In my opinion, in the near future, Turkey will filling the position of Spain in the world of fine guns. Akus (maker of the Kimber Valier, Kimber Marias, S&W Elite, Dickinson, etc), the best of the gun manufacturers in Turkey, is getting better and better. They are currently imported to the U.S. by Dickinson Arms in CA. I follow them on Facebook and Instagram and though I would share some of the recent photos they've posted. Enjoy!

Adam

Set of 3 20ga "Estate" models with killer exhibition grade Turkish walnut.


Prestige Sidelock with gold accent


More "Estate" models in various scroll patterns.


Full View of the gun above.


15,000 round test for this "Prestige" sidelock


2-barrel (20ga/28ga) set "Estate" boxlock (excuse me... trigger plate) that's been fitted with false sideplates and engraved in the #10 pattern


Another sideplated gun with different engraving.


Most sideplated guns.


Prestige sidelock


Estate boxlock

I thought this was a double rifle at first, due to the bolstered action.


Prestige Sidelock


In the field


Ready for shipping.


Beautiful engraving.


They even offer bulino game scene engraving.


Estate boxlock


I really like the engraving on this o/u but Im not crazy about the stock carvings... (although the quality is very good).


Prestige Sidelock


In the white.

Nice bag of European woodcock with a Prestige Sidelock




Prestige sidelocks of #10 engraving.


Estate


Boss style engraving for this "Royal" O/U sidelock

Very nice Adam.

Thank you for taking the time to post those pictures.

Best,

Mike

Thank you for posting the pics Adam---quite impressive, particularly those 3 Estates in the 1st pic with the exhibition quality wood. Equally impressive is their lifetime warranty that includes return shipping from their factory authorized service center in Coquille, OR.

Thanks for sharing the pictures Adam. You have a great eye for beauty and quality in shotguns.

If I ever get over the disappointment I have with the Dickinson I bought without testing the gorilla triggers it came with, I may investigate more of the AKUS offerings...Geo

WOW!!! Look at that wood!!!

Agree with you they seem capable of building some very nice guns. Unfortunately their low end guns have stigmatized them and they will have the same problem Spanish guns do even when great quality, that is they don't hold their value for resale.

They may offer some great value for quality at a lower price point, but I would only buy to hunt knowing resale later would be at a disadvantage

That Estate double, with the rounded body looks like it would be very attractive with two triggers which I understand they offer it in. A 28/ .410 combo in 30" barrels would make a small bore to shoot early and often.

Very nice stuff indeed!

In airgun design and manufacture Turkish firms offer innovation as well as low cost and are surging ahead. In smoothbore design they are doing it the Spanish way of the 1980s. Traditional design at low prices directed to a shrinking client base.

Adam, you mentioned the Kimber Valier. Although they're nice-looking guns, I know that the Ruffed Grouse Society bought a bunch of them and had trouble moving them. That's a gun that's been around for some time. Maybe we should start a thread and solicit opinions from those who've owned the guns.

Thanks for the pictures Adam. Bobby

Watch the sale section....Adam will be selling one shortly.

I think the Valier has been dormant for a long time..Very complicated story there...It was a nice gun, I had one on loan for a while, never could quite develop any feeling for it...

I don't know if it's as simple as that OC. I don't think the traditional low end American gun industry held back Parker, Fox, Lefever etc. Good quality usually ultimately gets recognized in the market place. I remember when Japan made crap cars and "MADE IN JAPAN" was shorthand for other crappy products. Hasn't been like that for a long time. It will depend on whether the Turks get serious about quality or choose to exploit the lower end only.

Perugini & Visini purchased, one time only, Qty 10 AKUS barreled actions in the white in 2013 and completed in Italy. I purchased a 20Ga, 30", semi beavertail, prince of wales grip, with interchangeable chokes, and very nice Turkish walnut. The overall workmanship is excellent. My P&V model is similar to the ARKUS Estate Lux SXS. I shoot sporting clays and 5 stand - the 7 1/4 lbs works great for me.

