What are some of your favorite lesser known English, Irish, Scottish makers who you feel deserve more recognition than they have gotten. Thanks, Mark

Docter, Minox, both German....oh I suppose you mean guns don't you??......

Charles Smith Newark upon Trent
Thomas Horsley York
W. Griffiths Manchester
C.S. Rosson

These are a few of my favorites

Pape, William Richards, Durs Egg.

Best,
Ted

I think you have to define 'lesser-known'! One could say that Purdey, Boss, H&H and Woodward are the best known, that the likes of Beesley, Westley Richards, Hussey, Atkin, Lancaster, Churchill etc are well known. So we are perhaps looking more at the provincial makers as being lesser known. In fact, this reflects Rocketman's grading system to a large extent.

My personal favourites would include:

John Harper
John Ross
Edwinson Green
Henry Clarke

Tim

I have been interested in the lesser known British names for some time as I believe that in quality for the money they represent the best value on the double gun market today - Holloway & Naughton, C. S. Rosson, Adsett, Gow, etc. It is difficult to determine which were actually gunmakers and which marketed guns under their name but made by others. Is there any definitive publication that answers this question? I have Boothroyd's book on British gunmakers but his descriptions are generally limited to location and years in business.

James Calderwood Dublin Ireland.

I have a fantastic percussion gun by James Calderwood and its just a beautiful gun in its balance, handling and finish, i have only seen one other gun by the maker and it was much later period gun but equally beautiful in every respect to which we pass judgement on beautiful guns.

If anyone knows of any other guns by the maker i would love to hear about them if they exist they do so in collections or museums where they are not easily examined.

Some book i read years ago suggested he was a maker on a similar level to manton in terms of what he did to transform guns from functional military hardware somewhat adapted for sport to items of real beauty and craftsmanship.

I may be completely wrong in all of this but its just what i have picked up over time.

Lot number 641 here
http://www.scotarms.co.uk/catalogues/684.htm

and the later one in the pantiles gun room Calderwood and son.



which if i had it i would happy part with the wanted sum for.

Not to be confused with the other calderwood operating in the US? possible relation? I don't know - Some US William Calderwood long rifles have Warrented Manton locks and have styling and engraving more like we would see on British guns as apposed to the carvings of a fine american maker, probably just nicely finished guns from the trade in the UK i don't know.. i am not an expert on by any stretch. Just my thoughts.

Harkom

Mortimer, Alex Martin

Skimin & Wood, Thomas Turner

I just picked up a cute little T. Turner and Sons blne 20 ga. Great handling little bird gun with nice modern dimensions.

William Henry Monk of Chester

Charles Hellis (London), Linsley Bros. (Birmingham)

The name on the gun shows up in its value as Brand Value level. You must note that Original Quality grade is independent of brand. The British gun trade was generally able to get X pounds sterling for Y quality new gun with little influence of the vendor's name. There is a world of interesting things in studying the various shops and vendors.

DDA

Al, no there is no definitive reference other than the gunmakers daybook,and then only when they do note if the gun was bought in or not.

I quote, "All the men around here shoot Thomas Horsley made guns and they shoot them well."

I have the book, "Thomas Horsley Gunmaker of York" by David J. Baker. Another great book from an excellent author.

Charles Smith
DH Wallas

C.G. Bonehill. He made a great # of shotguns for U.S. firms prior to the McKinley Tariff. After that he made many shotguns out of his Belmont Gunworks with his name on the midrib shipped to many other countries. He also made guns for the trade.

Alexander Henry of edinburgh, stunning workmanship, beautiful guns. As someone said earlier, some of the irish made guns were amazing too, i've been lucky to handle a few (Kavanagh and Trulock and Harriss) and they were top class, and don't forget Rigby started in Dublin.
George Gibbs of Bristol, probably better know for their rifles, but i presume their shotguns were of a similar high quality. The shooting times magazine asked 10 people they considered the best game shots in the uk, what guns they thought were best. Amazingly several of them stated Edwinson Green were guns they would be very happy to use and they really liked.

