who shoot on one of the leagues I participate in for the last 25 years, shooting about the same quantity of flats in a year, as one Stan Hillis, from Georgia, mess with their chokes tubes at the club. And, a guy who goes by the name Moses on doublegunshop doesn't mess with them much, either".

That better?

Best,
Ted

Typical English or European pigeon gun sometimes better known as Taubenflinte is better than Winchester 21. With right kind of ammo one can take them Wildfowling on the marsh. That is good because there will be something worth taking feathers off and stuffing freezer full with what is left after those feathers are removed.

On the changing chokes deal . . . I find myself in between Stan and Ted. (Which means I'm likely to get crushed from both sides!) Several years back, I had Briley put Thin-Walls in a 16ga Poli. I shot 000/005 for grouse and woodcock; 005/015 for prairie grouse and pheasants. Since I typically start the season on the prairie, then hit the woods for grouse and woodcock, and then hunt pheasants . . . I changed twice, for hunting purposes. Had I gone to TX to hunt quail after the pheasant season, I likely would have changed back to the more open chokes.

Yeah, that's better. But, it's a long ways from "few guys actually do". Why didn't you say "few guys I shoot with"? Never mind, I know why.

SRH

You don't understand either, Larry. I don't change choke tubes, I shoot with guys who do. I shoot a fixed choke MX8 at clays, 98% of the time. I'm not championing changing choke tubes, I'm challenging Ted's statement that nobody changes choke tubes. Ted just thinks he can make blanket statements and everybody will go along with him. Either that or, he doesn't care how wrong he is.

SRH

Stan,
In what school in Georgia does "few" = "nobody"?

Did you go to that school?

You do realize you have actually made a blanket statement, and I did not, right?

Best,
Ted

Ted, in what school, in wherever North you live, does "few" equal those that I shoot with? You first, since you made the initial claim.

SRH

None of our schools, Stan. You already pointed out you don't change choke tubes, so, that is at least one.

1 does equal few, Stan.

You done now?

Best,
Ted

YOU are the one that originally said that "few guys actually do" (change choke tubes). Are you saying that you were referring to me when you made that statement, Ted?

And, I'll let you know when I'm done, like I did in the other thread.

SRH

Stan,
No. I have met a total of one guy with a choke tube holster and the speed wrench to change choke tubes while he was shooting. It never used to be this way, but, my club is actully packed with high school kids who shoot on their trap and skeet leagues, and observing them, and the rest of us oldsters, "few" actually mess with the tubes in their guns.
I never said "nobody" Stan, you did.
Have a drink Stan. Have a cigar in the gunroom, if that is what you do. Do what makes Stan happy on a Saturday night. If you are surrounded by guys who change their chokes tubes persistantly, be thankful for the company on the range, and enjoy your shooting.
And, have a blessed holiday season, Stan.

Best,
Ted

I'll have a cigar next week, Ted. I limit myself to one a week, after smoking 5-6 a day for many years. My life insurance company (Prudential) has a rate for "occasional cigar smokers". I fit into that group, according to their standards. Got a Cohiba I've been saving back in the humidor, maybe it'll be next.

All my best, SRH

Phew ! !
O.M

What are you going to do Cobb ?
O.M

Conclusion re nobody/few, etc: Blanket statements using words like "nobody" don't work well, because there's almost always SOMEBODY who does whatever. Nobody I know/few people I know . . . those will usually keep one on the safe side. But when it comes to shooting, chokes, etc, it's worth recognizing that there's a different world inhabited by those who shoot clay targets competitively (especially sporting clays, where--unlike skeet or 16 yard trap--you can have shots at widely varying distances) and those who are more into hunting and "recreational" clay shooting.

I used to work one leg of the Wisconsin Ironman sporting clays shoot as a puller or scorer. 400 targets over 2 days, 100 each at 4 different clubs. I saw more guys changing chokes in that one event than I did the entire remainder of the year. Matter of fact, hunting and mainly shooting skeet, and sporting clays mostly at sxs shoots or with guys who shoot sxs, I might have gone an entire year without seeing anyone change chokes.

All my shooting buddies change chokes to fit what they perceive as the ideal situation, and most shoot O/Us so that they can have an open choke for a close target and a tighter one for further away birds. And, as Larry said, sporting clay competitors are the ones who do so the most. I have found that, even though most of the top shooters in the genre can change chokes, there are some at the pinnacle of the game who rarely do. I used to, but found it distracting (which probably says something about my limited mental capacity) and have done the best shooting of my life since I began shooting a fixed choke Perazzi with two .020" chokes. I had them opened to that from F & F.

That is not an indictment of choke changing in general, it's just not conducive to my best shooting at this time.

SRH

Thanks for the input and sorry to start a s**t storm over "some" and "many". An informal sporting clays shooter, my limited experience is some change tubes on virtually every station and many never change from one end of the course to the other. I've decided to go with .005 and .010, boring but open enough for grouse hunting in heavy cover yet enough choke for open shots over a pointing dog. I may have mentioned I'm an avid handloader, if the patterning board disappoints me I can always make up some spreader loads. And to those that suggested a more British choking choice, I did consider wide open and full. I've got a couple friends that are deadly with this set up in the open country but I do have other guns for that occasion. Remember, my goal was a dedicated forest grouse gun.

Cool. Does your Uggy look like this?



Cyl and IC gun, opened from Mod and Full. It duplicates the choke in another gun I own, but, this one has 28" tubes.

It has done anything I needed it to do. I don't take 40-50 yard shots with it, however. You could do far worse than an Uggy with the chokes opened for forrest grouse.

