I'm sure that there's a reference to this somewhere but I've haven't been able to find it. I've used hammerless guns all my life but love the looks of the old hammer guns. I'm curious though as to how one uses them while hunting. Are they generally carried at half cock and then fully cocked just prior to or during a flush? It seems like this could cost one many shots when game is jumped or flushes unexpectedly. If this is the case, how is it done? Are both hammers cocked with eh thumb as the gun is raised to the shoulder?

It depends on the species of game hunted. Duck hunting is a non-issue. There is usually time to cock both barrels while the birds are coming into range.

Upland game is a different issue. I have hunted many years with hammer guns, and have come on the system of cocking one barrel on the flush and then hold the second barrel in reserve for a second flush. Over the years of hunting grouse and woodcock, I can probably count on my fingers of situations where I would get two GOOD shots at one bird. More times than I care to admit, I have whiffed with two fleeting shots on one bird only to have a second bird flush moments later, only to be standing there with an empty gun. I have taken many birds with the reserved barrel strategy.

However, having said that, if you hunt in areas where multiple birds can flush at once (pheasants, quail, etc.) A hammer gun will limit your rate of fire.

This is for cartridge guns that generally have low hammers, and are difficult to cock with your thumb at the same time. Alternatively, percussion guns and other guns with high hammer spurs such as pinfires, can with practice, be cocked at the same time.

I've used my hammer gun for upland shooting and if shooting over a dog there is enough time to cock the hammers, flush and shoot. I have also cocked the hammers and opened the gun and load it and carry it at my side with my hand over the breech so the shells don't fall out.
The ones I shoot with do not have a half cock.

Most rebounding hammer guns do not have a half cock position. With a non-rebounding hammer you can set the hammer at half cock and easily bring it into battery upon the flush. Not so easy with the full cocking motion required on a rebounding hammer gun.

I've never had much luck walking around the woods with a fully cocked gun broken open. It scares me too much when considering a fall, and I leave a trail of unfired shells through the woods like Hansel and Gretel's breadcrumbs.

My solution is to just cock the right hammer on the shot and leave the 2nd barrel in reserve. As someone already noted, it's not a problem with ducks or doves as there is time to cock both hammers before the shot has to be taken....Geo

I agree with George . I carry the gun with cartridges in the barrels and hammers not cocked. Usually on a strap if its thick. and It usually is where I mostly hunt. A fall with a loaded and cocked gun is a way to shoot your dog or someone else. Open and loaded breeches are an option but bring a lot of ammo as you will be leaving a trail like Goldilocks. If you have time to close the breech you have time to cock a hammer especially over a dog.

I'm mostly a quail hunter puffing behind AmarilloMike's supurb turd hounds. When a dog goes on point I bring them both back to full cock before walking in for the flush. I know the gun is ready to go and act accordingly, as we should all do anytime! Remember, all guns have hammers, it's just that with them exposed it is a eye catching reminder just how dangerous any gun is. Remember--the only "safe" direction for any gun to be pointed is up at the sky!!!!

I am amazed and frightened how many times I've seen hunters walking around with their safeties off, thinking them perfectly safe and slinging the barrels in any direction. Most often they are using guns without automatic safeties.

Reading a lot of old literature I believe that many of the old timers also pulled them back when anticipating action, not during.

I've owned three hammer guns, two of which are still in my vault. One of them (a Bernardelli Italia 12 gauge) had a combination of sufficiently light springs and some particular angle to the hammer spurs that allowed both hammers to be cocked simultaneously as the gun was raised. I shot skeet doubles, low gun, with hammers cocked after I called for the bird and never had an issue.

The other two, a Charles Moore 12 gauge and a Ferlach made (I've blanked on the maker's name, but it's a nice 1920s gun) 16 gauge have heavier springs or sufficiently different angles on the hammer spurs that I cannot cock them both simultaneously as I mount the gun. I usually cock one hammer, fire the gun and then dismount the gun and cock the other hammer if I'm firing a follow-up shot. I make very, very few follow-up shots, as you might imagine.

With a smaller gun (say a 20 or a 28 gauge), you might have better luck as the space between the hammers is less, allowing better leverage with the right thumb.

Rem

"IF" you carry a hammer gun loaded, open & cocked make absolutely certain of two things. 1 that the barrels have a positive stop. some hammer guns did not & were checked from opening further by the forend iron butting against the bottom of the frame. This applies an undue stress on the forend lug & consequently the bottom rib Don't whatever you do EVER EVER Fall. This could prove disastrous to you, your dog, fellow hunter as well as your gun. My personal advise is "Don't" carry it open.

