It looks like a converted pin-fire to me.
Look at the breech end of the right barrel and it looks like a block has been inserted where the "hole" for the cartridge pin would be and a faint indication on the left side.
Also, the side views show the way the wood has been "lowered" to make way for the center-fire pins leaves the tang very proud of the wood.
That is an absolutely beautiful JD Dougall, every facet of this gun is top notch. One of my favorite actions, and a highly underrated maker. Excellent gun. Thanks for posting.
That is a beautiful JD Dougall 'Lockfast' in fantastic condition.
I believe I read some place where one of our more distinguish British authors used his JD Dougall to resize his brass empties because the camming action on the Lockfast is so strong. Although he was reluctant to admit to using a JD Dougall as a piece of reloading equipment.
Looks like a pinfire conversion to me.
I am absolutely green with envy. I keep searching for a "light", nice condition Dougall. Maybe someday.....
Looks like a conversion but it is a very fine looking gun in wonderful condition
Old Farmer,
Thanks for sharing those pics, i love conversion pieces as they are a interesting part of our gun making history!
Daryl,
that's a super gun and must take pride of place in your collection. I have a particular soft spot for pinfires i hope i find one as good one day!
The firm had an interesting history and, as I'm sure you know, had the John Wilkes connection too! This is what IGC has on them:
Name John Dougall / Dougal
Other Names J & J Dougall; J D Dougall; J D Dougall & Sons
Address1 88 Trongate
Address2 177 Trongate
Address3 177 Trongate & 9 Argyll Arcade
Address4 52 Argyll Arcade and 177 Trongate
Address5 51-52 Argyll Arcade and 177 Trongate
Address6 23 Gordon Street
City/Town Glasgow
County Lanarkshire
State/Region/Province Scotland
Country United Kingdom
Trade Gunmaker
Other Address 59 St James's Street, London; 8 Bennett Street, St James's Street, London.
Dates 1760-1896
Notes
John Dougal (Dougall) (John (I))established his business in 1760, possibly at 88 Trongate, but it was not until 1808 that he became a hammerman and purchased his admission as a burgess and guild brother. In 1816 he was recorded at this address as a fishing rod maker. In 1818, he described himself as a needle and fish hook maker. In 1819 his son, James Dalziel Dougal (James (I)), was born. In 1819 John (I) was admitted to the Incorporation as a fish-hook maker and his "essay" was to make "a small steel opener". In 1826 he moved to 177 Trongate, and in 1828 he opened an additional shop at 9 Argyll Arcade where he described himself as a fishing tackle maker.
In 1830 the business at 9 Argyll Arcade traded as J & J Dougall. At this time James (I) was only 11 years old, so it seems that his partner must have been a relative, possibly a brother. In 1831 the business at 177 Trongate traded as John Dougall, fish hook maker, but the business of J & J Dougall opened another shop at 52 Argyll Arcade where it traded as fishing and fowling tackle makers. In about 1840 John (I) appears to have retired or died, as does his relative in the business, and it was continued by James (I). From 1840 the firm described themselves as gunmakers, fishing & fowling tackle makers. From 1841 the business traded as James D Dougall and it seems their only premises were at 52 Argyll Arcade. At this time James was 22 years old and recently married to Janet (b.1818). In 1842 James' first son, John (John (II), was born, he was followed in 1844 by a daughter, Margaret, and in 1850 by a second son, James D (James (II)). In 1844 James (I) was admitted as a burgess and guild brother. In 1845 he was admitted into the Incorporation as a fish-hook maker, his "essay" being "a square broach or widener".
