I am looking for reputable appraisers of an Old Churchill Shotgun, circa 1897 in North Carolina, preferably in the Piedmont-Triad area of the state. Any advice would be welcomed. Thanks!!

I live in Saxapahaw but don't consider myselfy an expert even though I own some English guns and have had many others.
Post some pics, no better experts than these guys on this forum.

Hello Lew Williams
and
WELCOME on your first posting

Yes, pictures would be most helpful here and you will get an
impartial appraisal with great peer pressure from this site

In order to post pictures you will need a web host like
Photobucket or Hunt101

Again, welcome
Mike

Welcome, Lew. I'll run your gun through my value system (value, not price and not an appraisal) if you will post a good description or, much better, a photo. I can tell you that if the gun is of the British Churchill (there are others), it will have a Brand Value level two (BV2). Only the four BV1 names will have higher value for the name on the gun.

Post that photo!!

DDA

Thanks folks for the warm welcome! I will post some pics. The gun room manager, Chris Cloke, at Churchill said he felt confident in that it was an E. J. Churchill and that it was made in 1897. He said it was unquestionable that it was made on a WC Scott action with the screw grip top lever type.

Ok, folks. Here are the pics! Let me know what you think!

http://s1096.photobucket.com/user/Sweetlew1/slideshow/

Surprised to see this is a non-ejector Churchill. Sweet looking, and of a matched pair as well. Wonder where the No. 2 gun might be-

Looks like it has ejectors to me from the pictures. You have a very nice Best gun. An early example of a London Best.
You can tell it has been well used but the engraving looks very well maintained.
As far as value a lot depends on several factors, how are the barrels and how well do they measure? Is it technically still in proof?
The wood, any cracks? I see the checkering is well worn but that can be repaired.
One thing that sets people off about value is the lump coming through the bottom and not stocked to the fences. But when this gun was built it was truly a Best gun.
Until the questions about the stock and barrels can be answered it is hard to place a value.
But the old girl has potential and hope you are someone invests in bringing her back to her glory.

Lew, your best bet may be to contact MacNab fine firearms or Deep River Sporting Clays. Either should be able to give you an appraised value on their letterhead.
Your pictures were very good and only a picture of the barrel flats was missed. Seeing the proof marks will be vital for someone to value the gun for you.
BTW the gun was built in 1897

Lew, having just purchased abroad a "Premier" quality E. J. Churchill sidelock gun that was completed in 1898 and bears serial number 978, which auction purchase followed consideration of a number of other period examples over many months, here and abroad, I would venture to say your earlier circa 1897 gun could be market-valued at approximately $4,000-5,500. I would add, however, that the value of the ownership of such an excellent antique gun from this quality maker, as this is, is inestimable, and that you should have no doubt that yours truly is a fine 'Golden Age' production. Moreover, although some among our fraternity will disagree vehemently with any sort or level of restoration efforts being performed, I would say otherwise and state that if conscientiously and not excessively restored by a true professional or professionals, the subject E. J. Churchill gun would increase in monetary value, as would the pride of ownership factor, which is too often overlooked as a substantial value.

I have seen comparatively higher denominated numbers online but do not personally perceive them as practicable or realistic when compared to actual market prices garnered in the world of the auction where I usually reside and do business. I base the above opinion entirely on the several photographs viewed with attention to the overall condition and according to certain specific areas I always first look at, but without knowing other basic considerations, such as barrel condition foremost, about lock-up, ejector condition, etc. and the answers to a host of other questions I have initially when considering a given piece to add to my collection. The fact that your gun is an "antique firearm," or "any firearm manufactured in or before 1898" (or pre-1 January 1899), as that legal term is defined in the federal statutes governing the disposition of the firearm (i.e. modern), curio & relic firearm and antique firearm in the U.S., adds a premium to the monetary value.

