I really don't know where to go to seek information about this other than here. If there is a more appropriate place, please point me there and I will not soil our double gun forum with pumpgun stuff.

But until then ..... nothing about early repeating shotguns screams ducks to me more than a '97 Winchester. Grandaddy told me he used one very effectively drifting the Savannah River for ducks for many years. Even though I am a dedicated and true double gun man, I find myself wanting a '97 duck gun like Grandaddy might have used. But, I know nearly nothing about them. And, I have lots of questions.

Go somewhere else to get my questions answered, or ask here?

SRH

I don't know why you couldn't, except for having to purchase non-toxic shells safe for the barrel.

Almost all M97's were made with full choke. I happen to own a factory "Mod" but it is one of the only I've seen.

But a lot of them are far less than collectible condition, so opening the choke wouldn't hurt value... might even elevate it if you had something like Briley thin wall chokes installed. The stock might crack with high vel. steel loads, or might last forever. But you might do better to run 1200 FPS bismuth through it or handload some ITX.

You'd probably have a great time using one, and if you dropped it in the river or ruined the stock you are only out $500, not a couple $K or more.

I think you will be limited to 2 3/4 inch shells. I don't think they made any with a 3 inch chamber. But my dad killed quite a few ducks with short magnums back in lead shot days. I don't know why you couldn't do the same with 2 3/4 inch bismuth.

Stan, There were A,B and C models. Try to get the B or C if possible as they have smoother and better actions I have been told. I have had several and I love them too as they are the classic end of the nineteenth century Duck guns

Stan,
Sounds like a grand adventure
I see no reason you can not duck hunt with a hammered pump gun
Remember the 3 shot plug
Enjoy and when it happens post pictures.
Thinking of trying my 1887 Winchester, that should be a real hoot.

Mike

What was the latest that they made the '97, and what do you think was the barrel steel in those later guns? If they were good, strong fluid steel barrels what would be the problem with using steel? We're only talking about a $600 gun, in good condition, here. My BSS is not recommended for steel either, but I opened the chokes and have shot steel in it for years with no problems. Just how good was the steel in the '97s?

SRH

I believe 1957 was the last year of production.

Stan they sold the thing up through 1957 I seem to remember. I am sure the barrel steel was whatever they were using through the years. Later mfg. date, probably better steel...Geo

Goillini remembered before I could.

A buddy of mine had a '97 when we were teenagers. I shot it a few times duck hunting. One thing I do remember is that the hammer cut the fool out of my thumb once on a hunt when it "slam-fired"!...Geo

So, how about the receiver and bolting ......... just how strong was it?

SRH

Lots here about strength and improvements over the years:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winchester_Model_1897>
...Geo

As I recall Roy Dunlap, Arizona Gunsmith & author of a book "Gunsmithing" stated the model 97 action was strong enough to be barreled for a .30-06. He didn't per-se recommend it, but strength wasn't the factor. The model 93 which preceded it was a different story.
Anyone interested in the '97 should be sure & try to read Nash Buckingham's "De Shootn'est Gent'man". In this story he talks about an Englishman's (Mr Money) use of a 97 to great effect on Ducks.

I've read that story more than "one'st", Miller. Thanks for the input on the strength of the action. It's sounding better and better.

Thanks for those references too, Geo.

Were none made with a ribbed barrel?

SRH

No reason not to use one for ducks. You just have to use the correct non-toxic load for them. Bismuth should be fine.

I own several 97's including two with the Damascus barrel option. Some day I'm going to work up a NT load for the Damascus guns and take some ducks with them.

If I were shopping for a '97 to shoot, I'd check the serial number/date chart and pick a number representing say post 1950. I think one that late would have all the improvements and that would make me feel safer shooting it...Geo

So, when were the last improvements made, and what were they? Is it possible to say that after such and such a year, the '97s were at their best/strongest?