Webley and Scott shotguns and airguns are made in turkey, and have been for quite a while now. A friend in the club bought a small bore yildiz or something like that for his daughter to shoot clays. It was not a good purchase, and did give trouble. Thats not to say the turks cannot make good quality guns.

Yeah it's a lot like watching a comercial for Burger King. The burger looks so good on TV but the one you get at the drive thru sucks.
I do agree that The Dickinsons are somewhat nice and I am budgeting a 410 hopefully in the next year.
Hey Adam, maybe you need one in 28 gauge and sell me that 100 Garbi of yours.

Y'all are underestimating the Yildiz guns. Sure, they're inexpensive guns, and no one expects super high quality from a $489 gun, but take a Yildiz Elegante 4 apart and you will be amazed at the innards. My friends and I have three of them. I have shot mine a lot more than they have theirs, but none of them have ever given a problem. We lightened the trigger pulls on them, but that's it.

Not everybody wants, or has a use for, a sub-$500 double gun. But, some of us can enjoy them for what they are ....... reliable, weather resistant guns that you don't have to fret over.

I agree with Adam. The AKUS guns are getting better and better. I cannot imagine getting rid of my 30" Dickinson .410. I can envision, however, a higher grade 32" 20 gauge at some time.

SRH

I would sooner buy a russian baikal than one of the aluminium actioned yildiz guns. Having owned one before, and knowing plenty of people with them (farmers mainly, who don't baby their guns) , they are very tough and good value for money.

Have you ever owned an "aluminium (sp.) actioned yildiz gun" ?

The alloy receiver is lightweight ...... that, combined with the man-sized buttstock and the 28" barrels, puts the weight where it should be on a little gun like the Elegante 4 ..... on each end, and not in the middle. This gives it much better than expected handling characteristics. Rocketman spun mine and said it was almost identical to a 12 bore English game gun.

SRH

So far, the Dickenson warranty seems very good. After only a few hundred rounds, my 12 gauge Dickinson SxS (Cabela's)broke a trigger part. Their west coast warranty facility quickly repaired the gun at zero cost.

Jerry Goldstein

No, thankfully i don't have to as i have an english and an irish 12 bore game gun. I don't doubt the yildiz are good, but my one and only experience with them was bad. First impressions last.

Adam, are these catalog pictures or your own?

Pretty wood but am I the only one questioning grain layout through the wrists in some of those photos...

These photos we taken from Akus's social media pages (Facebook and Instagram).



Stan, I agree... a nice long barreled small bore sounds good. But I think I would save the money on the engraving and spring for their exhibition grade Turkish walnut! I REALLY like the look of the first guns I posted.



Mike, I haven't gotten tired of that Garbi yet!



I remember these P&V/AKUS guns.... the fact that they worked with AKUS to build guns really impressed me considering the standard P&V works to. That's a good testimony of AKUS especially when you consider P&V builds guns for Purdey!



Not a chance jOe... I love my Turk 410. It aint going anywhere!

No. I saw one photo with very serious runout. It is just waiting to break through the wrist. I hope whoever is shooting that gun when it breaks doesn't get poked in the eye.

Which model Purdey does P&V build?

Hi, I have 2 Turk guns, a 16ga Dickinson (which there has been a ton of written about on this and other forums, so we'll pass on this one). The other is a 20ga Yildiz SxS. I was skeptical about this gun at first, but decided to pull the pin on one. For a $400 SxS, with ejectors, a SST (that works very well BTW)and choke tubes, I thought ....to good to be true. However, it's turned out to be a very good gun. Lightweight at 5-13, well balanced, decent wood, no issues with the ejectors, SST and bbl regulation is spot on. Very impressive for the price. It's been thru two seasons now and as I said not one problem. My son has a 12ga Yildiz O/U that he uses for ducks, upland and clays. Again, not one problem. He's put a lot of rounds thru it, and it's stood the test of time. I think they are a better quality gun than the Mossberg SR series, cheaper and IMO more reliable. Just my take on Yildiz guns.

Best!