By 1848 the firm had acquired additional premises at 51 Argyll Arcade and James (I) described himself as a fishing tackle maker and practical gunmaker. An advertisement at this time stated that the firm had been established in 1760 and offered "an extensive assortment of Fowling pieces" and "in the workshop department every care is taken in the manufacturing of guns, the best material only being used and superior workmen only employed"; "Guns restocked and bored to shoot close and strong". From 1850 the firm occupied 23 Gordon Street and traded as gun maker and fishing tackle manufacturer. An advertisement at this date stated "Fowling pieces. Rifles etc. made to order to any style or pattern. and their shooting warranted, being bored and tested on an unerring principle." In the 1851 census James and Janet were recorded living at 3 Cathcart Street. James (I) was described as a fishing tackle maker employing 8 men, Janet was described (probably an error which actually referred to James) as a gun maker employing 6 men. They were living with both sons and their daughter, Margaret. In 1854 James (II) described himself as a gunsmith and fishing tackle manufacturer. James (I) was one of the first English gun makers to recognise the potential of the breech loading guns exhibited by Lefaucheux at the Great Exhibition in 1851, and much of the later success of his business was to come from them. In 1857 "The Field" published an advertisement which read "BREECH-LOADING GUNS.-In addition to the manufacture of the very superior Fowling-Pieces which have gained the Advertiser so great celebrity as a gunsmith, he has now respectively to state that he is preparing to take Orders for BREECH-LOADING FOWLING PIECES. A few excellent light Double guns on hand, of best quality, will be sold at a very moderate price, as he is now working entirely to order against next season.-J. D. Dougall, 23 Gordon-street, Glasgow. Established 1760."
On 3 March 1859 J D Dougall registered patent No. 566 for a muzzle-loading breech action with recoiling chambers and a long nipple vent which ignited the front of the powder charge. In 1869 James(I) and Janet had a third son, Norman W, who later joined the business. On 7 May 1860 James (I) registered patent No. 1128 for his famous "Lockfast" action, where the barrels, rotating on the hinge pin which also acted as a cam, slide forward before dropping down, and lock into bosses on the action face when closing. The first version of this was a pin-fire gun with an upward moving lever, the improved version was a centre fire with a downward moving lever. Twelve or so years later, Dougall introduced a snap action version. The patent was used by Holland & Holland, amongst others. In the 1861 census James (I) and Janet were not recorded anywhere in the UK, they may have been on an extended visit to London. However, the rest of the Dougall family were living with the Colquhoun family at 124 Pitt Street. Peter Colquhoun was a commission merchant, it may be that he was a relative, perhaps Janet's brother. John (II) was aged 19 and described as a gunsmith, James (II) was 11 years old and a scholar, Norman was only 2 years old. In 1862 the firm exhibited their guns in London and were awarded a medal.
On 8 October 1863 James (I) registered patent No. 2468 for a hinged chamber for punt guns and other large guns. In 1864 James (II) described himself as a gun and rifle maker and fishing tackle manufacturer. In this year John (II) was left to manage the Glasgow shop and James (I) and James (II) moved to London where they opened a shop at 59 St James's Street. James (I) became involved at this time with the Schultze gunpowder company, precisely what his involvement was is unknown. Over the preceding years, James Dalziel Dougall had increasingly devoted himself to writing to shooting magazines (under the pseudonym of "A Scottish Gunmaker") and writing books. Amongst his titles were "Scottish Field Sports", "Shooting Simplified" and "The Rifle Simplified". In 1865 he republished "Shooting Simplified". In 1866 the firm was awarded a medal at an exhibition in India, no record of this exhibition is known. In 1866 James (I) and William Bartram (a London implement and powder flask maker), patented a powder measure (No. 1984).
In 1867 the firm exhibited guns in Paris and were awarded a medal. John Wilkes worked for the firm from around 1867. In 1868 James (I) described himself as a "patent lockfast gun and rifle maker and fishing tackle manufacturer", and in 1871 as a breech loading gun and rifle manufacturer. In the 1871 census John C Dougall was recorded as a gunmaker manager living with the Beaton family at 13 Partick, Glasgow. The rest of the family were recorded at 51 Bedford Gardens, Kensington. In 1872 J D Dougall was appointed Gun and Rifle Manufacturer to the Prince of Wales (later Edward VII), who ordered a Lockfast gun. From about this date Dougall guns carried the Prince of Wales' feather crest on the action, or words referring to the Royal Appointment. The firm was also given an appointment to the Duke of Edinburgh (Alfred) but the precise date this occurred is not known. In 1875 James Dalziel Dougall wrote "Shooting: Its Appliances, Practices and Purpose" (republished in 1881).
