I don't hunt much but this came up in a conversation with a buddy of mine. I'm sure you can use a magnet for steel but Bismuth? We have reloaded bismuth and it looks like lead.

hoJo says there is a gadget with a bunch of lights that his Tenn game wardens carry that can tell what's what?...Geo

The shell I was shooting was Hevi-shot it was not Bismuth.

I said several years back I was checked by a Federal Game Warden on a National Wildlife refuge and he had a gadget that he stuck my shell into and it had lights on it that lit up....I didn't ask the bass'turd any questions on how it worked.

For lack of a better term Bismuth is diamagnetic Unlike steel which is sucked into a strong magnet Bismuth behaves in the other direction. If you have a flat disc of Bismuth and place a strong magnet on it the magnet will seem to levitate upwards. You can check to see if shot is Bismuth by seeing if a magnetic field is repelled by it. Steel is attracted, Bismuth is repelled and lead is not effected.

So all a game warden needs is a gizmo which emits a magnetic field and see if it gets distorted to a plus direction or a minus direction. Plus is steel being attracted toward the field, minus is Bismuth being repelled in effect. The gizmo just shows lights, green for steel, red for Bismuth. If neither it could be lead or some other non tox shot. Different gizmos use different combos but they all work along these simple lines. You can use a compass to see the same thing. Steel shot will attract the needle Bismuth will make it shift 90 degrees. Kind of neat.

Regular GA wardens do not have the electronic gizmo. Most have never even heard of it. They carry a magnet. If it is attracted to the load in your shells they know it is steel. If it is not, and you claim it is Non-Tox, he will ask you for a shell and will slice it open to look at the shot and try to determine what it is. Then, he will randomly pull one more shell out of your bag himself, and do the same to it.

This was told me by a veteran, but still active, warden about three weeks ago.

SRH

Well with non tox shells going for three bucks a pop they need to buy a gizmo and save me my money. If they can't afford one they need to stop checking me. I've got an honest face.

I would just carry the box itself with you or have it in the truck to show him. Need to find a place to buy some myself now that you mention it

T3 has Rio Bismuth...Geo

There ain't a box for "These are reloads." You are going to lose a couple of them, at the very best. Hopefully, nothing worse. The game warden advised me that life might be a lot easier if my reloads were not in old lead load hulls.

SRH

Very true Stan. I have heard of the opening the crimp and taking out a pellet. Those sts shells are just good for reloading too

Good to be as prepared as possible for this, but the truth is I've never been checked by a warden, while duck hunting, in my life. And, only three times shooting doves. All three were gentlemen. But, if you get checked by a hard-case with a bad attitude it's gonna be tough convincing him you're carrying bismuth reloads.

This thread has gut-checked me about it. My luck's gonna run out eventually and I'm gonna be checked. I'm gonna take a picture of my reloading set-up with a 7# bottle of bismuth sitting there, and keep it on my cell phone. Might help a bit. And, I've been saving used Bismuth Cartridge Co. hulls, too. Might as well start using them for reloads.

SRH

Who's T3 ?

Sta you don't know how lucky you have been but most of that is because you have hunted in a state without ten game wardens for every county. When I lived in Maryland I got checked five to ten times every year. Both upland, waterfowl and deer season. It was like a second hunting buddy that went where ever you went. And it got worse as time went on. Some days you could get checked two or even three times by the same or different wardens.

I own a very, very small island in the Chesapeake bay that was a tremendous spot for canvas back, red head and blue bills when weather got fowl and the wind came out of one certain direction. Problem was that it was almost worth you life to hunt it. I bought a old Chris Craft cabin cruiser to use as a hunting base and spend the night on. After spending three days there, due to extremely bad weather I was coming back to my side of the bay one evening with three full limits. I had been checked on the island and to me the Wardens were insane just to venture out into the bay in their Boston Whaler.