Greg

I don't HAVE to either, bonny, but choose to because they're fun. I, too, have the "English Game Gun", but it sits in the safe while the Yildiz gets used for walking the Lab to the pond almost daily, and for doves and quail in season. An Elegant 4 Yildiz is just lots of fun!!

All my best, SRH

Perugini & Visini builds the Purdey "Sporter"
http://www.purdey.com/guns-rifles/the-sporter/

I have owned a few Yildiz, and know other owners of them, solid guns guns for the price.

Noticed that too, and thought "Good thing they have a through-bolt."

Beautiful wood, beautiful engraving, but somebody needs to convince makers and importers that they should quit knocking ugly marks in the barrels.

I agree 100%. That is the only fault I can find with my Dickinson, the barrel stampings.

SRH

I've been considering an order for a Dickinson 28 gauge, 30", case colors, manual safety and exhibition wood. It's priced quite reasonably and wait time is 6-8 months.

They also make nice handguns, pomegranate juice, fig preserves, wool carpets,....Please be sure to check them out and make Turkey great again.

When Smith & Wesson were importing these, I fitting one to me and shot quail with it. I was please with the gun then.

So I just order some of new Dickinson and they are very nice guns for the money. I just go them in and have sold some already. I read some very nice reports and have seen nice things about them on the chat boards.

Yesterday I have inquired about some of the higher grades with more engraving.

Best

John Boyd

Just looked at the Planation 28 ga. 30" late last night, outstanding gun with fantastic wood. I think I might order one custom for myself

John Boyd
Quality Arms

Here turkey turkey turkey....heAr turkey turkey turkey...

The position they will fill will be to drain a few pocket books of money that there will be no return on.

Er..these blokes will fight you over their jUnk Zildiz shoot guns.....

I have no problems with buying stuff from Turkey. Shot one of their 9mm military guns and frankly thought it might have been better than CZ75 it copied. No concerns Turkey is not one of them "Shithole Countries".

John, are they getting more consistent on decent trigger pulls? That's been my complaint with the Turks. Field tested CZ's, S&W Elite, Dickinson . . . mixed bag when it came to triggers. Some were OK, some definitely not. That's why I still advise anyone buying Turkish to get out the snap caps and test the triggers before buying.

I have tried two of the guns trigger pulls, one was very nice and the other was acceptable. I know I have some personal guns with fair trigger pulls with slack and creep.I still shoot them. I can honestly say Larry that when I am shooting live birds, I do not notice the difference. Maybe when I am hunting if I paid more attention to the trigger pulls and less attention to the flying birds I might notice it


Best to all

John Boyd

One of the great things about a $486 Yildiz is that I didn't mind at all chopping off both ends to make it into a turkey gun. This one now has 24" barrels and weighs 5 lbs, 6 oz. It's really nice for an old man to carry, and I have the choice of a tight choke or a more open choke on a close shot. It would be my idea of the perfect turkey gun if it just had 2 triggers.

Do they make long barreled hammerguns ?

No.

SRH

Then what good are they?

Silly old men to tote around....

You show me your Yiltz and I'll show you mine....

That Turkish walnut is hard to resist. How much would a sidelock with bulino engraving or CCH and a premium piece of walnut cost?

In Adam's third post where the guy is pictured taking a knee with the 2 dogs and that sidelock sitting there or the pic below it, how much would a gun like that cost? And can it be ordered?

Yildiz is what it is, an entry level gun. My 7yr old is a pro with his .410, its light and fits him. I would never disparage him for using it. It's his first O/U and he is proud of it. It always seems that its easy to sh*t on everyone else's guns. It's even easier on a forum to parrot someone else's opinion without actually having used one. So if you are on the fence about Yildiz just go in knowing it is an entry level gun, rough around the edges but a solid gun, and as stated earlier, Turkish guns are getting better for a mass produced gun.

Well stated.