SRH

Ackley chambered the 1897 in 30/40 Krag, Mike Petrov told me all about it. &#128512; The 97' is a very strong gun.
I own a 16 gauge 1897 circa 1914, factory modified bbl. I kill a few ducks a year with it. A few years ago when I lived in Nebraska, I used my 97' a lot. From early Teal to January mallards. I'd say it's a pretty serious duck gun.

I've had a couple, strength is the last thing I would worry about if I were buying a new one, I think they were all good. My biggest consideration would be stock dimensions.
The only issue I'm aware of with them is poor ejection. Sometimes a new ejector will fix it, sometimes the problem is the left extractor, it has a long tail which can crack, or I suppose it can wear, but it isn't obvious. When this happens, empties just sort of dribble out the ejection port. Its an easy fix, but you'd be surprised how many gunsmiths fail to figure it out.
If I saw one I liked and had the money I'd just buy it, I think they're wonderful guns.

Tim

I have #2182xx here. Great grandfather's gun from the farm.

Madis says 1904.

It's tight, even the takedown system is tight. That's where I've seen older ones get lose. The bore is very pitted, but there's enough 'beef' that I consider it safe with reasonable target loads.

The carrier is also the locking piece. It's a big chunk of machine work that locks into the breech bolt about half it's diameter. It may be the strongest shotgun action I've seen.

They are great fun, and a direct link to The Master himself.

Do remember, they have 97 moving parts, you can slam fire for flock shooting and the Black Diamond trap guns are the only ones with real value.
When you tire of shooting duck you can saw it off at 18" for the home defense plan. Kachunk!
I prefer M-12s but have a real fondness for 1897s as well and still shoot a round back pump .22.

Damn strong.

I had an original that was cut off for cowboy action shooting. Made in 1905 I believe. I never did a thing to it. I fired it rapid fire nearly every time I loaded it and it ALWAYS went bang. I never had one miss feed, failure to fire, failed ejection, nothing. The only round of skeet I ever cleared was with that gun. Other than lowering the price of production I can't imagine an improvement could ever be made on the pump shotgun after that.

An old guy watching me shuck out skeet with it called me over after my round to tell me he used to carry one as a backwoods assistant deputy when he was younger. He said all it took to stop a bar fight was to walk in the door and rack the action on the '97 as loud as he could.
CHAZ

Wouldn't it be fun to take one to Argentina where you could take the plug out and use lead, for ducks? We've been talking about another trip there, hmmm.

SRH

Actually the A was the Model 1893. There were B, C, D and E variations of the Model 1897/97. About the last 600000 were E variations.

I long wanted one as two of my great interests, Harold Money (De Shootinest Gent'man) and Ansley H. Fox, used them when they were Knights of the Trigger for the big W. Finally picked up a high condition, very late E version with serial number just over one million. Lots of moving parts, and if not pumped just right your done. No forgiveness. Can't get away with a double shuffle as one can with a Model 12/42 or Remington Model 31. Happy day when I traded it off on another Browning Superposed.

And, watch the position of your right thumb!! I've seen some serious bleeding at vintage pump gun events when the breechbolt of a Model 97 lances open a shooters thumb.

Pick a little used late gun and you will save yourself the misery of a broken gun and no gunsmith. Steven says "97 parts". He is right on.

I have one in 16 gauge, and another in 12 gauge on longterm loan from my Dad. To add to the above, be extremely careful letting the hammer down with cold hand and gloves.

I have a 12 Model 97 (a favorite of Shooting Sportsman editor Silvio Calabi- by the way- made in 1926 std. 30" full choke, reblued and refinished by the Model 12 guys in Harvester MO. before I bought it- all lettering is sharp and clean. I also have 2 pre-1949 Model 12 12 gauges with 30" full choked barrels- this 97 is way tighter, and has been a favorite turkey gun for as long as I have owned it. Have not used it for steel shot and waterfowling, have also shot some 16 yard Trap with it.