On 24 April 1877 J D Dougall registered patent No. 1590 for a guardless folding trigger. In the 1881 census James (I) and his family were still living at 51 Bedford Gardens. James was recorded as a gunmaker employing 10 men, James (II) and Norman were described as gunmakers. In 1882 the firm moved to 8 Bennett Street, St James's Street, London, and started to trade as J D Dougall & Sons. In 1887 James (I) became a director of the Smokeless Powder Company Ltd (The Smokeless Powder and Ammunition Co Ltd). On 28 February 1891 James (I) died aged 72, and James (II) took over the firm. In the 1891 census the house at 51 Bedford Gardens was occupied by Janet, James (II), Margaret and her daughter, and Norman. James(II) described himself as a gun and gunpowder maker, Norman described himself as a gunmaker.
In 1892 James (II) became the first Chairman of the Armourers Club (the Gun Trade Association), a position he held until 1895. In 1893 he was recorded as Managing Director of the Smokeless Powder Company Ltd. In this year the inaugural meeting of the Inanimate Bird Shooting Association took place with James (II) as chairman. In 1895 the Glasgow business was sold to Charles A Ingram (nephew of the famous target rifle maker). In 1894 James (II) died aged only 44. It would appear that John Wilkes, in the position of manager, ran the business for his executors until 1896 when it closed and Bozard & Co took over the premises. There is a report that states that John Wilkes became a partner in the business in 1871, and another report that the date was about 1879, but Wilkes later claimed that his own business was "established 1880". The business in Glasgow was continued under the name of James Dalziel Dougall & Sons by Charles A Ingram who, in 1904 moved it to 3 West Nile Street, Glasgow, and in 1912 to 18a Renfield Street, Charles Ingram's address at the time was 18b Renfield Street. In 1920 the firm occupied 4 Bothwell Street, Glasgow, it ceased to trade under the Dougall name between 1923 and 1929, although the firm of Charles Ingram continued until 1946.
Other Info
The firm sold Eley Pegamoid cartridges under their own name, they also sold a cartridge named the "Shield" (post 1880).
Tim
I love the green man: very distinctive and unusual.
A nice pinfire for my battery has eluded me for years.
Thanks everyone for your comments. Daryl - unfortunately it isn't mine but belongs to a friend. He was thinking of selling it but seems to have changed his mind after all the very positive comments. He brought it down to the shooting ground where he let me have a go with it. It handles very well and broke both the driven targets off my high tower very convincingly. Those old guys knew how to make a gun handle well. I am however in the process of getting a Perrins pin fire restored to working order. Some of you may have seen the photos I posted some time ago of the really nice 14 bore pin fire which was missing it's hammers and someone had attempted to convert it to centre fire and given up. Well we found a set of hammers which with a little adjustment will hopefully work and look right. An engineering friend of mine is doing the work and is going to make some brass cartridges for it. I then have to get it entered on my shotgun certificate before firing it. As soon as I have it back and in working order it needs the engraved name and address re doing and the barrels browning and she should be ready. Hopefully for the start of the next game season which is only about 10 months away here in the UK( we still have a month and a half before the end of this one)
Hope you all have a good Christmas and get lots of long thin presents which will go bang!
John
4 pin bridle, rebounding lock. That's a best Stanton all right.
JD Dougall was a great inventor and gunmaker.
He was instrumental in popularizing the centre fire, break open gun.
And of course, he had his slide and tilt patent.
His books are certainly worth a read as well.
I own a very similar gun #3284 ca 1874.
It was made in Scotland for a murky individual in St Louis, MO, went to Texas, then Paris, and is now in California. That's quite a trip.
Dougall would advertise the grade on some of his guns. The one I have is graded "Highest quality" on the action, barrels, etc.
I'll post pics when I can.
Best regards,
WC-
Hmmm....that is interesting data. I just checked mine and found that it's a little newer than yours and it's also marked HIGHEST with the Prince's crest. How did you get the records on yours? Can you find any history on mine?
Wow: I'm pretty sure that wasn't engraved on just any old gun...
WoW x 2 how good is that stock head & oil free.
O.M
Brit guns always knock my socks off whenever I see their workmanship. I knew I should have bought that William Evans way back when at that shop in Sharpsburg.
"These doubles are clumsy, I might as well keep my Stevens."
"Here, try this one."
I'll never forget shouldering that Brit nor what he said. The expression on my face made the gunsmith laugh and he said, "Yea, I know, a leaf falls off a tree and a Brit gun wants to point at it........That's how they build them."
Agree with your point above.....this one fits as though it's an extension of my body...