About two miles from the docks I came across two Wardens in their Whaler which was broken down. I bet that they were coming to check me again as their plane had checked to see if I was still on the island that morning. The law of the bay demanded that I give them a tow. You just don't leave anyone behind in a broken down boat, night approaching, wind blowing them off shore and tide carrying them out as well. So I tossed them a line. But about 200 yards from the dock I realized that I had three days bag limit of ducks and was allowed to only have two days in possession. Funny little technical thing in the law at the time, might still be there for all I know. So I cut the engines and asked them if they intended to check me when we got to the docks. Yes was the response. What a A-hole I said. Saved you from possible death, certain hairy night or at least few hours adrift at dark. So after five minutes the older one decided he did not care what I had in my boat but did warn me that they would pass the word that if any game warden ever came across me again that they would check me with a fine toothed comb. Fair enough I thought. But it would have made me mad as heck if after rescuing them they had written me up for that minor technical violation. They kept their word in both respects and every time after that that I was checked they went over me and my equipment with no limit of attention. Never caught me with anything but they sure did try.

So count your blessings if you have not been checked. Worse to me is that the Wardens later took the proactive position that if duck hunting and there was bait within a mile of your spot, that in their opinion altered the ducks flight path you could be written up for it. Even if it was three blinds away from you and you had no knowledge of it. A completely unreasonable standard I thought.

Sorry jOe, local store. 67galaxie will recognize it...Geo

Stan and I share the same great State and I don't know how he has hunted as much as he does and missed the joy of encounters with Georgia Game and Fish wardens. Sure, they are usually polite; maybe even overly, condescendingly, smarmily, and maybe a little disingenuously polite.

But don't ever forget that they are cops first and always. They don't trust you and presume you must be guilty of something or you wouldn't bother with hunting at all. Respect their authority, but don't make the mistake of thinking that they are just one of the guys.

On the other hand, maybe I just don't have an "honest face"???...Geo

Game wardens are overly polite because they're encountering unknown armed people and are generally outnumbered 100:1. Plus, the are, for the most part, investigating misdemeanor cases.

But they will write you up if you're in violation. Which is what they get paid to do. Cases are few and far between for game wardens around here. "Not wearing blaze orange," "hunting/fishing w/o a license," etc. I've never seen an over-bearing game warden.

I'm very familiar with the GW culture. They're easy to avoid if you don't break the law. Not too much to ask, IMO.

I'm pretty well known in the Burke, Screven and Jenkins county areas, having farmed here all my life, and actually farm in three different counties. I know almost all the game wardens in these counties, and make it a point to speak and shoot the breeze when I have a chance. I think my reputation of not being too much of an outlaw helps. I have been sitting under one of my pivots in a blind shooting doves and had the warden drive by, see my blind, hit the brakes and stop. I stood up and waved to him and he waved back and drove on. This is a warden that has a reputation for being very hard-nosed, but he and I get along well.

One of the times I was checked was opening day afternoon of '03. We had just gotten back from shooting doves in Argentina on Thursday, and the season opened here on Saturday. I went to a local shoot in Screven Co. and drew a stand really close to the parking area. We had been shooting about an hour when the local warden drove into the parking area. He headed straight toward me. I sat right there and he walked up, asked if my 687 SP II was plugged, and we both laughed. He asked if I was alright. I asked what he meant. He said he meant .. did I have my license and all. I reached for my wallet pocket, realized I didn't even have my wallet with me, and told him so. He looked at me sternly and said that normally he takes a man's drivers license and keeps it until he provides him proof of having a hunting license, but said he couldn't even take that from me! He paused a moment, pointed his finger at me and told me that the next time he saw me I'd better have it on me. I promised I would, apologized, and that was that. No charges.

Moral ....... keep your friends close, ........ and your enemies closer. Just kidding, I do NOT consider them my enemies.

SRH

i think game wardens are the most dishonorable profession on earth. i have gone into this before and won't rant this morning. i have had a few game warden friends, but they were the exception to the rule. i would rather be in a room full of anti-gun lawyers than game wardens.

Why do you have this unreasonable prejudice against game wardens, Marc? "Most dishonorable profession on earth?" That's kinda hysterical, I think. Probably based on the fact you got a ticket at one time in your life.

