Over the past several years I've relied on you guys to give me advice on potential purchases. All of it good. I've bought a few Fox's, a Parker, and a some others by reading and/or asking what the experts have to say. I'm back for some more advice.

I've always dreamed of owning an English "Game Gun". Pretty rich for my blood most of the time. If I could afford it the condition was pretty bad.

Bottom line is that I've finally run into someting I think I can afford but don't know much about it, much less what it's worth. I need help. It's not a Purdey, but it is pretty nice to my eyes.

Specifics are:
Webley & Scott Ltd. SxS, 12 gauge, box lock, 27 1/2 barrels (appear uncut), 2 5/8 chambers, nitro proof 1 1/4, straight stock, double triggers with ejectors, 14 1/2 LOP, modern drop dimensions, 3/8 cast off, chokes of .007 and .015 ( per my vernier). Bore dia. are approx. .730 right and left. Weight is 6# 4oz. Action is tight, on face, and the lever is right of center.
Serial number places date of manufacture as 1922. Looks a lot like a more modern model 701 ( tear drops, quite a bit of engraving) but I suspect it to be a model 400. Condition is very good. I estimate it at 90%. Metal and wood. Everything seems to work.

I know pictures are invaluable but I don't have any.

This is a private sale, no shop, auction site, etc involved. The gun has been in storage for quite some time.

I'm hoping a few of you can chime in with fact based opinions, data etc. to aid my decision making.

I also would like to get an idea what I should be paying for it. Asking prices on web sites and books don't seem to reflect actual sales prices in the real world. I didn't reveal the asking price because I wanted your opinions on what it is worth. I don't suspect I'll be "stealing it".

Thank you all in advance for reading and your guidance.

TomR

I'm gonna put my neck on the line here and suggest that if the bores are clean and there's ample wall thickness, the screws aren't chewed and the hinge looks unbutchered, it'll probably be a good workhorse which could last for years and years if it's looked after.
It'd be nice to let a good gunsmith give it the once over if the seller agrees to it.

Tom, as a webley fan, i'd advise you to snap it up. Webley never made a bad gun that i can think of. Also webley made and did work for a lot of higher end gunmakers, their products were excellent. I have no experience of the new turkish stuff though.

Tom, from your description I'd go along with your supposition that the Webley & Scott you've found is the model 400. Great guns. The one you're looking at sounds like a great bird gun! I don't know what the price should be but I would expect you'd be getting a fair deal between $2,500 and $3,000...Geo

i have a 400, great gun, screw grip,a lot more work went into 400s than 700s and webleys are great guns if in good condition.

Wasn't there a 500 model from about that era, also? Some of the earlier models have bushed strikers, a nice feature.

Nice guns, but, condition is king on pricing, and I can't see it. Good Luck, anyway.


Best,
Ted

Tom, I'd take issue with on Brit game guns need be pricey. The W&S you are asking about is a prime example. Just about any Brit gun weighing 6 1/2# in 12 bore will be a game gun; your prospective gun would actually be considered a light game gun.

Value. W&S is Brand Value level three - BV3. The gun itself will fit to "second level boxlock ejector" - Original Quality grade six - OQ6. Nice, serviceable gun with no apologies needed, but not a "best work" gun, either. Current Condition level sounds like "significant use;" CC3.

BV3-OQ6-CC3 = $2,320. Make it plus/minus $500 and you have the likely envelope of possible values.

Hope that is of some value to you.

DDA

Are we sure those guns came with 27 1/2" barrels ?

Friend of mine had the same W&S moved to Parkers and put it up for sale. I shot it a lot and now wish I had bought the gun. At the time all I could think about was Parker, English game gun like the W&S handles different. Now I appreciate how good they are with the right loads.

Boats

"TomR," a Webley & Scott, especially of that era, is an excellent boxlock gun and a well-made choice. I have shot and owned a number of them over the years and each always did the job to hand and handled as well as any other gun, even comparatively much more expensive boxlock guns, if the stock dimensions were usable for me and the mechanics were as they should be.

I understand this transaction would be private sale, which means you can probably make a very good deal. Condition will, as has already been said here, control price. If you are seeking advice, my advice would be to locate a well-known and established vintage / antique gun gunsmith and take the gun to him for a complete cleaning and professional review. And I would make the purchase and the price paid contingent upon that expert's opinion. In tendering $250-300 for this service, you will save yourself a lot of concerns over unanswered questions and cure doubts, as well as understand the true value of what is on offer for potential purchase.

Good luck!


Regards,

Edwardian

From your description, at 90% condition, with all the features of a choice upland gun, you should expect to pay at the top of the range for this type of gun. You will look at a lot of dogs to find another in 90% condition, if you are comfortable with that description.
I will refrain on pricing because our prices are generally lower than US prices. The range quoted does not seem like scary numbers to me if this is the gun that feels right.
Remember also, that this is a gun that you can handle and examine, not an elusive, possible gun out on the Internet.
I will say that I have more regrets about really nice guns that I didn't buy, than any that I paid right up to top market price.

