I am humbled by the wealth of knowledge here, so I come to you all with a new situation for me- I don't know what gun I would like to buy! Funny isn't it? Let me explain. I know a fair bit and have owned a number of sxs's in the $200-$1200 range, my best to date is the J.P. Clabourgh SLE I have in the safe now. But my wife shocked me today by suggesting that if I sold the Clabourgh, an M1A, and use another $1000 she will let me spend, I would have about $4000 to spend on a double of my dreams. Talk about floored! Only thing is, I don't know much of anything regarding doubles worth that much. I have drooled over the pages of magazines and such, but never thought I would be able to own for for decades to come. So I come asking advice- with the below info, what brands would you suggest I research?

$4000 budget (might sell another gun if the double was absolutly perfect, but would prefer to spend no more then 4000)

12 gauge

Prince of Wales grip

Shoot modern ammo preferably, at a minimum 2.75" chambers for light reloads

And preferably a hammer

Nice wood would be a bonus too

I love the looks of the AyA #2, but it looks like they are only English grips. And its not a hammer, which would be my absolute ideal. I recently read about Beretta's 400 series hammer guns from the early 50's but can not findany for sale anywhere so I don't know availability/ price.

What about a sleeved English double? Can they shoot modern loads? I have read a lot about English doubles, and realize that name is often not a total indicator as to quality, and that my pet light loads will shoot out of damascus 2.75" chambers (I've fired close to 1000 out of old doubles). So a 2.75" chambered old English gun would certainly be a consideration for me, sleeved or not.

Am I asking for the impossible? Like I said, I'm a novice to this price point of doubles, so thank you very much for any and all advice! And if I'm crazy, just say so lol

Not impossible at all. Look to the Italians. If you look around you can find a very nice Italian hammer gun that will digest anything you feel like pulling the triggers on. In that price range you should be able to find a Bernardelli, or one of the lesser known names that they, or other firms, produced. I have owned a San Giorgio, which I have been told was made by Bernardelli, for several years, and shoot it in S x S hammer gun events, with over-the-counter loads. It's as safe with them as an 870 Remmy. Mine was made in 1973.

What you want is out there. I'm sure others will suggest some other options, too.

Some sleeved Brit guns have had chambers lengthened and have been reproofed at 2 3/4". That'd be one possibility. You might have to look a bit to find one with hammers, however.

Bernardelli made some decent hammerguns, well within your price range. They're modern so no problem with chamber length.

Here's the details on mine, from a post by the previous owner several years ago.



Good luck with your search. SRH

The way things are going on in this country and the world you may want to keep the M1A. It may prove to be more useful down the road. Sort of like a fire extinguisher.

Sounds like you may be looking for one of the old Live Pigeon Hammer Trap Guns. Most had longer chambers and were sturdily built and almost always stand re-proof for nitro. Not for sale but I have a 30 inch Damascus nitro 2 3/4" chambered hammer trap gun with half pistol grip by W.J.Jeffery. They are out there. Half the fun is in the hunt so good luck. Leave enough over for some flowers for the wife.

A sleeved gun would be cheaper and almost certainly nitro proofed for modern ammo. Lagopus.....

Thanks! I've been looking more into the Italian doubles and they sure are beautiful! A ton of new names to me too, and that's just from what I've found so far on gunbroker and gunsamerica! Besides the ones named above, are there others I should be particularly searching for?

Also, besides gb/ga/guns international, are there other good sights to watch? and here of course

And tanky, there are others in the safe that will work better then the M1A if God forbid they are needed.

gunsamerica is also a good place to shop...

it is the oldest internet based guns for sale web site, going back as far as 1997, before many of us even had a pc...

That's what he meant by "ga", ed................. gb - (Gunbroker), ga - (GunsAmerica), etc.

What's the matter, can't decipher writing that is not in all "caps"?