Over 30 years ago I was hunting a dove field with my 12 year-old stepson when Sidney Jones, a SC game warden came out in the field and asked for our licenses. I handed my license and he told us they had been watching the field for about two weeks and bait was found in the field less than 10 days prior. It was not evident when we shot. "Mr., this field was baited wthin the proscribed period. Makes no difference if you knew it or not". (I didn't) "Continue shooting until you both limit. Come out when you finish and pick up your licenses." We got the limit and he offered a $50 bond forteiture for me, nothing for the boy, or he'd write us up a Federal ticket to appear before the US magistrate. I paid the $50 and restrained from asking him "When can we do this again?" He let us keep the doves. Some of the hunters insisted on a Federal ticket which wasn't a smart choice as they discovered later.
Years earlier, Ronnie and I were harvesting oysters in public beds near Hilton Head. We came out with a bushel of fine oysters and were met by Dick, a SC warden.
"May I see your drivers's licenses? " "Sir, these beds are for residents of SC only. The fine is $25 each." We had about $5 between us. I rode back to Savannah, got the cash, returned and he then let Ronnie free who had been in the back of his car. This was over 40 years ago and Dick is a friend and we still laugh about the oysters even though the sumbitch took the oysters home and ate them. Ignorance of the law was no excuse, but he could have saved us some muddy work if he'd come out earler.

Gil

In reading the various stories of people's less than satisfactory run ins with wardens, I am reminded of all the various encounters I have had with them also.

Very few of them have been good.

I grew up on the Eastern Shore of Md and I've never had a friendly encounter with a GW or for that matter a Md Marine Police. Every encounter starts off with a presumption of guilt. They "know" you've done something, they just haven't figured out what yet...Is there some clause in the universal GW hand book that says they have to treat everybody they deal with with utter suspicion?

A couple of years ago, after a day of hunting off the coast of Maine for sea duck, we were met at the dock by a Maine GW. We were just getting the trailer backed into the water when he came running down to the water's edge and made a quick lap of the exterior of the boat while looking in and studying everything that could be seen with the naked eye. Upon seeing our boxes of Hevi Shot, he pronounced us to be "rich hunters as those were expensive shells". He also remarked on the hand carved decoys as they must have been expensive also? (all of which were carved by me, not bought)

Here in Vt, I have to admit my experiences with wardens have been a little bit better as to demeanor, but the presumption of guilt is still there.

Serious question for those of you with legal experience, is there any other section of US law, state or Federal that holds that the citizen is presumed guilty until proven otherwise?

Mergus

There is no presumption of guilt except in your mind. I see nothing wrong with what the MD game warden did, he didn't violate any of your rights by looking at what was in plain view in your boat. Same with a traffic stop; nothing wrong with the cop looking inside your car at what's in plain view.

You were presumed innocent, which is why he didn't toss your boat. Had he seen anything untoward, then the presumption of wrong doing begins.

See nothing wrong with obeying game laws and enforcing these laws. If you're going to hunt, you need to be familiar with the laws...same with speeding or violating traffic laws. Nor do I see a LEO seeking approval for enforcing laws and regulations. I was a LEO for 33 years and never asked permission to enforce laws.

The presumption of innocence applies only to the Courts. LEO's aren't part of the judicial system. They are entitled to presume someone guilty. Otherwise, there'd be no arrest. Gil

I carry bismuth reloads in my pockets to keep them warm during duck hunting. If an officer had doubt of what's in those shells, I'd offer one with permission to open it and see for himself; no big deal. (I've never met a fish warden or game officer other than socially.)

I have developed a great intolerance to game wardens. I have worked as a professional guide for many years and by definition this occupation is always guilty. Too many stories to tell and some with very upsetting results. But I have learned a lot about search and sesure when I'm stopped I lock all doors and I'if asked to open them hand the warden the keys That stops about 90% of the illegal searches

opening day we were checked for licence and steel shot shells.in california the warden has a high tech gizmo,he reads the shell, marked steel!who would have thought it.King you have to be hunting to run into a warden,hanging out in the basement wont attract most of them.

I was stopped on opening day by a Kansas two game warden team just as I was loading up to go home. They asked to see my gun, shells, and license. They noted the Bismuth staamps on my hulls and really liked my SLE.

They were professional and really nice, offering some advice on possible locations for the next day.

Over the years I have never had a bad encounter with game wardens, nor I have I with police for that matter, though I know others have not been as lucky.