Tom, go to www.hillrodandgun.com. Scroll down until you come to the Webley & Scott priced at $5800. Yours sounds to me like the same gun: drop points, bushed pins, virtually full coverage extremely well-executed small scroll engraving, carved leaves on the fences, wedges of engraving on the barrel breaches. That would be a Model 400 Grade 1. I have a dead twin to the gun shown on the Hill website. With apologies to Researcher, the number he gave you would be about average price for a Webley & Scott Model 700 in decent condition, which is a good, solid gun but doesn't compare to a 400 Grade 1. (Mine also has extremely nice wood, and it looks like the Hill gun does as well.) With apologies to Researcher, I think those guns approach the level of "boxlock best". You can pay more for a name, but you won't see many Brit boxlocks of better quality than a 400 Grade 1. (The Brits went backwards, and the Grade 1 was the top grade; then the Grade 2; Grade 3, pretty plain, at the bottom.

With a 1 1/4 oz proof it has original 2 3/4" chambers. I have a grade 3 model 400 with the screwgrip locking from 1906 and it has become a favorite skeet gun. Finish work inside and outside is just amazing. I also have a model 500 which is a notch up and has a fancy back. Few of these were made.

Larry, I think you were talking about me, not Researcher.

OK, BV3-OQ5 (best work BLE)-CC2 (limited use) = $4,208.

BV3-OQ5-CC1 (pristine) = $6,021

Opinions as to the described gun being a Model #400 and/or the #400 being a "best work gun"?

DDA

FWIW;
If the proof marks on your gun are 1.1/4oz then this would have had 2.75" chambers & was likely a model 300.

The model 400 was proofed for 1.1/8oz shot with 2.1/2" chambers.

I had a similar age (ca 1921) grade 3 (border engraved) model 400 that had been sold/stamped as W.& C. Scott & Sons, 55 Victoria Street, London, England (Webley/Scott's London office in early 1920s used for the export business). It had Disc set strikers, ejectors, screw grip, 30" barrels, Nicely figured wood & weighed about 6lb 10oz. It was lovely to hunt with.

A few things I found out about these "Proprietary" model (300 & 400) guns of this period. They were supposed to be simplified basic working tools meant to stand up to rough treatment and local mechanics far from the "civilized" world.

W&S used provisional 1925 proof markings from at least 1921 onward. A model 400 would (usually/always?) be proofed for 1.1/8oz shot which meant 2.5" chambers in a light game gun. The model 300 was identical except being proofed for 1.1/4oz shot with 2.75" chambers and being a slight bit heavier. Neither of them were marked with model #.
The Screw grip was one of the features of these models.

There was a noted English trap shooter (name escapes me for the moment) who used the model 300 extremely successfully. He apparently liked the idea that he could routinely use this low-class off-the-shelf working man's tool to beat up on the proper gentlemen with their bespoke purpose-made London Best guns. He had his collected Medals covering his gunstock like a Gypsy which apparently gave him great pleasure & his competitors considerable irritation.

This info was gleaned from the Crawford/Whatley Webley & Scott book and cross-referencing with some W&S catalogs & product sheets.

YMMV

I think this is what you referring to;
http://www.thefield.co.uk/reviews/gun-reviews/percy-stanburys-webley-scott

I had not heard the story quite as you have described it above. Percy Stanbury was a well known and highly respected shot and coach. I have met a couple of his pupils, and he has been described as a wonderful coach and perfect gentleman.
There area couple of books he co-wrote (with G.L. Carlisle) still around.

More here http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=344582

Rocketman--Sorry. Yes, meant that for you. Thanks for responding. My Model 400 Grade 1 dates from 1924, It does have 2 3/4" chambers which appear to be original. Can't see any indication they've been lengthened. But chamber length was not required as a proofmark until 1925, so not marked that way.

If Tom responds to my post and checks out the Hill Rod & Gun website, we'll know whether he has a Model 400 Grade 1. Has a lot of bells and whistles not found on basic boxlocks, and absolutely incredible small scroll engraving.

I'm not.

If I were considering the gun I would like to know the length of the chokes. If the barrels started out at 28" it doesn't seem that a 1/2" trim would keep the tubes from touching. Unless that gun shows up in a contemporaneous Webley and Scott catalogue advertising the availability of 27-1/2" barrels I would discount the gun for having had the barrel slightly trimmed.

70 CM would be approximately 27 9/16" (27.559" actually) but of course when this gun was built England was not on the metric system. It seems that during this era many barrel tubes were supplied by Belgian makers but these were normally I believe shipped as rough tubes & the makers finished them up to even lengths in inch increments.

The Scott book has Stanbury shooting a W&S 400, not a 300. But not much difference in price between a 300 and a 400 Grade 3 (the basic model).

I am again impressed by the wealth of knowledge that exists on this site. Thanks to all that have helped "clear the fog" for me about this shotgun. This what I've learned so far....I think.

It is probably a Model 300 vs a 400 due to the fact that in front of the flats it is stamped in tiny letters " 2/3/4 shells" ( didn't note that before) and the proof is for 1 1/4.

It still is very light at 6# 4 oz and it's beautiful!