It is remarked that your gun's standing breech and what can be seen of the water-table appear clean, as do the metal surfaces elsewhere. The engraving appears 'unwashed' and reasonably sharp. The wood, both fore and aft, although understandably worn, especially where often handled, is nicely grained and the grain flows in the right direction for strength and durability. The wood appears eminently restorable and the fine chequering should be re-cut, but only if this refinishing / refurbishing is done by a recognized professional (e.g. Abe Chaber, Paul Hodgins, James Flynn, etc.). We all have our personal preferences for professional quality mechanical work that needs to be done and mine is Kirk Merrington, who, for example, does all my barrel work. The idea is to restore the antique gun sensibly and sensitively and not try to achieve an 'as new' look, which actually detracts from the 'value' and expected appearance of the gun. To me, the definition of value is that perceived by the owner, or the price willingly paid by a buyer of a gun at time of purchase.

Churchill guns were and are to-day top-tier guns, and yours is no exception; in fact, it is a fine example of a high quality E. J. Churchill gun finished during the maker's early period. These early period works are highly desirable but usable collectibles and are exceedingly few in terms of surviving examples. Personally, unless you are thinking of selling this gun, I would have the gun checked by a reputable and knowledgeable gunsmith, and if sound, would acquire proper ammunition (e.g. RST, Polywad, etc.) and shoot the gun. Even though mainly a collector of antique guns only, I adhere to the adage to enjoy today what I 'have' before those things to be enjoyed ineluctably become what I 'had' to enjoy. Please enjoy your antique gun to the fullest extent, whether afield or at the gun club; there is no better enjoyment to be had for the antique gun owner.


Regards,

Edwardian

I looked through the photos until photo bucket overloaded on ads and quit displaying photos (24/36). I respectfully disagree slightly with some of the foregoing as follows.

Churchill is a Brand Value level two (BV2) name.

The gun appears to me to be an "A" grade BLE which is Original Quality grade two (OQ2). The back action locks, through lump, NSTTF, and third fastener design don't usually go with best work SLE's; this gun is from 1898, not 1889, and is a few years behind best SLE fashion.

The Current Condition level strikes me as level six (CC6 - shootable, but needs minor repairs and refurbishing).

BV2-OQ2-CC6 = $4,652.

Questions?

DDA

"Rocketman," your mathematical formulations have been a source of amazement and interest for some time. Would that it is possible to reduce what is an emotive decision to the product of insensate numbers. I think the closest one can come to such reduction is the concept of 'utility' as often used in labor economics courses, which was also a subject of personal fascination at university. The concept asserts that a rational or reasonable person can be persuaded to do something, or not, based on the degree and effect of monetary persuasion on a so-called reasonable man.

An example: Would I prefer to earn another several hour's overtime pay or take the new blond co-worker to an evening concert in lieu of earning more money by working the available overtime, which selection process is overlaid with my company's desire to understand and thereby formulate what level of persuasion would cause me to choose either scenario, or define for management the 'utility' of the choices presented that will tip my decision one way or the other. If successfully developed for management, this formula would allow them to control employee work behavior, and in this example, employee availability and desire for overtime work. In other words, how much more per hour would management need to pay me to select work over a date with an attractive blond? After much diligent research on 'utility,' what we determined is that whenever the emotive factor was mixed with our sterile, lifeless though earnest mathematical calculations, we produced no consistent results, or those that were, for all intents and purposes, rather meaningless and inapplicable to reliably prognosticating actual or future events. I suppose we could have employed some known statistical theories to predict likely outcomes, but the class ended and the lot of us dispersed to carry on other endeavors, elsewhere.

Here we have an antique E. J. Churchill gun in need of some sensitive restoration due to normal and expected wear, although it is nonetheless attractive to me and surely others also. Let us presume the gun is on offer, and we will further posit that we have seen an antique Holland & Holland, of similar condition and built on the Scott action, also on offer. No price is given for either, but from experience or after considering outside advice, it is thought their respective value is close to the same.

Which do I prefer, or do I not prefer one over the other, or perhaps do not care for either gun? If I decide I must choose between them, I proceed to look for flaws and attributes possessed by each and decide which are important to me and will thus become eventually determinative. These choices are in essence emotive in nature and not really quantitative, or would be unless all interested parties possessed equal emotions and would then take the same emotive-based decisions.