This is a takedown series, with the Winchester Model 1897 stamping on the action slide bar. Has a very crisp trigger, and if you like guns with an outside hammer (Model 71 and Model 1894 Winchesters come to mind) you'd like this one. $600.00 plus insured shpg. to your FFL, 3 day shooting inspection trial period after receipt day, 100% refund of the $600 if you don't like it. I can get you fotos if you wish- e-mail me at dsmorin @ hotmail.com if interested. Has a brown Uncle Mikes slip on buttpad, as I like a 14&1/4" LOP on my duck hunting pumpguns, and 14" is more common on the older Winchesters I enjoy. Drop is 1&1/2" at comb and 1&7/8" at heel- with slip on pad installed. Std. 18 ring corn-cob field style forearm.. One of John M. Browning's best designs ever--IMO-- RWTF

My old '93. Good bore but a gun that has seen a lot of use before I got it; not a vestige of original finish. Sometimes use it with Black Powder loads but being a non-takedown model it is a pig to clean afterwards. Note low serial number. Lagopus.....

My 97 was orig a Mod choke but the bbl was seriously bent when I bought it. So I cut it to 26" and it's now a cyl/26" which was the 'Brush Gun' configuration once offered.

No reason any 97 can't be used for ducks with the right ammunition. Would the duck know any difference?
They are plenty strong with the milled/machined carrier lockup to the bolt. Some small internal changes between thru the years but eccentially all the same.
The TD is the same as the M12 as is the adj take up system. The solid frames are a bit more elusive on the market than the TD's.

The butt stocks attach w/a thru bolt like the M12. There is a tapered attachment section screwed to the rear of the frame that the thru bolt screws to. That taper can cause the wood to split if the fit becomes loose and the stock is then over tightened in attempts to bring everything together. MAny of the older ones have a cracked butt stock on the side(s).
Like the M12, the drop can be adj somewhat by bending that attachment section and then re-inletting the butt stock face to the frame.

The ejector somewhat frail and screwed to the outside left side of the frame. It's 90* angle points inside the frame and raceway and kicks the shell out of the gun,,but not with a lot of authority as stated.
The ejector spring as they call it can break it's point off inside and you'll get no ejection at all. But looking at the gun it'll appear that the ejector is still in place as the rest of it is still in place on the outside secured by that small screw. Check inside with the bolt to the rear.
Replacements (repros) are pretty easy to come by now as the popularity of the guns have increased a lot due to cowboy shooting. Inexpensive too compared to years back when only original parts were around.

Shell stops wear like any pump or auto, as do extractors.
The firing pin has a block in it that freezes it when the bolt is unlocked, but can be defeated due to wear. Any old(er) gun should be gone over well to check condition before use.
Half cock safety is the only safety. Slide release button on the side of the frame.

You, sir are correct. Over 1 million, most in 12 gauge- and not including the previous open top breech model 1893 that WRA re-worked into the 1897 design. First series was a non-take-down, then the take-down option was offered and the solid frame model relegated to the brush gun- shorter magazine with 26" cyl, bore barrel. Jim Carmichael once wrote his uncle who used such a M1897 for quail- said it sounded like a chain saw as it shucked out 5 empty paper hulls and five dead quail hit the ground. Mama mia.

Send me some photos, Francis, and thanks for the offer. (stanhillis@gmail.com) I am watching an auction today, too.

An old quail hunting friend of my Grandad's told me about once seeing Grandaddy shoot into a covey of birds on the ground with his '97, killing seven, then kill six more on the rise with the remaining six shells. 13 quail with 7 shells. These were the times of meat hunting on this farm, and shooting into a covey on the ground only saved shells.

SRH

The increased firepower of the old Model '97 probably contributed as much as any gun design to the eventual demise of the double gun; as in turn of the century accounts of hunting prowess, I've read more than one account of a Model '97 shooter having seven dead ducks in the air simultaneously. I don't know any shooter that could do that with a side x side? These old time meat hunters were very good at their craft; and no wander pumps and semi-autos are required to be plugged to 3 shells.