The game warden may not know it and you do not know it, but handing him the keys is consent to search.

Interesting. Not sure if the law reads that way in Canada. I will check into that

If you tell a game warden you don't consent to a search and he threatens to break a window to gain entry and then you can hand him the keys but make it clear that you don't consent and the search is at his peril over your objection, handing the keys in that situation can't be construed as a valid consent. I'd never consent to a search of house, car or "what's in the pocket." A LEO can pat down for weapons for officer safety, but beyond that, no cigar unless you are actually under arrest. Of course there have been dishonest LEO's who will say there was a consent whether there was one or not. Unless there's a video or non-interested credible witness, I can predict who the judge is going to believe in a suppresion hearing in which there is no right to a jury.

Well, you're throwing a lot more into it, GLS,than a simple request and a search...threats to break windows and all. Consent cannot be forced by threat: that's not consent and will result in an illegal search. Based on the totality of circumstances in your post.

If a LEO has probable cause, he doesn't need consent, although he might well ask for it. Consent negates all later claims of an illegal search.

I'm torn a bit here. I'm generally happy to see somebody keeping track of things as I interpret this as somebody protecting the resource. I have, however, dealt w/a fairly unpleasant individual a few years ago who actually asked me if my double was "plugged" (to be fair, everybody else in the group was using repeaters and we were many, and rather large!). On another occasion, my 10 double was completely soaked in a rainstorm while hunting waterfowl and I had left the slip partly unzipped to minimise any potential for rusting as we motored back to the dock. The warden waiting for us there (where he always is at this particular lake) threatened to cite me for travelling under power with an unsecured gun(!). To his credit, after I explained my reasoning, and after much grumbling...he didn't. It's surely a tough and dangerous job (I was living in Wyoming in the early 80s when a warden there was shot and, I believe, ...partially eaten!)

Well, let's simplify:
"I want to search your car"
"No"
Never, ever consent but don't resist. A search afterwards does depend upon circumstances, but the fact that you have been hunting is not probable cause to search a vehicle. A timely "free air" search by a dog without entering a vehicle or contraband in plain view are other matters. Why would a person who has nothing to hide fail to consent? Aside from general principles under the 4th Amendment, once you consent, you don't get to specify or limit the extent of the search. For example, the Georgia State Patrol would profile types of cars on the interstates coming out of Florida and pull them over. After gaining consent, some would remove door panels, remove back seats, empty the contents of suitcases and more looking for drugs. Sometimes they found drugs, sometimes they didn't, but once there was consent, there was no complaining about the extent.

Would you hang in your basement with two blinds on your property in the finest duck hunting habitat in the county?

Consent can be withdrawn at any time. The person giving consent must be present during the search so he can withdraw consent. However, by that time, the LEOs almost always have seen enough PC to get a warrant. Which a smart one will do.

Also, the profiling search for drug dealers was declared unconstitutional several years back. It was developed by DEA agents in Atlanta. Cars with rental FL plates, with two people in the car of S. American appearance, and driving strictly by or below the speed limit were profiled. They confiscated a lot of money and cocaine until profiling in general was declared unconstitutional.

The reason consent was not withdrawn is because most of the drivers were from Columbia and probably didn't know they had the right to refuse...if they had a right to refuse. For a long time, the profile was solid PC,and no consent was needed.

Hunting is not PC to search your car, but it is PC to check your license and your gun.

I wouldn't say "Never, ever consent." If you've got nothing to hide, why not consent? On principal? I'd ask, "For what reason?" just for a professional curiosity's sake. You'll likely save your self some time by consenting and possibly a traffic ticket for whatever the cop stopped you for in the first place.

There is a vast and strongly held belief around here that a game warden has greater powers of search than any other LEO. From what you say, Gil, that must not be the case.(?)

SRH

It's not the case at all. Game wardens have the same powers of arrest and search and seizure as any LEO, which are granted and limited by 4th Amendment.

If the officer asks for permission to search, I would object. it is an intrusion and not a courtesy of him to ask and I would be respectful in replying. By then, he's made up his mind to ticket if he wants to search. Often the traffic stop is a pretextual to search and you are going to get a ticket regardless. It supports the pretext or reason he stopped. And yes, it's the principle. As for "if you have nothing to hide, why not consent." Stop thinking like a cop who wants to search someone's car.
Trooper Benji was in the papers often back in the Operation Pipeline days. I'd heard that a contract was placed on his head by the drug lords back in the day.

