Anyone know if the Model 17 Remington can be "slam-fired" --- that is (for idiots only) where when the trigger is held back between shots the gun will fire each time the bolt is slammed forward. I notice that my vintage Model 37's will do this but the Model 17 Remington seems to have a disconnect preventing it. Thanks loads: 7/8 ouncers, that is. Chopperlump

What you are talking about above is not a "slam-fire". Guns like the Winchester model 12, 97 and some other oldies will fire again if the trigger is held back, as soon as the bolt is closed and locked. This is not a malfunction, it's a normal function of the design. A slam fire is a malfunction, as described in the following: "A slam fire is a rare premature firing, usually caused by out of spec ammo/primers, a dirty chamber, or malfunctioning firearm/firing pin. I have heard on several occasions folks stating rather routinely "there was a slam fire at the range today" or words to that effect. Seems that many things that are alledged to be slam fires are really not slam fires, like a double fire. (source, Google, typed in slam-fire)

Well, this won't be any help.

1924 model 17: Won't do it at all.

1928 Model 17: If you hold the trigger back and pump the gun it does not fire. When you release the trigger it does instantly. (interesting enough this is the only 17 I have with the Penderson patent on the barrel.

1939 Ithaca 37 20g: "slam fires" like all old Ithaca's and Model 12s.

Tim

Thanks, Tim. My Model 17 won't do it like an older Model 37. That pleases me because I've always thought the one defect in design on the Model 37 was a too-small trigger guard. When wearing gloves in cold weather, I have had a 37 go off prematurely when just pumping in that second shot (rarely needed, I hope). Chopperlump

Tim, by the way, my Model 17 does what your 1928 gun does: hold trigger back, pump action, and when yoou release the trigger, it fires! Not such a hot idea. I wonder if this is a design flaw or a part in need of replacement. My gun has only Browning's Patent date June 1915 on barrel. What about Ted's? Wonder if he will get in on this. Chopperlump

This seems to be a Browning design/feature, as it shows up commonly on Browning designed guns. The model 12 is not a Browning design, of course, but Winchester's designers used a lot of the Browning ideas on it, like the takedown method. This function is also from another time, when shooters were expected to be smart enough to not hold the trigger as they closed the bolt on a pump gun UNLESS they wanted to fire it again very quickly. Holding the trigger back while pumping the slide is about as bright as holding the trigger while cocking the hammer, on a hammer gun. You really need to be smarter than the gun. I rather expect Herb Parsons used this feature to his advantage when breaking 7 hand tossed clays with a Model 12 pump.
Nowadays, everyone seems to feel the need to be protected from every possible mistake, so disconnectors have been added to pumps, automatic safeties added to SxS, O/Us, even lever actions and hammer guns, fercrysakes! How long before we add automatic safeties to semi-automatics?

I'm not particularly concerned about these peculiarities but I do think the most dangerous is the system we mentioned where the gun fires when the trigger is released. I shot twice at a rabbit this year that might have been the results of this. Model 17s are very fast to cycle with a relatively short stroke, add gloves in the winter and it's possible in the heat of the moment. Of course the gun was already pointed at the target so the results were just pick'n more lead our of my hausenpheffer!

Tim, I don't believe the gun that fires when the trigger is released is normal. My guess is that it HAS a disconnector and something is wrong with it.

I thought of that, especially after finding out my third 17 which has a serial number in between the other two does not do it. I'm in the middle of a complete wood refurb on it to include a cool POW grip that follows the original checkering pattern. I'll just have to take a look at the trigger before it's all done.

Tim

Only pump gun I have is a Win .22 model 61 (smooth top hammerless). As a kid I would sometimes hold the trigger back when pumping it to get a fast second shot at dump rats. Can't say it was an effective practice but it was a litte extra fun at the time because my buddy's bolt gun couldn't do it. Apparently this was a very common feature with more than one manufacturer.

But this is not a slam fire. Slam fires are malfunctions as Jim Legg pointed out above. I have seen a few occur with tired old semi automatic shotguns and a few machineguns in need of cleaning or repair. Most others claiming this had their finger in the trigger guard and fired the shot by accident - a human error-most frequently on a Model 12.

Tim, keep me posted on the results of your looking into that trigger mechanism on the 17 that fires when trigger is released. Others will be interested as well. Thnks, Chopperlump

Mine is from 1922 and it will not "pump-fire".

I cycle it with the trigger held back and it doesn't fire. When I release the trigger I can hear it settle into the cocked position and then when I pull the trigger it will fire.

Rob

Most triggers with disconnestors have a main sear plus a secondary sear. When the action cycles with the trigger held back the secondary sear engages. When trigger is released it releases this secondary sear & hammer is then caught by the main sear, which is released upon puling the trigger. If the gun cocks normally when cycled without trigger being held, then the sear itself is not broken. Need to check why it is prevented from catching upon release of trigger, perhaps a build up of trash of some sort, or some other piece broken. Altogether a dangerous situation. Would much prefer no disconnector at all than one malfunctioning in this manner.

2 Piper solved the problem. Secondary sear was not engaging. I soaked the trigger assembly in gasoline overnight, brushed it out with a toothbrush, and voila! It now works. When gun is cycled with trigger held back snd then released, a little click is heard and movement takes place in the action slide release (on right front side of trigger guard). When trigger is then depressed, gun fires normally. Thanks a lot, 2-Piper! Chops

I know what my weekend project will be! Is this place great or what!

Thanks 2-Piper!

Thanks to Chops as well as I would have never looked had you not asked.

Tim

Tim, the issue seemed to be 60 years of accumulated dirt plus a spring that was a bit sluggish due to the accumulation. Once cleaned, the spring was rejuvenated. Email me if you have a tough time figuring out how to check it out. Chops

Just looked at my 17, and it must be dirty as well, since it seems to suffer the "fire at release" of trigger problem about every other time. The gun hasn't been used much of late, and I seem to remember that, at one time, the gun worked exactly as Rob described. My copy is coming up on some work, a headspace check of both barrels, better fitting of the recoil pad, and refinish of buttstock, and recutting of checkering-I would have added a strip and clean at any rate when I begin this, but, I 'gotta tell you Chops, I wouldn't use gasoline! I feel bad enough burning it at 3 bucks a gallon.
Ithacas have used several different designs over the years, but, I can't site them from memory. My Ultralight 16 (an odd bird in the Ithaca lineup) does NOT, that I can tell, have a disconnector, but, if I try to get it to fire by pumping the gun while holding the trigger, it won't dent the primer hard enough to fire the gun. I have tried it, several times. The 12 gauge Ithaca has a good functioning disconnect. And, I hate to say it, but the "creme de la creme" disconnect seems to be the unit installed on the lowly 500 Mossbergs-simple, positive, and idiot proof. Did I mention I own several? Idiot proof is good.
Best,
Ted