The action (bottom, sides, forend iron, fences, top and bottom tangs and trigger guard) are completely covered in fine scroll engraving but not the oak leaf pattern on the fences that Larry refered to for a Grade 1.

The wood is definitly as good as the Grade I at the site Larry refered me to.

I suspect it may be a Grade 2. The engraving and wood appear to be much better than the norm I've seen on the internet. I doubt very much if this is a base model gun.

It does have bushings (discs?) for the strikers. Didn't notice that before either!

I remeasured the barrel length and and found they are not 27 1/2 but rather 27 9/16. A gunsmith examined them and felt confident they have not been cut/trimmed. ????? Pehaps a gun made for the Continent??? I don't know.

I didn't attempt to carefully measure the length of the chokes. Dragging a set if internal calipers through the end of the bores revealed they are about 1/1/2 to 2 inches long with what seems to be a short parallel area at the exit.

Price wise it seems I'm getting a pretty good deal. $1600.

It looks like at long last I may have found my "English Game Gun". It may not be a Purdey but I suspect it will do just fine.

Unless someone upsets the apple cart I expect it will be mine on Monday or Tuesday.
TomR

Congrats. Sounds like a REALLY nice Webley. I much prefer them with disc set strikers. As Miller pointed out, the barrels may have been specked at 70.
Pictures, when you have the time.
Thanks.

Best,
Ted

First Mea Culpa.

I attempted to write my previous babbling post from all-too-dank memory while half asleep and apparently low blood sugar. I believe my flourishes concerning Mr. Stansbury included some ramblings from a dotty old Brit friend who had contact with him & West London Ground in the distant past. I am certain that he gave great praise to his skills & did say that he was a perfect gentlemen and outstanding coach.

The whole investigation of what is what with the guns reminds me of an old observation to never say "never" or "Always" when it comes to any gun made by Webley & Scott.

OK. Champlin Arms has a Ca 1925 Webley/Scott high grade Mod. 400 listed on Gunsinternational

Linked Here

This is one of the images contained there.



L

Tom, this gun "could have been" a BV1 name. I have James Woodward & Sons #6188, a W & S Proprietary. It is a nice, mid-grade boxlock ejector - not less, not more. The Woodward name is fun to have, but does not change the gun.

DDA

Tom, that gun now resides at my house. I'm very happy with it. Disc-set strikers, 3rd fastener, Webley screw grip. Looks a bit different now. Too long for me as shown in the photo. Now wears a thinner leather-covered pad.

Larry, That's a beautiful gun. I've had several dealings with George Caswell, always very pleasant. He sure knows guns....a wealth of information/knowledge. BTW, I'm guessing that gun looks great with a leather pad. Show us a photo. Those orange pads are ok on some guns, but......

Tom, if your gun is a 300 rather than a 400, it would have a Greener crossbolt as the 3rd fastener. The Model 400, being a Webley screw grip design, uses a rib extension. The Scott book only lists one grade for the Model 300. It was replaced by the 300A in 1939, which had more engraving. But from what you said about the serial number dating it to 1922, it doesn't sound as if you have a 300A. But that Greener crossbolt vs rib extension and screw grip will clearly differentiate a 300 from a 400.

Either way, it sounds as if you're getting a very good deal. That kind of money won't buy a Model 700 12ga in good condition. And especially if you have a Model 400 Grade 2, you have a much nicer gun with features that are lacking on the postwar 700 series guns--like a 3rd fastener and disc-set strikers.

Well, a Model 400 it is then. No Greener crossbolt, its a screw grip for sure. A vintage gun site in the UK agrees that 300's
were all made with the Greener cross bolt.

Even though it's chambered for 2 3/4 inch, 1 1/4 oz loads I suspect a prudent owner should probably stick to low pressure shotshells like RST's 2 1/2 inch, 1 oz loads. I have no experience with their 2 3/4 inch shells.
Tom

We all wait with anticipation for pictures of your treasure.

Tom, the RST 2 3/4" shells are also relatively low pressure.

From your description and verification it's a 400 but lacks the deeply chiseled fences (and perhaps the wedges of engraving on the barrels as well?), I think you likely have a Grade 2. There might be someone else here who can confirm that. I can't, because unfortunately, the Scott book contains photos of only Grades 1 and 3. Grade 1 is essentially unengraved; Grade 3 profuse engraving of very fine small scroll, but with the features noted above. Sounds like yours falls between. Congratulations on a nice gun--at a really excellent price!

Larry is that "our" gun pictured above? I didn't think it ever made it to the site.

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=28731&page=1

Here's a couple photos of Webley & Scott engraving.

Model 500 (similar to Model 400), grade 2 engraving



Model 400, grade 3

Bob--That is indeed Dustin's, then yours, then Champlin's, then mine. It's one of those guns that looks even better in the hand than it does in photos. And George takes pretty good photos.

Dustin, thanks for resurrecting that thread from many moons ago!

Thanks for doing that, that red pad was bothering me...

Larry, I know some guns pass through your hands pretty . . . Ahem, . . . quickly. Please let me know when this one is about to.

It's doing a good job of staying at home so far, David!