I do my best not to be an outlaw. I am not worried about anything in my vehicle or boat. Still I would never give my permission for a game warden to search either. Like it or not there are some bad ones out there.

I think I've been summonsed once in about 60 years of steady huntin' and fishin'. That was for frog gigging at night on the Withlacoochee River in my canoe without the little red and green lights. I did nothing to antagonize the Officer, but he'd been called by someone and must have felt he had to do something.

I was using two Q-beams and was probably lit up better than an airplane. The river is so small and rocky here there's no problem with boat traffic. I took it to the Judge and he agreed it was silly and asked if I thought a $5.00 bond forfeiture would be about right...Geo

If I were a cop I would have to have a good reason for searching your car. Not PC, but a good reason. I wouldn't waste my time and yours by searching vehicles at random.

But if you said "No," I'd thank you and walk away. I did this for a long time and know when it's time to walk away, but in all honesty, I might remember your face and tag number.

I believe in getting along, which is why I'd say "OK." And if I as a cop searched your car with your consent and found nothing, I'd also remember your face and tag number. But in a good context.

So, if a game warden does not need your consent to search your vehicle if he has probable cause, and he asks for permission, isn't that the equivalent of saying to you "I do not have probable cause, but I just want to see if you're gullible enough to go along, and maybe I'll find something illegal"?

SRH

No, it has to do with the defense of the search in court. Nothing is better (from the game warden's pov) than consent. Consent makes a search solid and one that can't be challenged in court. The only issue then being if the consent was given legally and willingly.

If he has Probable Cause, he can search without a warrant (usually) due to "exigent circumstances." Which means he couldn't get a warrant before you moved the vehicle. Same as looking for drugs, but the searching officer MUST have articulateable probable cause. Such as he sees contraband in your vehicle or too many ducks in your boat.

A warrantless search (without consent) is the most difficult to defend. But if the officer knows what he's doing and goes by the law, such a search will pass. Refusal to permit a consent search cannot add to probable cause...exercise of a right can't add to a motive for taking a right away.

As I said before, cops and I assume game wardens don't go about searching cars with or without consent randomly. Takes time, adds to paperwork, and just isn't generally done without some reason. If something is found on an warrantless search without consent, that reason will be tested in court. And it better be good.

There are numerous books written on Search and Seizure, and obviously the cans and can'ts cannot be explained by a few posts or by me, who isn't a lawyer.

Okay, now the officer tells you to step away from your vehicle, that he has probable cause to search it, and intends to. Do you have the right to know what that probable cause is? Can he legally proceed to search without telling you what his probable cause is?

SRH

Yes, he must only explain his PC only to the court when under oath who will then explain it to you, hopefully through your attorney.

I have been hunting over five decades. Times have changed and Game Wardens with them. When I lived in MD I was checked over a hundred times with three citations, no convictions. To be fair only one was BS and the others were marginal. It got so bad that I changed counties I hunted in for most of one season. It gets old being checked two or three times a day while hunting. I have no personal problems with Wardens or searches these days. Like every other group there are great guys and AHoles in every group.

In fact I hunted with a game warden for five years until he was forced to stop hunting. A single violation would have cost him his job and at least one person who he had arrested did in fact bait fields we hunted. They even called in the Federal wardens on us once. We had found the bait and he was posting the filed for bait when they drove up. It was funny to watch the turf war between the state and federal guys.

Since I moved to the mid west I have been checked perhaps three times total. Still no citations and no convictions. My son a I were Checked in Ohio Dove hunting and it took two minutes flat with zero issues. I did explain to my son that being totally legal makes any contact with a Police officer or Game Warden a cake walk.

