Recently I picked a great example of a late Woodstock Tobin that is tight, on face and in very good condition for a 100 year gun, #188XX.

For Ted or anyone else who shoots Tobin shotguns: would you be comfortable shooting factory Kent or Winchester steel target loads through the gun? [I plan to have the 30" barrels opened from F/F to SKT/SKT]

Thx in advance.

I certainly wouldn't shoot steel in any of my Tobins, or any other vintage doubles for that matter.

We don't know the composition of DeMoya Steel



The best of that era was AISI 1211 Rephosphorized Resulfurized Low Alloy Steel to 1045 Carbon Steel, or something in between, all of which would certainly be scored if a steel pellet came in contact with the bore. I would never shoot steel in a non-alloy barrel ie. 4140.

BTW: you might find this of interest, mostly courtesy of Researcher
http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/22641451

I shoot low pressure Kent Pure Gold or Gamebore in my Tobins. Mind you ,I shoot those in all my vintage guns. No steel.

I have some 2-1/2" Gamebore #6 in the red and black boxes but at least one the barrels still needs to be opened.

I think I have owned about a half dozen Tobins, none were high grade, all were cheap, a few were used very hard, and one was not. I have handled lots of them that I didn't own.
My opinion, after discussion with a pair of English trained gunsmiths, and my own experiences, is, Tobins are an antique design, that was satisfactory when most ammunition was black powder. Using high pressure ammuntion in a Tobin, say above 7-8000 PSI, will quickly render the gun unusable, and unrepairable.
I have seen an off face Tobin, but, much more commonly, the frame bends. Between the cut for the lug of the barrel, and all the material hogged out for the inner workings (the single part carried on the sideplates is the sear spring, the rest is located in deep chanels cut in the frame) there simply isn't enough steel left in the frame to support the gun, when used with modern smokeless ammunition.
Steel shot, as noted above, is pretty much out of the question, again, my opinion based on what I have seen. These are old guns, that are weak, and best for very limited use, in perfect conditions, with ammunition that is gentle to the gun. Like every single American sidelock design I am aware of, there isn't much wood left in the head when the gun is all fitted up, and pushing the limits will destroy the head of the stock, as well.
It is a clever little design, with rollers on the ends of the hammers and the cocking rods, and my 16 was simply a wand, that carried well, and did the job on grouse and pheasants here in the midwest when I did my part.
You will have the only one at the range or in the field. Sometimes, with guns, the market gets it exactly right. If you understand why that is with a Tobin, you can likely keep one shooting for a long time.


Best,
Ted

" You will have the only one at the range or in the field. "

I'm located 30 miles north of the old Woodstock factory so these guns are a bit common around these parts.

So then if 8000 psi = 562.46 kg. are the Kent Pure Gold cartridges are TOO hot for a pretty century Standard Grade No. 40 shotgun? Will these soon render it useless? Is it a safe queen I'm cradling?

I'm not about to start loading BH409 for a 12 gauge I'd rather hunt my 20 gauge O/Us.

Kent gamebore 2 1/2" paper shells with felt wads are around 6500psi. That is not too hot.

Gamebore 12ga 2 1/2" Traditional Paper
SKU: G1225TG28
Gamebore 12ga Traditional Paper, box of 25 rns, case of 10 boxes, (1oz - 1295 fps - 6526 psi)


Gamebore 12ga-2 1/2" Pure Gold
SKU: G1225PGF28
GameBore 2 1/2"-12ga-1oz, for English & American doubles, 1oz - 1295 fps - 7832 psi.

Alas another pretty one goes down the road. My Pure Gold cartridges are too hot and the guns condition is too good to mess.

Why do you insist the pure gold are too hot when I've shown you the pressures plus I have used them in mine with no problems. You plan on shooting thousands of rounds.

When I looked at your address, for some reason, I was thinking Ontario, California, USA, not Canada.
They probably are more common in that neck of the woods.
We live in good times, and the ammuntion dilema really isn't one-simply get the right ammunition for the gun. Hell, you can buy 2 1/2" black powder loads, if you are so inclined.

Best,
Ted

Though the Tobin would probably only get out once or twice a season, these Kent Pure Gold cartridges are at the upper end of the limit, are they not?

That's one beautiful shotgun. I would go out of my way to find loads for that Tobin.

With your Tobin No.18,3XX -
A. when locked up, does the barrel lump protrude thru the bottom of the frame?
B. what are the side plate markings?
C. regarding the recocking of the action when the barrels fall, is the forearm "recocking part" male or female?
Just for my own information, I've been trying for many years to determine when certain construction features/details changed.
I have "Woodstock Ont, Canada" address Tobins from 9,4XX to 19,4XX. My No.19,1XX just shows "TOBIN ARMS" on the side plates. Ted S had an American address Tobin several numbers higher than my Canadian 9,4XX, so it appears that Tobin brought some "work in progress" when he "removed to Canada".
The use/load recommendations from Ted S are right on the money. My 16 GA wand gets out once a year (maybe) for 'leaves up' ruffed grouse. Every several years I'll use it for a round skeet down at Golden Triangle Brockville with my low-calorie homebrew reloads.