Only one problem I don't think they ever held seven shells....

Maybe I'm remembering it wrong, or maybe Mr. Starr remembered it wrong. That was many years ago. What is the capacity ............. 5 in the mag and 1 in the hole?

SRH

I don't think they ever held 7 shells....

I suspect it was used by market hunter of late 19th and early 20th century. It is remarkable design with many parts that lasted for long time while it's competitors like the Burgess or Spencer did not. I seem to remember capacity being same as Model 12 five plus 1. I'm always on lookout for long barreled open choke one. The last "shot & ball" special was 16ga with long barrel and IC choke. It was in bad shape so I did not buy it. One advantage of this gun is that Norconia (Norinco) is making new clones for Cowboy shooters. I suspect parts will interchange with little fitting. This is big plus for this model.

I wouldn't take anything for my 97...it was made around 1954 I don't think the wood is original to the gun. I know the pads not because I put it on. The barrel is 30" full choked, It's a smoker on sporting clays. I duck hunted with it last year in Arkansas and shot 2&3/4" Bismuth.

I've heard the old stories of people cutting their hands on the back of the bolt...but that can only happen if you're not paying attention to what you are doing.

In my opinion it was one of John Brownings premier designs...the gun the model 12 always wanted to be.

Will do, and you are welcome, Stan. I have never seen either a Model 12 or a Model 97 with an extension magazine, as sometimes seen on both Browning A-5 and Remington M11's (pre-1934 3 shot plug law)- back in the market hunting days. My Model 97 will hold 6- five in the magazine tube and 1 in the chamber- the Model 12's hold one more shell - both sans the plug. By the way, Stan, my M1897 is a series E--last revision that I am aware of until the last ones were built in 1957. I keep a 3 shot plug in it, as the Fall turkey season here in MI runs from Sept. 15th to November 14th, and overlaps the waterfowl season. I don't need some over zealous "Raccoon Ranger" trying to give me a citation because 90% of the private lands I hunt for turkeys are also areas where I hunt ducks and geese. That's also why I haven't yet used the M97 with steel shot, as we can still use lead shot loads legally for turkey hunting. But I have 4 12 gauge Model 12's that I have been shooting steel shot loads in for 30 years or so, all have original factory full chokes, and there is absolutely no sign of any bulging of the barrels, whether at the muzzles or elsewhere. Can't beat the WRA nickel steel or Winchester Proof Steel barrels on the Model 12's or 97's either. Darn near indestructible.

Almost, oh Murph of Da Surf. pages 87 and 88 of my Winchester Catalog number 75 (actually, catalogue) March 1909- I counted 98, but what da hey, right? And the devil is in the details, right? Hope you fared well at the Vintagers blast this week-end. I was in Peru, Indiana after doves- Fox 20 bore- raised the profit margin for RST, that's for sure- lotsa air around those doves--

I have two. One is a 30's gun, which prior to my purchasing it, had the barrel cut to 24" and a Briley choke tube installed. I use it for deer driving when I want to change up from the NID Mag 10. It patterns my stash of Hevishot OO very well. The prior owner used it for a turkey gun.

The other is a 50's made gun with 30" full choke barrel. Never have quite figured out why I bought it, other than I had wanted one ever since reading Nash Buckingham back when I was in high school. Never figured out a use for it. I have thought it might make a good late season dove gun or even for walk up snipe, but just have not gotten around to giving it a try. This just might be the year.

Lord Ripon, famous British game gun (over 500,000 head killed) claimed to have had 7 birds dead in the air at one time. Gotta call BS. Folks have worked out the math (assuming single kills, and high birds) and proven it's impossible,

He may have had two guns and a holder/loader. Couldn't have done it with one.

He could have, by killing the last one after beginning to reload. Anyone who has ever hunted quail very much knows that there are stragglers that get up. This is not a rare occurrence, but happens often. Just because there is a covey rise doesn't mean all the birds got up at the same time.