Because of the mobility of cars, the rules for searching vehicles are less restrictive than searching a residence. That doesn't mean anything goes. There are times when a search warrant is required and probable cause must exist for the issuance of probable cause. Roadside stops create issues which don't necessarily mean the right ot search, warrantless, exists in all cases. However, if the driver or car occupant can be arrested, a search incident to arrest may exist. For instance, DUI. If another licensed person is at the scene, typically a non-intoxicated passenger, the car can be driven away without a search if the car is in safe, drivable condition. A lone driver dui may justify a warrantless Inventory search where the car is to be towed to a holding compound. Inventory searches are permissible to forestall allegatrons of valuable items being stolen from the car while in police custody. Warrantless searches of a vehicle are permissble when the officer has probable cause to believe that a crime was committed by an occupant or drlver. For instance, a speeding car is stopped. A cloud of sweet smelling smoke engulfs the officer when a window is rolled down. The officer is familiar with the smell of marijuana. He can then search the car for marijuana and if he finds any marijuana or over the limit ducks, any found contraband is admissible evidence.
A judge gets to determine the credibilty of the reason for arrest, however. Another justifiable search: Game Warden sees more ducks fall out of the sky than a limit or hears an unplugged gun. He sees the party go to a vehicle and put something in the trunk. No ducks are visible at the car. He has probable cause to search the car because he has probable cause to believe there was a game violation. If you are hunting, as Gene has said, a game warden is permitted to ask for and check your license and gun. The worse thing one can do in some jurisdictions is to be caught lying about a material fact to a leo acting in the performance of his duties. This sometimes can be a felony under both Federal and some state laws. Lying to cover up what would be a misdemeanor offense game violation can in some cases imperil your 2nd amendment right to have a gun.

Thanks for those explanations. If I am ever subject to search I intend to be innocent of wrongdoing, and just wanted to clearly understand my constitutional rights in these cases. Just because I have never been subjected to an overbearing GW doesn't mean I never will.

I guess my record of never having been checked while duck hunting really is pretty amazing, seeing as how I have hunted ducks in several states for the last 18-20 years (hope to add TN to that list Tues. morning).

SRH

Genalang, I've never hunted in Georgia and can't claim know what it's like to deal with Law Enforcement of any type there, but I can tell you, for a fact, that the Md DNR is an adversarial entity to hunters.

Mergus

I have gotten one warning ticket in Georgia and I have hunted for 65 years or so. Bobby

The thread has been a revelation to me. It's one thing to know parts of the law and another knowing all of it in these circumstances. Thank god for our lawyers.

Likewise, I've never hunted in MD. They may be considered adversarial to hunters here, but to someone obeying the laws, I don't see how. They don't write up those not guilty of breaking a game law.

In Chicago, cops are seen as adversarial to gang members because they won't let them do what they want to. Is this the same sort of adversarial relationship you're talking about?

I see our resident atheist anti-gun Troll still uses a lower case "g" when he refers to God. But for some reason, things are different when he refers to Mohammed:



Of course, if King had his way, lead shot would be banned, and there would be no reason to check shells:

Thanking God for lawyers is like thanking pedophiles for slowing down in school zones.

When cops get in trouble their first phone call isn't to their pastor.

When cops get in trouble, it's something serious and they need a lawyer. Unlike many here who feel they're hassled for being required to follow rules that would result in a citation.

No disrespect to lawyers on the board, of course. I have known many lawyers and only a few of them were dirty. Knew one cop who was dirty and he went to jail. Cops and lawyers are adversarial, but that's how the system works. Cops and citizens should not be adversarial, except by those who don't obey laws. Then it's a cop/GW's job to bring them in.

Game Wardens, in MD, are not a hunters or fisherman's friend. Not even close to it. When I lived there, they had a lot of new young ones who thought that they were policemen, with police powers, when they are game wardens, not real cops. MD hires their State Policemen to a far higher standard than their Game Wardens. MD is a very Liberal state with most of the top people firmly in a liberal mindset of I know best attitude about everything and the game wardens reflect this.

Part of the problem is numbers. Thirty years ago they started expanding the force from about fifty to five times that now. But at the same time the numbers hunters has crashed. There were 262 Wardens for the state which has 23 counties and the city of Baltimore to police. So figure 10 working Wardens per county. Now most counties are less than thirty miles square. They trip over each other and you get multiple people doing the same things. I've been checked three times, in a single day, by three different game wardens while quail hunting. Any chance to write up a citation, for even the most trivial thing has to be done by them because their is nothing to do and they need to justify their time. The same applies for their regulation of fishing. Just over whelming numbers worry the heck out of people. They are not well loved or even that respected by those who have frequent contact with them.