There are just so many and I agree with quite a few here. I will add George Fuller of London to the list. I have one of his hammer guns in near mint condition circa 1876. He died in 1880 so is now little known but in his day was in close competition with Boss and Purdey although his output was much smaller. Lagopus.....

William Cashmore often moves under the radar. I believe the firm became quite popular in Australia. I have a sidelock 16 without any engraving whose intrinsic quality I would put up against any other English maker.

Just a few. C.W. Ebrall of Shrewsbury. D Adams of Manchester. W. Richards Liverpool. Hooton & Jones Liverpool.

I have seen a few Linsley Brothers guns, one pair a clone of an H and H Royal pair [later design] but I have not seen a Linsley marked Birmingham or London.

I agree with Joe's "nomination" of Cashmore--Kirkwood Brothers (Boston) sold these, and they are excellent sidelocks (also boxlocks).

Berrien

Other Scottish gun makers would include Charles Ingram, Daniel Fraser, James Dalziel Dougall and James Wallace with whom John Dickson served his apprenticeship from 1806 to 1813.

Thank you all! I recognize more of the names than I thought I would. The possibility of finding a great bargain is possible I hope. I had the honor of handling, but not shooting a pair of Dicksons owned by the late Lenard Bull. They are at the top of the mountain I am hoping to reach the summit someday. And it seems we are capable of discussing fine guns and differing opinions in a polite manner. Pictures are always nice. Respectfully, Mark

Every single maker was capable of producing a "best" gun in the strictest sense of the word. If money was no object the system of outworkers in England made it very easy. I think the best measure of a maker is the quality of work turned out at a price point, especially on the lower end. Here you will discover the real philosophy of the maker. What corners were they willing to cut, where did they draw the line, and so forth. For instance, I am always amazed at prewar guns made by Scott (or Webley & Scott). Most of their models were offered in at least three grades but the main differences were in the amount of engraving and figure in the wood. Underneath, the finish and fitting in the lowest grade is equal to that of the top grade. And I'm yet to find wood on the lowest grade that wasn't carefully laid out and executed. By the same measure though I often see other English examples put up in the crudest fashion, one I happen to own wasn't even case hardened! And I'm sure that very same maker could offer a best when tempted.

Moral to this treatise: just as a car shouldn't be judged by its paint job without looking under the hood, judge a gun by what's really important and not the superficial.

We also have documented evidence that certain makers, (James Purdey, Westley Richards, Holland & Holland, to name a few) were tested to the limit over and over again and performed flawlessly.

Joseph T. Hartwell London
Edwinson Green Cheltenham

For bargain hunting, I offer the following advice.

Assume a BV1 gun = 8. Then BV2 = 6, BV3 = 4, BVB2 = 2, and BV5 = 1. This list assumes equal Original Quality grade and equal Current Condition level. The foregoing says that if you compare a BV1 (Boss/H&H/Purdey/Woodward) to a BV5 (continental made, unsigned masterpiece) of equal OQ and CC the BV5 gun will value 1/8 of the BV1 gun. A BV3 will value 1/2 a BV1. Bargains (mosty bang for the buck) in quality are in the lower BV's.


Buy the highest CC you can possibly afford. IMO, CC trumps both BV and OQ.

DDA

J D Dougall

Another vote for Edwinson Green, Cheltenham.

I've seen a few GE Lewis Guns I thought were rather nice..
usually 7lb+ pigeon or duck type guns, but I always liked the look of them...would make nice looking clays guns , I thought.
cheers
franc

Boswell and Leeson

I don't know, but is I Hollis & sons a lesser known name to anyone here ?
I have 2 of their guns & find them both to be well made.
Most of their output went to South Africa, Canada & Australia so I hear. Sold in the colonies so to speak. This being the case means they must be durable types of guns as they would be used hard & wont be sent back to the makers for service like a lot of guns in England were.
I think they are generally under appreciated.
O.M

Scott, since they made a very large percentage of the guns y'all are listing. Only a handful of names had the ability to make an entire gun in house. If Scott (or Webley & Scott) didn't make the entire gun for the name then they provided a huge number of actions and barrels for the trade to finish. And that seems to include a lot of the London trade.