SRH

I believe old Oliver (Olly) aka Lord Ripon used two loaders and a trio of Purdey hammer guns with ejectors. I think it was possible, he devoted his entire life to excellence in wingshooting, and kept himself in good shape- was blessed was great eyesight- like Harold Money, and Ernest Hemingway's father, Dr. Clarence Hemingway- which is a "must" to be able to shoot that well- hand to eye co-ordination and near perfect gun fit and balance. I say that Lord Ripon did indeed have 7 dead birds in the air over a minute's duration- as none of us were extant back in that place in time, we can only guess. As far as a computer model is concerned, well I just say the movie "Sully" and that deflates computer models over experienced pilot judgement, big time.. RWTF

I've never owner a pump gun (just weren't interesting to me personally), and therefore have no experience with the Model 97; but obviously my reference to 7 shells is one more example of why one should never believe everything he sees in print. But regardless one less, or having only six birds in the air simultaneously would be quite a feat; and something impossible for me to duplicate. These days scoring a left and right provides all the personal satisfying I desire.

Hunting stories are like fishing stories...the details grow over time.

Stan,
A local vet and friend grew up in Southwest Georgia with fabulous duck, quail and dove hunting. Pierre Howard, former Ga. Lieutenant Governor, was a little older than Don, but had hunted with him and was from the same area. Pierre was a crack shot who would show up at hunts and act like a city slicker and play the role of a newbie on a dove field with the locals. By the time the hunt was over, the locals were ready to throw him in the nearest pond as he didn't miss. Don hunted quail with him and said he had the knack of first shot doubling on a covey rise with two birds crossing on the rise and killing a third with his second shot. He saw him do it more than once so it wasn't dumb luck. Gil

http://youtu.be/xbCjcEO9z1A

See if this works, skip the ad to see a women handle a 97,no problem with 7 shots.
I've got a 1953 30" full that I love to take out every now and then to shoot a round of trap, pretty much 25 smoke balls every time.

She could stick a couple more in her mouth and get off 9 shots...

Just like the Model 12, the Model 97 started life as a six-shot repeater with five 2 3/4 inch roll crimped shells in the magazine and one in the chamber. The new style Super-Seal crimp shells were just enough shorter that one could get six in the magazine, making them a seven shot repeater. Don't have one in hand to check, but that is what the Winchester catalogues from 1950 on state.

I do know I saw LtCol Dempsie Davies kill six Ptarmigan in six shots on the covey rise with his Model 12 in September 1974, and he said they flock had gotten just too far to try the seventh shot.

They do make a magazine spring kit 'as of late' that will allow the magazine to hold six shells.

The trick used with double gunning (pair of guns and loader) was to take one driven bird first with the choke bore then change guns and take a pair in front before swapping again to take a pair behind. I would doubt if all were still in the air at the same time. There are tales of Walsingham and DeGrey standing side by side at a drive and taking all eight driven partridge coming over between them. Lagopus.....

Five pages to say YES, it is an excellent duck gun..I shoot lotsa ducks with 2 3/4 inch steel number #1's Aint rocket science..

Here's a nice one.

http://www.gunbroker.com/item/585652497

One of the last ones made, by pricing on the label,, the serial number, and also by the field "beavertail" forearm, the earlier M97's had the 18 ring "corncob" style forearm, smaller in dia., and the mid-1930's M97's showed a slight change in the shape of the pistol grip and the comb fluting as well-one of the best pump shotguns extant--

I have 3 1897's that I use mostly for cowboy shooting, a Chinese one (and the parts are NOT interchangeable), an E model in 12 gauge with a 30" barrel choked modified and a C model 16 gauge 30" barrel choked full.