Kcordell, that example of yours bears the crest for the Prince of Wales. If it does have a Royal provenance then you have a real gem. With the age of the gun the then Prince of Wales would have gone on to become King Edward VII. Certainly worth looking into. Lagopus.....
Thanks Lagopus. That is why I inquired WildCattle on how he got the provenance on his gun as the records must be somewhere. He has not chimeed back in. As you can see, it's been well cared for and is a great companion in the field.
The Prince of Wales' feathers are there because Dougall had a warrant for the PoW. And NOT because the gun was made for him.
My gun has the same crest on it.
There are no records available. I know about the original owner of my gun because it is written on the rib!
"Made expressly for Charles L. Hunt St Louis"
I am afraid that's all anyone can give you.
Your gun is in a much better shape than mine when I found it. Enjoy it!
Best regards,
WC-
Just like London busses - you wait years for interesting guns to come along and then two turn up in a space of a few weeks. Rather than start a new thread it seems appropriate to add this one to the Dougall topic as it bears some similarities. There is probably 140 or 150 years between them but just have a look at the photo. You may need to double click the image to get it to a good size as I am now using a different programme from photobucket as it is almost impossible to get it to work.
Well yes it is an O/U and it doesn't drop open but it does slide forward and it does have the bosses on the breach faces like the Dougall. I apologise for the quality of the photo but I only had a few moments and the phone to hand.
I am told by the owner - who has had it 20 years and it certainly wasn't new when he bought it, that it was made as a prototype by a man called Cavener of Cheltenham (UK)It is a double trigger, non ejector. He believes it is a one off. The top lever is pushed down to lift the locking gate then the barrels will slide forward to load/unload the gun. He says that it isn't the slickest of mechanisms!! The triggers are interesting as well - you have to pull the back one before you can pull the front one. The gun will fire if you pull the front trigger exceptionally hard - so he isn't sure if the back trigger unlocks the front or it is rubbish engineering. Once the back trigger has been fired the front one works very smoothly. The firing pins are also interesting - they are spring loaded but to leave them protruding rather than being retracted. As the barrels are pulled back they are pushed in by the cartridges so they are sitting on the cap under a little pressure. Again a novel idea but apparently it has never misfired. A fascinating piece of engineering but one it is easy to see why it didn't get beyond the prototype!
John
I think it is a Kavanagh. I can't remember where I saw a study on them. I think in the DGJ.
IIRC the Fenian model or something to that effect.
I would certainly not put it in the same class as the Dougall.
Best regards,
WC-
I too think that is a Kavanagh Finian. He was an eccentric inventor and the Fenian is said to have been the last shotgun to have been made in Ireland. This is what IGC have on them:
Name P V Kavanagh & Sons
City/Town Dublin
Country Ireland
Trade Gunmaker
Dates 1850?-1965?
Notes
It appears there was a firm known as P V Kavanagh & Sons in Dublin, Ireland. Its relationship, if any, to William Kavanagh is unknown. P V Kavanagh & Son appear to have designed a vertical barrelled (O/U) gun which they had made for them in Birmingham. The gun had a slide-forward breech opened by a push-down top lever which lifted a vertical locking bolt behind the breech face. As the breech opened, assisted by the mainsprings, fired cartridges were ejected with the assistance of a spring operated bar in the action bar. On closing the gun the locks were cocked, and the barrels slotted onto adjustable projections in the breech face the projection making the headspace adjustable (the only part of the gun to be patented). The barrels were fitted to a monoblock at the breech end, while variable chokes were screwed in at the other, full length side ribs were not fitted, a ventilated top rib was optional. The fore-end was fixed. The gun was produced over a period of about 10 years around 1950, it appeared in slightly differing forms but was never perfected. It is thought one or two were made by the a company specially set-up for the purpose, the Fenian Gun Co. Guns bearing this name and that of P V Kavanagh have been seen.
Tim
It certainly sounds like the same gun by the description of the action. I was only going by what the owner told me - he said it was spelt with a 'C' which I thought a little odd at the time - but then it was a strange gun!!! and he was quite insistent that its origins were in Cheltenham - perhaps the Irish lads were over for the races and left it behind!
I agree - it certainly isn't in the same league as the Dougall but it was because of the couple of design feature perhaps they had seen one and maybe a Darn as well.
I would have described as 'Agricultural!. For all that an interesting relic and apparently still shoots very well.
John