Hammerless guns are cocked on opening (the vast majority of them). So you are carrying around a COCKED gun when using a hammerless or repeater.

The safety blocks the trigger NOT THE HAMMER. So a gun on "safe" is not safe in an accidental hammer fall. The hammer can fall with the safety on.

Consequently this preoccupation with cocking the hammer gun is a little misplaced unless you do the same with a hammerless, ie, carry it open and close it on mounting the gun.

It is perfectly safe to cock the hammers when in an active hunting phase, ie behind a dog on point or at the stand when pass shooting. All other situations call for an open gun, regardless of hammer location.

The notion that walking few steps with a cocked hammer gun is somehow more dangerous than with a cocked hammerless on "safe" is weird. At least a rebounding hammer gun has a safety notch to catch the hammer in an accidental hammer fall, while your Anson Deeley SXS, OU, pump and auto do NOT.

Dismantling a few guns and seeing how they work is an eye opening experience.

Well said, Shotgunlover!

I cock one barrel at a time on the bird getting up. I am slower than my friends with their Superposed guns, but seem to get my share of birds. I shoot better with hammer guns on upland birds than my AyA number 2 in 20 gauge.
I have been shooting a Bernardelli Brescia 12 gauge since 1965. There have been quite a few other hammer guns, but the Bernardelli is a keeper, showing lots of loving wear to the finish.

I have two hammer guns.

My 1866 Joseph Lang is a non-rebounding hammer gun and I carry it at half-cock. It's a very easy swipe with my thumb to cock both hammers from half to full-cock as I bring the gun to my shoulder. It's my go to gun for quail preserves.

My mid/late 1940's Belgian Pieper 24 gauge hammer gun is a rebounder. I can also cock both hammers with a swipe of my thumb but it requires noticeably more force than my Lang.

With other hammer guns that I've shot I must cock the hammers one at a time. Some men may be able to cock both together but I can't.

I've got a bunch of (external) hammer guns and have hunted with most of them. In fact, a couple of them are among my favorites for grouse and woodcock. My hammers are always cocked. The gun's action is either open or closed, depending on the immediate situation. When expecting an imminent flush, dog or no dog, my gun is closed and pointed at the sky. After the flush - or if there was no flush - my gun is open again. When stopping for a break or to chat with someone my gun is open and empty.
My hunting companions seem to be quite comfortable with my method of hunting with hammer guns.

Well described DAM,

There are two design flaws in some hammer guns that bear correcting.

One is the mostrous power of the springs. Cowboy action shooters have proven that it is possile to lighten the springs so as to allow cocking BOTH hammers in one easy swipe of the left hand.

Second is the inability in some HG to open the gun with the right hammer at full cock. This too can be corrected.

The hard hammer springs must be a carryover from flintlock days when the hammer was extra heavy, laden with the flint, and had to overcome friction with the frizzen to fire. Modern shotgun primers are not that hard to ignite, evidence of that are the soft springs in autos and pumps, you can cock them with your little finger and they fire OK even though they push much longer and heavier firing pins and springs.

I find the back action lock easier to cock than a bar action lock on my L.C. Smiths.

I would disagree with this point on several levels. First off, since few shotgun manufacturers also built flintlock guns, there would be nothing for them to carry over from flintlock days. Poor design is poor design. Then there is the totally incorrect notion of a flintlock "hammer" or cock being extra heavy. A few may be pretty stout on flintlock military muskets, but not so on most hunting guns. I doubt if any of mine are any heavier than the average percussion or breechloading hammer, including the weight of the flint and leather. They are typically quite graceful. The springs are not mushy, but not overly heavy either. I'd say that speed and inertia is more responsible for kicking the frizzen open than an overly powerful mainspring. Too much mass in the cock is only going to contribute to a slower lock time, and that was largely engineered out of quality flintlocks long before they were replaced by percussion systems. The difference in lock time between a good and properly loaded flintlock and a breechloader is mere milliseconds. If I notice any delay, I know I have done something wrong. When hunting, the gun is brought to full cock as it is brought to the shoulder, just as most here are doing with their hammer guns. Of course, some are easier to cock both hammers at once than others, but that has nothing to do with their flintlock ancestry. Practice and individual technique probably has a lot to do with it too. Personally, I can't imagine much difference in speed or safety by carrying a cocked and open gun, and trying to quickly close it and get it to my shoulder versus smoothly bringing the gun up as you cock one or both hammers.

I hunt with hammer guns a lot and can't imagine walking through thegrouse woods with the action open and hammers cocked! Has to be pretty silly way to carry a gun while hunting.