I would definitely recommend getting the E model. Some will hold 6 in the tube, some will hold 5. A 97 does not like to be babied, if you baby it, that's when you'll get jams and hang ups. Ejection problems not related to the gun being babied are usually one of 2 things, the left hand extractor is broken, which you can tell with the bolt open, if you don't see the tail of the spring or it isn't under tension, the extractor spring is broken. The ejected is a little spring that is on the left side and is held in place by a screw. If the tab is bent too far back, there isn't enough energy to eject the shell.

3 for Ducks...That's what this thread is about (or was)...They don't need to be pretty to drag in and out of a muddy blind...

No one wants to hunt with a worn out piece of junk....

That does look like a clean one, but I'm going to call about a 32" one tomorrow morning. A little more worn looking, but it's an "E" model.

Thanks, jOe.

SRH

Any 12 gauge Model 12 with the special order 32" barrel carries a bit of a premium over the more common 30" tube. More M12's in 12 gauge in field guns had 30" full choked plain barrels than any other available combination from 1914 through 1964. Not sure if that carries over with the Model 1897, but it may well be. In the Depression era, the Model 12 field gun sold for $10.00 than the Model 97 field gun-- a drop from the pre- 1930 pricing for both these great repeaters. One theory for the great popularity back in those pre-WW2 years of the 30" full over the 28" barrels offered by WRA- farmer thrift- you got 2" more steel with the 30" barreled M12 or M97 than you got with a 28" barrel, for the same price. I have a 1949 era 3" Magnum Model 12 gauge with a 32" full choked barrel with solid rib-both the 32" barrel and the solid rib make it worth a bit more than my other 3" Magnum M12- made in 1939 with the std. 30" plain barrel full choke. Go figure the market on that, hey??

You do it all the time, jOe

I can't recall ever hunting with you....

The 32"guns are going to be older....I had a solid frame made in the late 1920's I didn't want another old one.

Most if not all of the solid frame (aka- non-take-down)Model 97's made in the 1920's were the Brush models- 26" cylinder bore barrels- one round less capacity in the magazine tube. I believe they were the last in the M97 series to be offered in the non-take-down versions. Wish there were as many detailed books written on the Model 97 Winchesters as on the Model 12 Winchesters.

Stan,

I may have my facts a little skewed, but I believe there was a series of articles in "Shotgun Sports" if my memory is right called, "In search of the 100% Pattern".

Don't know why but I am not sure it was Roster, even though part of me believes it was. I have slept numerous times since I read them.

Anyway, the moral of the story was that through all the testing the closest factory set-up was an 1897 shooting pigeon load hard deuces and it seems like the only one to break the 90% mark at 40yrds. Didn't make 100 though.

Will

When I was in Viet Nam in 1968-69, my PSG carried a 97 Trench Gun, bayonet lug and heat shield. It was a very reliable gun and he loved it.

The gun I am looking at is a 32", E model gun, and according to the serial numbers dates to 1930.

Myself I'd opt for a newer 30" barreled gun.

Thanks for your service to our Country, at a time when we were spit on when we rotated back to the world. Did your Platoon Sgt. make it back OK? I carried a .45 1911-A-1 as my TO weapon, but saw a variety of riot and guard configured 12 gauge pumps "In Country"- Stevens, Winchester Models: 12, 25 and of course the M97 we are discussing here. Occasionally an Ithaca M37 as well.

Gene,
Seems I recall seeing something years ago that you were a Ranger. Were you there before LRRP units were reorganized into the 75th Infantry Regiment (Rangers)? Gil

Yes, the 75th Rangers were formed right when I was there. I had a Recon platoon.

I don't know much re the '97 for a duck gun, but my buddy I'm taking grouse hunting in a couple weeks is chomping at the bit to shoot a grouse with his, which he just had refurbished. I did mention to him he might want to bring a 6 lb or so gun along too. I'm not sure of the weight of a 12 bore Model 97, but I do know 7 lb guns in the Grouse woods get real heavy, real real fast.