As for actually having used one ............. I have, a lot. I have intimate knowledge of two more, all three S x Ss. They all three needed to have the trigger lightened. I did mine and one other myself, and assisted with the third. Very easy trigger to get down to 3 1/2 lbs. Did that when new, and all three triggers have functioned flawlessly since then. The regulation on mine is perfect, and it shoots 50/50 with 1/2 oz. and 11/16 oz. loads.

I have been around several of the O/Us that have exhibited trigger problems, several years ago. But again, on the S x Ss, they're very reliable. If you could just see the lockwork on them you would have a better feeling about spending your money. Polished to the point that it seems out of place on a gun this inexpensive. If I get a chance this morning I will pull the buttstock off mine and take a couple pics to post here. Want to rub some oil finish on the wood anyway, be a good time to get some pics.

I used to shoot doves with mine a lot, before I got the 30" barreled .410 Dickinson, but I still carry it when I walk the dog, or just want to walk with a gun. It's solid quality (for the money) and has easily been the biggest gun buying surprise of my life. It's so much more gun than the J C Higgins .410 S x S I started out on, as a kid, that it's not even a fair comparison.



Works good on these, too.



SRH

Stan, I don't think I've ever even pulled a trigger on one of the Turkish OU's. A guy with whom I used to hunt had temporary custody of a very fancy Turkish OU, acquired by a relative who served in the Air Force in Turkey. That gun doubled on him, but I can't blame current production for that. It was some time ago.

On another forum, the owner of a Turkish-made Webley & Scott (same factory as the Dickinson, I believe) had his double trigger gun double on him twice this past season. And he reported that a friend of his had one double as well. That one a single trigger gun. Caused me to recall my gunsmith friend's advice--and he's a guy who doesn't work on much of anything other than sxs--that he felt doing much adjustment was risky. Wonder if those guns had had some trigger adjustment work done.

I haven't had the triggerplate/lockwork out of my Dickinson to look at it. Haven't had the need to. But, the little Yildiz is a box lock, with very easy-to-work-on trigger parts. Must be hardened sufficiently too, as I did trigger work on mine some 8-10 yrs. ago, and it's never changed one iota.

All the Yildiz O/U triggers I saw give problems were singles.

SRH

I had the gunsmith to reduce the trigger on my 20 gauge sxs Yildiz when he chopped and rethreaded the barrels. The trigger wasn't all that bad from the factory, but he got it down to 4 lbs and I've never had an issue with it. I mainly shoot 1.625 oz tungsten loads through it, though I have shot some 1.875 oz loads. You would think if it was gonna double that it would have happened with loads like these.

sorry, mis-posted

No one knows what one of these Turks cost?

eeb - Huglu makes a 12 bore 30" hammergun, with choke tubes and a tang safety, marketed here by CZ-USA as the Hammer Classic. I bought one for ducks and steel shot. It is ugly and the original triggers were awful, but it has stood up to a lot of hard use thus far. I have no qualms about beating it up in the marsh, whereas I fret when using an 1870's fowler.

Treb, get in touch with them and ask.

James, who would I call? Some one in Turkey?

Call Pacific Sporting Arms.

http://www.pacificsportingarms.com/dickinson/

SRH

Good deal Stan. Thank You!!

Sorry Treb, I thought with a bit of googling it would be easy to figure out who is offering them for sale in the US. Because I did it last year to figure out if they were offering the program up here. So I was just lazy and didn't bother finding a link for you. My bad!

Stan, thank you for supplying Treb with the link.

James, what confused me the most was I've seen them in the stores, but none of them had those outrageous Turkish walnut stocks.

I didn't know where or how these guys were getting this wood upgrade on their guns.

I talk directly to Marty at Dickinson about upgraded wood, etc....info@dickinsonarms.com.

Here's some current pricing info from him...

Here is how the costs run:

Estate model shotgun $1795
#3 wood upgrade $375 or #4 $885.
Factory charge to make up single gun $150.
Shipping $25.

All other specifications would be included. Delivery time is six to eight months.

Marty
Customer Service Dept.

Dickinson, LLC
5140 Commerce Ave Unit A&B
Moorpark, CA 93021

Tel: 805-978-8565
Fax: 805-978-8564

Here are examples of #4 wood (exhibition grade)...