Best,
Ted

I shoot in the open country of the west with a pointer. While I rarely shoot a 12ga, I would definitely feel ideally equipped with a cylinder bore first barrel. The second barrel choke choice seems to bring into consideration the shooter's characteristics. I like something about modified or less. But I've had great luck with a .000/.005 combination. Cylinder will reach out pretty far, IMO.

I took the leap of faith this year and hunted pheasants with a prewar Merkel 200E 12 gauge choked Cyl & IC. I must not be as good as I thought I was because my Drahts brought back a higher percentage of dead birds from the first shot of that Cyl barrel this year then the past few years. I must have been fringing close birds with a tighter choke. I worked up a load for the IC barrel that patterns like a modified.

I'm with Ted.....Yikes!

I have three guns with choke tubes. Two waterfowl that I have never removed the mod choke in, and a citori lightning 20ga. that shoots sporting clays, and grouse, and phez....and have never changed the skt1 and lm choke configuration.

In the field I have never seen anyone change their chokes. Now changing the load....is another story.

Plus the wife knows that one NEEDS different guns for different types of sport shooting and different types of prey....ergo my twelve guns!!!

Never, ever, seen a choke tube change in the field. Maybe Stan can comment? Most, not all, but most of the guys I hunt with use a double of some sort, and two chokes is, in itself, changing, I guess.
I'd bet we all hunt within .020 of choke range. Some good hunting combinations from .000-.020.

Best,
Ted

Yes, I have seen chokes changed a few times on a dove field, but very seldom. I shoot a Beretta 687 SPII Sporting 20 ga. for doves a good bit, and have been known to change one of the chokes in it shooting doves. I played with the chokes in Argentina on this gun, and soon decided I liked a IM/LM combination in it for doves ........ MOST of the time. Early season I like a bit more open first barrel, as the doves are less wary and you get a lot closer shots.

If I were limited to nothing but this one gun, with my box of extended Comp-N-Chokes, I could do well on anything I hunt, with the exception of, maybe, the "tall ones" over the cypresses. But, glad I ain't.

SRH

A two trigger gun with cylinder or skeet in the right barrel and mod or full in the left is pretty versatile.

I believe that I just heard old Bob Brister, standing up in his grave and applauding. From "Shotgunning: The Art and the Science": " . . . I do know that at 25 yards a pure-cylinder barrel will throw one of the deadliest game-getting patterns you ever looked at . . . " If you figure that cyl will pattern 70% at 25 yards, which seems to be pretty much the standard "book" figure, and if you assume that your pattern % decreases by 10% for every additional 5 yards, that still puts you at 60% at 30 yards (same as mod at 40 yards). So if you're shooting something like 1 1/8 oz 6 shot, you ought to have one heck of a deadly pheasant slayer, at least out to 30 yards. And with good dogs in decent pheasant country, you should get quite a few chances at pheasants no farther out than that.

Well, after reading some insightful thoughts on opening chokes on my Ugartecha and some soul searching, I ended up having the MOD/FULL opened to Skeet 1 (.005) and Imp. Cyl. (.010). I've found that using BPI Brush wads and lead 7.5's gives me true 005/010 patterns that should be just the ticket for early season forest grouse. If I switch to Red PC's and nickel 7.5's I get something approaching Imp. Cyl./Mod. patterns. Perfect for what I was looking for. My latest gun is usually my current favorite and will get extensive use on blue grouse/prairie grouse/woodcock and ruffs this coming Sept./Oct. And yes, Ted, my Ugglie looks a lot like the one you pictured. Now comes the next decision, do I put a recoil pad on it to tame the recoil on a 6 1/4# gun that has some significant recoil with 1 1/8 loads? Or, do I back off to 1 oz. loads which are comfortable to shoot as is.

I agree that a 6-1/4 pound gun will have noticeable recoil with 1-1/8 loads. But then, I never use 1-1/8 loads for forest grouse. I use a 16 gauge a lot and load either 7/8 or 1 ounces of #7 or #7-1/2 and that does fine on ruffs and even sharptails. Federal one ounce loads seem to be milder than Remington, too.

I love discussions about choke constriction and how people have reasoned out their choice or adjust their loads to make their chokes much more versatile. I/C will take a lot of game under most shooting conditions if you match your load and shot to your needs. I spent one entire year shooting nothing but I/C for everything from dove, quail, ducks, geese and anything else I happened to encounter. By changing loads I was never under gunned or poorly choked. A few times I did have to be careful of my range and shot selection but far less than one might think.

I've become spoiled with gauge and choke choices. More so when shooting my doubles which give me two choices to select from. In fact I often choose a double not because it might be the best gun for the job but because I get two choke choices on every first shot. Very comforting. Now if I were into bag limits as quickly possible a good black plastic semi shooting all loads from 2 3/4- 3 1/2" Roman candles would be a better choice. But where is the fun in that. I might as well be into shooting paintballs.

KY Jon,
I agree, I/C-Mod works great by adjusting loads. My 12's are 6 1/2 lbs. and are very comfortable to shoot using 1 oz. loads with checkered buttstocks. Adjustments in shot hardness, shot size and the like is usually all that's needed. Still, I often wonder how much better Skt/Mod would be given a two choke difference in constriction.
Karl

I have a Brit 16 bore 2 1/2" with "IC/Mod" chokes awaiting import. I believe in their choke designation, IC=Skeet for us, but Mod=?? I will just have to pattern it. The barrels and chokes confirm to the 1900 build sheet, so I am hesitant to ream out. I will pattern first. If too tight for my typical 20-30 yard shots, I will experiment with RST Spread-R loads and see what I can achieve.

Mod and their "half choke", I believe, are pretty much the same. So likely something around .015 constriction. The IC should be more like .005.