LLRP- Long Range Recon Patrols-- Like Westmoreland's "ReConDo" program?? I was an Armorer 2112 in the USMC 3rd MarDiv-- have a great deal of respect for the Rangers- they do a great job of leading the way--

This one fits in your truck nice. It was rusted shut when I got it. This one was going to be "practice" for refinishing my grandpa's 1897 "goose gun". Decided to leave gramp's as he held it. No choke (removed the multi-choke thing).

A 7 lb. Model 1897 in 12 gauge. Doubtful- perhaps in a 16 gauge with 26" barrel.

That Model 97 came out perfect Ryan!!!

You guys keep talking about 2 3/4" shells, I swear when I check the chamber on my Black diamond trap it was only 2.5"?

Am I mistaken?

Jerry

Dam, not you guys got me wanting to bring mine out to the duck club this year!

The 1911 catalog shows the Model 97 as having a 2-3/4" chamber.

Did you check the chamber with the barrel on or off the gun. With the takedown system used on the '97 & '12 models you will get short reading if checking just the barrel off the gun. Part of the chamber stays in the receiver.

You are correct. Just like the dealer's ads for M12 "skeet" guns- with 25&3/4" barrels- the ring ads the 1/4" for the factory std. 26" length. RWTF

Ryan, that is a great looking "shortened" Model 97. I have a couple of 97 Brush Guns that are from the factory as yours is "not from the factory". With 12 gauge shells, it just doesn't matter. The "brush gun" is a great all purpose bird gun.

A '97 takedown front end just showed up for sale today on Shotgunworld.

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopi...5a3f2beca72158b

Lots of busted/altered/pooched pump guns out there to make projects out of. Did the same concept with an Ithaca 37.

Someday I’m going to make a clunker 97 into a rifled slug gun. I don’t think it will be too difficult. Just need one with a bad barrel. Something like this one. http://www.gunauction.com/buy/11612846 I don't know why I want it but I do.


I would like a short barreled O/U too.

I get a kick out of the dealers who state in their ads- "Pre-64" for the Model 97 pumpguns- hell yes, it was discontinued in 1957, seven years before WRA "screwed their own pooch" and dropped the Model 12 and the good Mauser actioned Model 70's-- Some of these numbnutz actually think the Model 1912 Winchester was the predecessor to the Model 12 Winchester-- Model 1912 from 1912 (surprise) to 1919, when WRA decided to drop the numerals 1 and 9 from the barrel roll stamping die, hence the Model 12- trying to convince them of that fact is like trying to shove a pound of melted butter up a cougar's [censored] with a red hot poker, while in a phone booth with said critter-

After I wrote this I got up from my easy chair and checked it again....

Yea I did make the mistake of checking it with the barrels off. I put a caliper on the other end and got an additional .17" so I guess that is pretty close to 2 3/4"

Since many of the manufacturers used slightly short chambers in the days of paper shells, I guess 2 3/4" is correct. My mistake

Jerry

No problem, it is an easy one to make. I have found that the most accurate way to measure the length of the barrel on a Model 1897, or a Model 12 (or it's two clones, both short lived)-- take a Stanley tape rule and run it down the barrel from the muzzle, hook the tab on the back edge of the chamber ring, and read it at the muzzle. A friend has an early Model 1897 non-takedown with the damascus barrel, and it has 2&5/8" chambers--

Did you find one ?

Haven't bought one yet. Still looking around for a good deal. Lots of them out there ........ most of them are asking $100-200 too much for the gun's condition.

SRH

If you find a nice one you'll have to pay a premium.

I saw a Black Diamond Grade Model 97 at a gun show recently that would knock your socks off!!

Big sign: "Display only NOT FOR SALE"

Stan, it looks to me like every time I discover a new toy I don't have and desperately want, the price goes out of sight. Not just me huh?...Geo

I'm not paying a big premium. I can wait as long as it takes to find a deal. I've got a shotgun I can shoot in the meantime.

SRH