What a waste of good looking wood....

MARTY at Dickinson's California office has been very helpful to me in arranging a prompt warranty repair on my Dickinson SxS. A trigger spring broke. Good customer service.

Why? Turkey was part of Byzantine Empire when Englishmen lived in "mud huts". There is no reason why Turks can't make fine shotguns if they really want to. They have good military industry and their "CZ75" with forged slide and frame is at least as good as the Czech CZ75. It is sold commercially in USA as AR 24 pistol and it is one solid piece of "steel brick".

I don't often agree with JM but I do here. It is simply a matter of time (and commitment by the makers) before they will be able to compete with anyone in the world for all but Best gun quality. What will take a bit longer is for the gun buying world to recognize that quality as and when it appears.

You all remember when "Made in Japan" meant it was crap, right?

AKUS is in the right track and all this talk about triggers over the last few years is surely getting back to them.

It's surprising to me how the Turks can make guns like the sxs Yildiz, send them all the way to the USA, and then sell them for $486 and still apparently make a profit. I'm certainly not gonna argue that these are high quality guns, but they are very functional and mine have been 100% reliable. I've posted pics of the one I had cut up to make a turkey gun, but I liked that one so much that I bought another one to keep in the truck every trip to my farm. I don't worry about scratching it up and it will shoot any kind of shell and accomplish most anything I need from a shotgun.

I don't see much evidence of hand fitting on it. Apparently they have figured out how to make the parts with machines and fit them together with minimal labor. The barrels and forearms on mine will interchange; I suspect all the parts would. Barrel regulation on both guns is excellent, and I can't say that about all my sxs guns.

It makes me wonder why if Yildiz can mass produce an entry level sxs, why can't it be done in other countries? I would assume that it's mainly that they don't believe there is a market for them, but I think it might be to some extent a lack of knowledge by gun companies. Ruger couldn't seem to build a decent sxs. If they couldn't, maybe the others can't either.

Seems to me that the Turks may be a lot smarter than some think.

"Seems to me that the Turks may be a lot smarter than some think."

lower working/living standards and pay scales allow them to ship over a gun for next to nothing. I would much rather support csmc and American workers that pay American taxes, than buy a Turkish gun. but that's just me.

What would you guys decide to do buy a used Spanish gun and have it restocked in Turkish walnut or order a brand new Turk gun with Turkish walnut?

http://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-fo...un_id=100931373

http://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-fo...un_id=100967702

http://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-fo...un_id=100931599

Canvasback, that's a good reminder. So let's stop and remember what caused the widespread acceptance of Japanese guns in this country.

The first ones to appear in any kind of quantity, I think, were the OU's and sxs marked "Charles Daly". Good enough guns, but didn't cause a big stir.

What caused a bigger stir: Winchester's Olin Kodensha operation in Japan. Where they made 101's, 23's, and Parker Reproductions. Not long after Winchester started with the 101, Ithaca cut a deal with SKB to import their OU's and sxs. That's two heavy hitters in the US firearms market bringing in Japanese doubles. Then Browning joined the parade: First with the BSS, then with the Citori. So, 3 big names in American firearms . . . that pretty much sold the American consumer on "made in Japan" not being crap. Of course it helped that at the same time, the Japanese were also scoring big in the American market with cars and electronics.

The problem for the Turks is that our market isn't as dominated by companies selling American guns (or guns on which they put American names) as in the past. And so far, not a single really important American company has put their name on Turkish-made guns. Or if they have--like S&W--the relationship didn't last for long. That may cause American buyers to be just a bit more cautious where Turkish guns are concerned. In the shotgun business, we're now up to Turkish doubles that are selling fairly well in the $2,000 range--and that's progress, because the S&W's had to be discounted down to about $1200 before they sold. Most Americans are still thinking of Turkish guns like we did about Spanish guns back in the 60's: bottom feeders. They have the low end sxs niche pretty much to themselves. But that's a relatively small market. The much bigger doublegun market is in stack barrels . . . and there they run head long into Citori and Beretta in the medium price range. Which makes it really tough for the Turks to do what the Japanese did 50 years ago.