As a matter of fact, in a flintlock gun the spring doesn't have to be extra strong - perhaps it was necessary to ensure quick and positive ignition in a shotgun, but ignition in principle could be achieved without much strenth. "Sibirka", an ancient flintlock rifle design made for Siberian fur hunters, featured mainspring made of a long piece of horn - and they worked.

Not to mention awkward. How would you fight through all that brush and jagger bushes with your gun open and the shells half ways falling out?

And sweeping both hammers back with your thumb? What happens in the middle of a flush and your thumb slips slightly, sweat or whatever, and one hammer doesn't go all the way back to the full cock notch and starts heading back in the opposite direction?

Behind a dog fine but no way without a dog. Just to many things could go wrong.

I knew the answer but I just checked to verify - if the hammer slips before full-cock it stops at half-cock - no problem. If your finger isn't on the trigger there is no problem.

And by the way, I have over 5,000 rounds through this 1866 non-rebounder without a single issue.

My Pieper 24 gauge with rebounding hammers is the same - if your finger is not on the trigger the hammer stops in the rebound position without hitting the firing pin.

Even in 1866 they had the technology right and in the 1940's they hadn't forgotten it.

Thanks gentleman. I wasn't expecting so many replies. Seems like with everything, there's more than one way to skin a cat. Also seems that to a certain extent the individual gun plays a part in it. I wouldn't have thought about that.

One of the reasons I asked is because here in Massachusetts deer hunting is limited to shotguns. You can use a fully rifled barrel though and some of the old bore rifles are gorgeous. Been thinking about picking one up to replace, or at least augment, my hammerless paradox. The majority of hunting is done by driving and/or still hunting though and there often isn't much time for a shot. Looks like I'd probably be limited to one shot with a somewhat slower followup, unless I went with the cocked and open approach, which I don't think would work well for me.

The interesting facet of hammer gun safe carry/using is the apparent reliance on the safety of hammerless guns.

A cocked action is a cocked action, the safety does nothing to prevent a discharge from a fall or worn parts.

Interesting that the French army ordered guns with no safeties, training their soldiers to rely on empty chambers instead of the safety.

As for flintlocks, the few I have dismantled, English, Austrian and German, had stout springs, thicker than the typical hammer gun spring. They were all made in the last quarter of the 18th century and that might explain the spring dimensions.

I have in the past hunted with both hammer & hammerless guns. The hammer guns were both muzzle & breech loaders, though I never hunted with a flintlock fowler, only a long rifle.
One point that "Virtually Everyone" seems to be forgetting.
The main danger of an accidental firing is not truly the hammer "Jarring" off. The main danger is from the hammer striking an object in a fall hard enough to bust the sear or its notch. The hammer of the hammerless is covered, not exposed to hitting or being hit. I recall once while navigating a hillside stepping on a loose rock covered by leaves. I took a very severe fall while clutching my 12ga FE grade hammerless Lefever. It has a few scratches as a reminder, but Did Not fire. Now I can't say for certain that a hammer gun would have either but the chances would have been far greater.

Also the way I fell had it been carried in an open condition there is a very strong possibility of the strain twisting the lug & causing damage, I "Never Ever" carry a gun open in any kind of rough terrain. If I feel it unsafe to navigate with a loaded & closed gun, I unload, reclose, & then reload & close when on better footing. If approached by other hunters afield I will stop & unload & leave the gun open as long as I am standing, but when I start moving again it is reloaded & closed.

I do not carry the hammer guns cocked if I am moving with it, I would not even if they had a trigger safety. If I were stationary as in a blind or on a stand & see game approaching then & only then will I precock. may have cost me a few shots over the years but at least I'm still here to talk about it & have not been responsible for harming any fellow hunter. I hope & Pray that I never shoot anyone, but should it happen I want it to be intentional as in self defence or defence of a loved one.

Whether hammer or hammerless I do not handle a gun carelessly with dependance upon its safety but try my best to be always aware of where it is pointing. In most cases I would likely have nothing out of the way happen if carrying the gun loaded closed & cocked, ready to fire. There is however always the "UNEXPECTED" which one must take into consideration.

You have brought up a great point. When you are shooting the bull with other shooters, you unload and stand with an open gun. Some people don't seem to familiar enough with their guns to comfortably unload without an instruction book.