My contact with game wardens has taken me to more than a dozen states hunting and fishing. Never had a single problem with them other than the ones in MD. None are like the MD ones. I am sure that there are some who are out there, but all the ones I have encountered are regular guys doing a job. It is a mindset that they get from the top.

"Possum Police"...Geo

Game Wardens in GA have police powers. Sounds like MD has some badge-heavy wardens. But the math quoted above is off...probably 25% of the total is riding a desk in Baltimore.

Game wardens aren't hunters' friends. And aren't supposed to be. Hunters certainly are not GW's friends, if the prevailing feelings in this thread are correct. So I'm a bit surprised that MD hunters expect friendship from a group they hold in such contempt. I've yet to read here about someone here getting a ticket on a bum rap. But maybe I missed it.

Respect is a two-way street.

king my property is in a elk migration area,i have had doubts weather you are a gun owner and hunter.

They have always been gentlemen to me. Cops first but gentlemen. Me not knowing I had to have the $5.50 migratory bird thingy cost me $365.00 on a duck hunt though. Had the hunting license, wma and stamp but not that. Not his fault but Judge Rooney Bowen lll gets the finger for yelling at me with the wrong information

Migratory Bird Thingy (H.I.P. Stamp) is free. Writing tickets on that is BS...Geo

He did say he was Duck Hunting, since when did the duck stamp become free. I have had my permanent senior hunting license in the state of TN for a number of years now which is good for virtually anything except management areas or Waterfowl. Still have to "Buy" the Federal stamp for them. If the rules have changed on this I am totally unaware of it.

HIP is not a duck stamp. It is a free thing that is used to survey Migratory bird hunters including Woodcock hunters.

You guys make me feel happy and grateful to be living in Wyoming.

He said he had the duck stamp. I think he's saying he got a $365 ticket for not having the H.I.P...Geo

along with the GW attitudes

regulations are getting to the point that its almost impossible not to miss something, one more reason recruiting new hunters is slowing down

many years ago Patrick McManus wrote in one of his stories that there was a state he would not fish in without a lawyer present

That doesn't necessarily work. Gil

I have been on dove shoots where the only people over the limit were judges.

SRH

I've been duck hunting with the president of our hunting and fishing federation who couldn't be stopped from shooting over his limit. He lit his pipe by striking a match on the checkering of his shotgun. He wrote elegant columns and speeches about wildlife and conservation, loved dogs but once in the blind with him was enough for me.

Why is that King? Oh, let me guess... he didn't support and defend anti-gun politicians and gun control laws as you do.

King, years ago I hunted with a "great conservationist" here in the Texas Panhandle and experienced about the same thing. Once out of sight he couldn't have cared less what the limit was and even went to little effort to retrieve downed birds. Didn't take long for me to avoid going with him. At his funeral he was lauded for his great work in conservation and sportsmanship. Whew!

It's neither the stamp nor is it the hip. It is the waterfowl conservation license. $5.50.

Is that the GA state duck stamp?...Geo

When I bought the lifetime license I never looked back at all of those little "gotcha" add-ons.

Geo, you right about the Ga. lifetime license. Other than the annual HIP, no other "mother, may I" additionals. Gil

I think GA messed up with those lifetime licenses. They needed money so they had a fire sale on the various lifetime deals. I bought one for $90 and bought them for all my boys. The annual license with all the add on stuff amounts to about $65 per year. Now all the politician's new "add-on" fees don't apply. Likewise, the Game Department has less annual revenue to operate from license renewals. We don't even have a GW presently on my County, sniff sniff...Geo

I've got a GA Old Timer's license, free of charge and a Sportsman license. HIP included.

HIP must be procured annually regardless of Old Timer's License.
Annual application is a questionnaire of a handful of migratory species bagged the previous year. Does not include I-95 Snow Birds. Gil

I put a magnetic compass up against a factory loaded bismuth cartridge and nothing happened.

Joe, why would bismuth effect a compass?

http://www.chemicool.com/elements/bismuth.html