Value is in the eyes of the beholder. What I would pay for a gun is likely not the same as others would pay. Historically, I have done this many times, in order to secure the object of my desire and deny it to others, even when I could have paid much less if I had chosen to simply take my chances. So what shall we do in reasonably determining a monetary value, say, with so many emotional variables involved? Well, we have the earlier suggested value numbers, based subjectively on recent experience and personal reaction to a particular gun, as well as the admixture of objective observations concerning the gun.

My market value estimate, if memory serves, was $4,000-5,500. You derived your $4,652 figure by complex calculation. The midpoint ($4,000 + $5,500 = $9,500 / 2 = $4,750) for my value range is $4,750, which is plus some $100 when compared to the aforementioned $4,652 product; a negligible difference. Two very different approaches have yielded nearly the same result. Most interesting and even perhaps intriguing.


Regards,

Edwardian

I've run some comparison tests on Rocketman's formula against no reserve auctions listed on Gunbroker, hey I'm retired ok so I have a lot of time on my hands, and his formulas is either dead on or real close.

Not having a lot of experience in guns and only having limited knowledge of economic theorems (although I am highly analytical due to my extensive math background), I honestly do not know what your acronyms mean and am having difficulty finding what they mean on the internet.

Lew,
Rocketman developed the system and acronyms.
BV= Brand Value
OQ= Original quality level of the gun
CC= Current Condition

his system takes these factors in to account to track market value.

Nice gun....I really like the Churchill scroll.

Thanks, Edwardian, trelbig, and SKB.

Lew, the value system is used mostly on this site since it was developed primarily for the guns most of interest to this site. The data used is auction numbers - pretty close to a pure market. Since this is not intended to represent a "price" (amount agreed to by a willing buyer and willing seller), it does not pose any accuracy level. It was developed to "jump start" understanding of market value of Brit/Continental SXS guns from 1890ish to 1960ish. The definitions are intentionally simplified - no need to overthink it. There are five layers of BV level based charts, each with nine OQ grades vs nine CC levels; 405 pigeon holes.

Edwardian is ultimately correct in how one must decide on a willing buyer offer. However, my system will give you an objective starting point relative to the market. While never meant to supplant experience based intuition, it does offer a framework for information organization. That Edwardian's intuition and my system are very close should not be a surprise, rather mutual confirmation (same answer from two different methods).


Questions?

DDA

Lew,

If you'd have posted a month ago, I'd have suggested driving down to Sanford for the Southern SxS Classic. Lots of knowledgeable vendors and sellers, some even from England, who would be qualified to handle the gun in person and opine.

I think the online appraisals you'll get here are just as good as what you will find locally in central NC. Perhaps Cherry's Guns in Greensboro would be willing to give you an appraisal, and while they have a lot of old guns, they are not fine SxS specialists.

Looks all the world like another one of Messers Webley and Scott's guns . What would the trade have done without them !

Well.... W.W. Greener would've picked up the slack. :-)

I doubt that .Greener did not make sidelocks and the Fasil Princip action was to distinctive to be adapted to others requirements not to mention to out dated .

I just cannot fathom that W. & C. Scott & Sons and AA Brown & Sons could produce so many guns for the trade at stratospheric levels of craftsmanship plus produce their own guns.

Greener did not make sidelocks?? Then who made them for them? They also produced basic box locks as well. The Empire grade Greener sure looks a lot like a boxlock to me and very unlike a FP or Unique "G" actions gun. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Boxlock:
https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/22751/lot/134/

Sidelock:
http://jamesdjulia.com/item/lot-1345-w-w-greener-side-lock-ejector-l60-grade-game-gun-35885/

Greener did not produce sidelocks in quantity , their Empire A&D was a late comer but stuck with the cross bolt .We wont talk about the the later Empire guns with the cocking main spring design . Fact was Webley and Scott made more guns for the trade than I would say any other maker .

No argument from me when it comes to W&C Scott and the later W&S being the champions of the English gun trade. They were prolific, no doubt about it. I just thought it odd that you'd say Greener did not make a sidelock or boxlock, a guy with your expertise surely knows they did in fact manufacture both along with with The Facile P and the Unique.
I just suggested that if there was no W&C or W&S, Greeners was fully capable of picking up the slack. They had the factory, machinery, design talent, work force and skills to make anything the trade wanted, that too is a fact.