This past Sat 19th-- I attended our pheasant club's tower (aka- Euro) shoot. I shot Dad's (mine since 1981) M12 -30" full solid rib field gun- my "money gun" with the Winchester grey AA Handicap Trap shells- 7&1/2 size shot. But for the apres lunch pick-up, I had the great pleasure to partner with a member, just working with a 2 year old male Drattharr (Blitz) he adopted- and he is a straight-up double gun man. He offered me a T. Bland 12 bore hammer gun- Nitro proof barrels choked 1/4 and 3/4- 29" file cut rib, double triggers and straight handed grip. And it is a hammer gun. He showed me the drill- you carry the gun un-breached, with either the right hand or both hammers cocked back, and you only close it when the bird flushes in front of the dog. I did get a shot, last bird of the five the 3 of us shot over rock-solid points- a left to right, flushed a bit early, I never recalled closing the gun, mounting it and swinging the muzzles ahead of the rooster-it dropped in heavy cover, not quite deceased, but no longer airborne either, and Blitz was on it like down-town Charlie Brown. Wow--I had to re-read my copy of Gene Hill's book- Shotgunner's Notebook. I have searched both GI and Gunz'and Roses websites, no listing at for a Bland- London maker. My friend bought it a few years ago at the Vintager's shootfest.

It would be very gauche to ask what he paid for it, I doubt if he would wish to sell it- he also has a no. 2 of a matched pair of 12 bore Woodwards-which I have also shot while in his company afield at the club. But I fell in love with it. The only aspect of such a field carry might be, that when you bring the muzzles upward toward the sky with the gun opened, the shells can drop out. Oh-- this Bland has 2.5" chambers, so I was shooting RST 1 ounce. 7&1/2 shot- I love RST shells.

The trick to keeping the shells in the chambers when you carry cocked and open is to bite the end of the shell hard enough to make it stick in the gun when you bring the muzzles up...Geo

Run with the Fox:
Thomas Bland
Woodcock Hill Inc  
Address: 192 Spencers Rd, Benton, PA 17814
Phone:(570) 864-3242
Glen Baker is the owner

Still makes no sense to me to hunt with the gun open and hammers cocked. Put them on half cock and go hunting! Grouse hunting in Michigan is too heavy cover for such nonsense as an open action.

The whole world does not hunt grouse in MICHIGAN !

SRH

I haven't hunted grouse here in MI since 1980--ditto woodcock. I am not sure about your suggestion as to putting the hammers on the half-cock position. This was my first time rough shooting and using a friend's hammer double gun, so, as they say about when in Rome-etc. Do all English hammer guns such as this Bland have a half-cock hammer position? I can still close my eyes and see the rooster drop, feathers still in the air-Gene Hill had it right, in his story about a gentleman on his deathbed uttering-- "But, I have shot a hellofalot of birds." The stuff of which dreams are made, no doubt. And a fine gun like that Bland--wow!!

Maybe with RST paper hulls, George- but the AA plastic hulls I like in my Winchester "money guns" are as hard as Hillary's heart on 2nd. Amendment rights..

Not trying to offend any one. Hunted pheasant on my preserve last Saturday and did not carry my Elsie hammer gun open. Some days seems like everyone does hunt grouse Michigan!!

Not trying to offend any one. Hunted pheasant on my preserve last Saturday and did not carry my Elsie hammer gun open. Some days seems like everyone does hunt grouse Michigan!!

No problem, Ivandrie. Good hunting to ya'.

All my best, SRH

Get a nut cracker???...Geo

My first shotgun was a single shot hammer gun. I became adept at cocking of the flush. I haven't hunted with my Husky yet, but I have shot clays off my Trius one step, and cocking both hammers and breaking the birds about the same distance as the hammerless guns. Also shot the grouse walk at last years Great Northern with the hammers cocked and broken open. Scored better than most of the rest of the squad with hammerless guns with the safety on. Practice gun handling so you just react.

Good idea, George. The best model going now-a-days is Hillary, but she seems a tad occupied at the nonce. I also visited the Woodcock Hill web site- impressive- fotos and details such as my friend Kirby Hoyt has on his-and that's quite telling. Think I'll start looking for a 12 bore hammer gun with nitro barrels, with dims and fit like m friend's T. Bland- which will most likely NOT be for sale. I know if I owned it, it would be a "keeper".

RWTF; May I recommend you call our friend Kirby. I'm sure he could fix you up with a suitable nitro proofed English hammer gun in short order.

Yes indeed. I went to his website, and he doesn't have any T. Bland hammer guns with nitro proof barrels for sale- now. I bought a 12 gauge LC Smith Field FWE with HOT from him about 16 months ago-he test fired it while we were on the phone, and I still have it-- Kirby is the only gun dealer I trust sight unseen- albeit his excellent photos and accurate descriptions and fair market prices. He also gives us Vets free shipping, how many other dealers do that today.??