Larry, I wasn’t specifically referring to guns with that line. But you make a good point. All the lack of a “big”’American brand name means is that recognition and acceptance will take a few years longer.

That’s assuming they continue as have....upping the quality level they can and do produce.

Brand names are simply a code that tells us something about the product. And lots of them rise and fall. But once well established, a good brand name has amazing staying power. Consumers like shortcuts.

As far as stack barrels and competing against Browning and Beretta goes....there was a time when it was laughable to imagine Toyota, Honda and Nissan challenging the Big Three in NA. Simply laughable. Then, while we were laughing, the Big Three had their asses handed to them so badly that by the end of the last decade, two of three needed government bailouts. Complacency can be a [censored].

There was a time when Beretta meant little to American consumers. Same with Perazzi. If your competition is hungry and means business, look out. The only question that remains is are the Turks really committed. Truly, that's the only question. I've seen it in too many other areas of consumer products. Guns aren't somehow magical in that they can only be made in the places they have always been made by those who always made them.

Larry, the fact that the Turks have made the inroads they have in the American market, without the help of a big name American gun company speaks volumes. They have basically done it "on their own". Wait, just wait.

SRH

Ahh, the hint of hypocritical leftism. The world needs help until it's a choice between them and our homegrown "workers".

Haven't heard much from you supporting America in the past. What's different now? "Workers" are involved?? This makes me sad. Those nasty American workers have been taking jobs away from nice gun factories right around where I live...Cobourg and Peterborough! The poor workers!! A pox on CSMC!!

[quote=dal]"Seems to me that the Turks may be a lot smarter than some think."

lower working/living standards and pay scales allow them to ship over a gun for next to nothing. I would much rather support csmc and American workers that pay American taxes, than buy a Turkish gun. but that's just me. [/quote

Bingo. Well said.

dal & eeb,

Can either of you lay claim to having never bought an item that was made outside the States? If you can't, why are you picking on the Turkish guns?

SRH

loss of manufacturing in the U.S and Canada has taken a terrible toll. I use to bid on moving Canadian companies to Mexico. it was sickening. unless csmc has a far less superior product...why not support it. going to the lowest common denominator has cost thousands of jobs. Trump knows it, and hopefully will fulfill a campaign promise to bring back good paying manufacturing jobs.

save money...live better...ya right. just ask your neighbours who are now out of work cause because the plant was moved to....where ever in order to save you money.

and yes...I look for Canadian products and would rather eat at a family restaurant than the tim hortons across the street. support your neighbours with your dollars...rather than your tax money through unemployment or welfare funds. but that's just me.

oh...and I think America is a great country filled with great people. some of whom I may not get along with...but that's life. not sure where the leftest comment comes info play?

dal - 0

eeb - ?

SRH

your question is ludicrous Stan. but I think you knew it was.

I may be off base, but it looks to me like the material costs for a mass produced gun like the Yildiz sxs would be only marginally higher in the USA than in Turkey. I would think that the CNC machines and the components would be similar, especially since they wouldn't have the import costs.

So that leaves the labor and govt regulations as the big difference on input costs. My Y guns have the appearance of being primarily made by machines. So why couldn't CSMC or some other US company mass produce entry level sxs shotguns and sell them for under $1000? It may be that they just don't want to. It also may be that they don't know how.

I am not arguing and I don't know the answer. I would love to buy a new American made sxs set up like I want, but it doesn't exist.

I’m not picking on the Turks at all. An excellent point was made about low labor costs enabling the Turks to produce competitively priced shotguns. Nothing new here. AKUS fills a niche market and many can testify that they are good guns. I think about Korean cars. 20 years ago They were crap, now they compete very effectively against the rest of the world. The winners are the low cost producers. The Italian makers should be worried.

And dal is spot on about the loss of domestic industry as we chase the “deals” at the big box stores or wherever. We complain about the loss and lack of domestically made products and wonder why when the answer is looking at us in the mirror.