Evening Ian. It's been a while, hasn't it?

I stand corrected - serial number 188XX therefore the DOM would be 1916. To answer your questions:

A: no, the frame has solid bottom.

B: as it appears on both sides

TOBIN ARMS MFG CO LTD.
< MAKERS >
WOODSTOCK,ONT,CANADA

C: the cocking part appears F though it would be helpful to have a comparison.

The firearm locks up tight, is on face but has received a coat of refinishing sometime in it's history. The light tiger striped walnut sold the gun to me.

At the time Tobin doubles were introduced, 1904, smokeless shotgun powders had been in existence for something like 28 years. Factory loaded smokeless powder shotgun shells began being offered by UMC in 1891. Winchester followed by supplying them to "selected shooters" in 1893 and to the general public in 1894. When the Tobin double was introduced in 1904, the heaviest 12-gauge loads being offered by our North American ammunition companies were 1 1/4 ounces of shot pushed by 3 1/2 drams of bulk smokeless powder or 28-grains of dense smokeless powders such as Infallible or Ballistite. Sure there were many lighter loads being offered, but we all know the North American Nimrods penchant for "more is better" so these guns have seen their share of heavy loads over the last 100 plus years. According to some DuPont shotgun powder booklets in my collection these heavy loads developed 11,700 to 12,600 pounds, above SAAMI specs of today.

By 1922 we were getting shotgun shells loaded with progressive burning powders, Western Cartridge Co.'s Super-X loads leading the way. These brought us higher velocities and in the smaller gauges heavier payloads, all at actually lower pressures. By 1925, we got the 12-gauge 3-inch Super-X load with 1 3/8 ounce of shot. In his 1930 catalogue G.B. Crandall was offering his D-Grade Tobin made for these 3-inch high velocity loads.

Do you consider the paper shells with pressures of 6500 psi to be at the upper limit?
I have no qualms of shooting the plastic hull gamebore through the Tobins with pressures of around 7800 psi.
As mentioned, these guns have had shells put through them through the years that far exceeded 7800 psi.

Could you show us some pictures? All the Tobin shotguns in my collection have the cocking arms protruding from the knuckle as on this gun that is serial numbered about 2000 higher then my highest --

Good morning, Olgrouser.
If you're the gent from whom I bought that Tobin No.19,4XX, then YES, it has been a while. Fondly remember that trip, introduction, visit, and education.
Most Tobin shotguns will exhibit the female forearm. Post Tobin factory closure when Crandall was later assembling "Tobin" shotguns in his OWN Woodstock shop, I think Crandall used up/ran out of an intricate milled steel component part. That part would have been very difficult to make in a one-man band gunshop, so Crandall had to shift gears with a slightly modified cocking system. Hence, the male forearm.
There will be NO doubt whatsoever whether the Tobin forearm is male or female. The Crandall assembled Tobin gun "male forearm" will have two very short round metal rods, maybe 0.25" or slightly smaller diameter and extension, projecting rearwards from the back of the forearm. The back end of the female forearm will NOT have this "male" feature....but will show two rectangular "holes" of short depth.
I suspect Crandall did a LOT of Tobin gun repairs on guns that had seen a lot, and even moderate amounts of use during his mid 1920s to late 1940s Woodstock gunshop ownership. It's also entirely possible that his revision/modification of the original mainspring cocking system was applied during repair to earlier Tobin guns when he ran out of original Tobin manufactured parts.
Hope this helps.

Dave,
You'll get no arguement from me that big number ammunition was available back in the day. But, when I look at a Tobin like this, my Dad and Grandad come to mind. They wouldn't have bought a high grade Tobin, and, they wouldn't have bought one new.
But, due to circumstance, it is the kind of gun they would have bought. My Dad used 6s for most everything, and usually bought what was on sale at the Holiday gas station. He kept an eye on the prices when he filled the car with gas.
Grandpa used 8s for everything except ducks, and then he switched to 4s. He would have bought what was on sale, too.
I think a Tobin fed a steady diet of the highest pressure loads available, then, or now, is going to have a short life.
True, Tobins came into production in 1904, but I think the patent had been around a while. Even using today's steel, I doubt anyone would try to build a new version, now. There is a lot of metal removed off that block of action.
Drew, I had a Tobin the had barrels marked "Krupp". A friend still has it, it is the black pyro-oxidized model.
They are very interesting guns, but, my interests have just moved elsewhere.


Best,
Ted

Morning Ian,

IIRC, it was a Frederick Beesley 12 bore in a leather luggage case that came over on the QE II and the gift of a couple of Gene Hill books.

Thx,

Bert


This is an image of my receiver and fore end [less two serial numbers] if that helps:

OK Bert, now we're on frequency.
It was a William Evans (from Purdey's London) bijou that I still have.
Yes, long time....popped lotsa 209s since then. I eventually completed my Gene Hill library.
I suspect there will be more pics in this thread.
Ian.

Researcher: check yer PMs.
Ian Nixon.

I stand corrected Ian; too many shotguns, too little time. I just remember the maker came from Purdey's.