Of course I did, dal. But the reason was to point out that we pick and choose what we want to get our panties in a wad about. I'm a patriot. I have great appreciation for the sacrifices made over the last 250 years to make this such a wonderful place to live. I support American made at every opportunity. But, the opportunities are getting less and less as the world "gets smaller".

You said, "lower working/living standards and pay scales allow them to ship over a gun for next to nothing. I would much rather support csmc and American workers that pay American taxes, than buy a Turkish gun. but that's just me.". I'd like to understand just what you meant by that. Do you mean you will do without an item you want forever, just because it is not made in America? Or, do you mean that, like I did when I ordered my Dickinson .410, check for availability of it being made in America, then decide if the extra cost of the item made here is worth "buying patriotic"?

I always wanted a 30" barreled .410 S x S, with ejectors, and double triggers, and had waited for many years hoping someone would build them. CSMC decided to, and I looked at one, and couldn't handle the price.

So, am I unpatriotic? Or, are you talking out of both sides of your mouth when you say you won't buy Turkish made guns, but you buy other stuff made outside the U.S.A.?

SRH

Their low end timing was very good, Stan. The Turkish guns started showing up just about the time the Spanish were "moving on up", to quote the line from "The Jeffersons". And as I noted, they've now bumped up to the $2,000 neighborhood--give or take a little--and seem to be successful. But it's a gradual process. When they tried to make the jump from guns in the 3 figure range to $5,000 Kimber sidelocks . . . that didn't work at all. Mainly because there were well-established Spanish makers (like AyA) selling sidelocks with a solid track record for less. But given the current market, now there's room for a good sidelock. Maybe not quite $5K, but if they can do it in the $3-4k range, where there's essentially no competition . . . might be time to make that jump.

Maybe it's time for an American gun writer or two to visit Turkey and speak glowingly of the skilled craftsmen, as they did when Spanish guns ceased being regarded as cheap junk. But the Basques aren't Muslims. The Turks do have that hurdle to clear.

There no need to feel unpatriotic by buying products made outside USA. The fault for status quo lies with wealthy consumers wanting the cheapest shit possible and politicians who cater to Wall Street, bankers, corporations because they own stocks in companies that move production out of this country to reduce costs. The corporations/executives, bankers, investors can donate to reelection campaign of those politicians assuring that the vicious self-serving cycle continues indefinitely. I would say if one enjoys shooting old vintage guns their number one ammo supplier should be RST shells.

Such bullshit. Keeping consumer goods like shoes, clothing, furniture and electronics made here was not doable. Ridiculous union labor pay scale and benefits demands along with cheap overseas labor (75% less), combined with equal or better quality wins every time. Nothing to do with your flawed conspiracy theory.
JR

Thanks John for making this point. I was involved in the footwear business from the very late 1970's forward. Had a ringside seat at the collapse of the domestic shoe manufacturing industry where it was centred in New England. There is one, simple easy explanation....for products of equivalent quality, consumers will pick the lowest price every time.

Whether that is short sighted or not is another question. But the only conspiracy or corporate machinations that went on was a desperate struggle to lower costs in response to consumer demand. Eventually the consumer insists it be made in the lowest cost country that can produce the acceptable quality. That specific location changes over time and product type/quality level, but the driving force is consumer demand.

It would have been so much simpler, and much less headache to continue having product made in factories in New England. Everyone speaks the same language, transport is easy and so is quality control....I can just drive or hop a commuter flight. But when my competition is at $149.99, I can't be at $350.00. And it was at that order of magnitude.

We need a LIKE button...

LIKE...

That's an easy one dla (sic). The leftist comment comes from paying attention to all of the Leftist Socialist and anti-gun crap that you have posted for as long as you've been here.

What are you saying??? Are you trying to tell us that you are going to try to reinvent yourself as a pro-gun conservative like King Brown??? That isn't going to work. No one with a brain will ever believe it. I'm glad it was someone else who brought it up first. You can shoot the messenger(s) now if you like.