SRH

I apologize, I should have spelled them out. Gunbroker is my go to for all guns, with guns international and gunsamerica coming in close behind

This one caught my eye, it's a waterfowl/pigeon gun with a beautiful stock, but the stock is a Monte Carlo. I understand that is to essentially have it shoot higher then it looks so that the target is always fully in sight, correct? All my shotguns have been straight combed, only some rifles have had Monte Carlo stocks.
http://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-fo...6134AF5DBE1C8AC

Unless you are shooting rising birds/targets, such as box birds or trap targets, a high comb that causes you to see too much of the rib is going to be a great handicap to you. On other presentations you would be required to "float" the bird above the muzzle. This is not consistent with fine wingshooting.

I understood you wanted a hammer gun, as in "exposed hammers".

SRH

I'm looking at all of the doubleguns I can find on web-sites but I thought you said you wanted a prince of wales grip? And unless you are consistently hunting behind good dogs, don't buy a hammer gun.

For Four thousand and if buying carefully you can probably find a nice Parker LC Smith or Fox.

Boats.

Stan, I would prefer an exposed hammer gun certainly. I was browsing and that one caught my eye as the walnut is beautiful! I am not dead set on exposed hammers if a hammerless sidelock really catches my eye. The hammer guns with sculpted fences are especially pleasing to my eyes.

Treblig, yes I would prefer a PoW grip. For some reason PoW gripped sculpted fenced hammer guns just look really good to me. I know they are not really the most ideal for hunting or target use but oh well, there is just something about them that looks beautiful. But again, I'm not dead set on it, if a perfect hammerless comes up I'd seriously consider it

Beretta also made hammer doubles under the MiVal name (or something close to that). V. Bernardellis are great guns for the money, but the POW grip may be hard to find on a hammer gun. You could get a pretty nice Parker or Birmingham hammer double for your budget, but likely to be Damascus or twist barrels. Your best bet for a modern hammer double (other than Bernardelli) is probably going to be a used Spanish gun from one of the lesser known makers. I picked up a Sarasqueta hammer 20 last year for pretty reasonable money, with 32" barrels and 3" chambers.

My advice is to slow down and be sure what you want.

Your first post said you liked the looks of the AyA No 2 but you wanted a hammer gun with a prince-of-wales grip. The gun you linked to is a hammerless gun with a very tight pistol grip and a Monte Carlo stock. Most bad gun purchasing decisions are made when you jump and buy a gun that is not what you really want.

I suggest that you go to one or more SxS shoots which have multiple exhibitors so that you can see what is available before you jump and buy.

My wife and I own a number of shotguns - pump, semi-autos, O/U's, and SxS's. Included are two hammer guns, one a 16 gauge built in 1866 with a fairly tight pistol grip which requires low pressure 2 1/2" loads and the other a 1940's Belgian 24 gauge with a straight grip - needless to say neither uses easy to find or inexpensive cartridges but I've been reloading for 42 years so I keep them fed without issue.

I've shot over 5,000 rounds through the 1866 Joseph Lang and broken clays and killed a bunch of quail with it (my favorite quail gun). I've broken clays and killed quail and woodcock with the 24 gauge. I really enjoy shooting these guns but you should find someone to let you shoot a hammer gun a fair amount before you decide that you want to buy one.

I also have AyA No 2's in 12 and 20 gauge and when serious shooting is to be done these are the guns I go to.

FYI, Bernardelli Brescia 12ga, 30", English grip (half of a composed pair):

[img:center][/img]

Thanks Fly, you are right. I am finding the more I browse, the more looks interesting... I should just buy one of each lol!

Like this one, which is a hammerless with a bit fuller pistol grip than a PoW, but not as tight as the last
http://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-fo...un_id=100598597

I'll sit back and ponder awhile, I'm not in any big hurry to buy. My next sxs match isn't until early May. I had an an ideal in my minds eye for years, but it was never finalized as I figured it would be decades before I could buy one. Now that it has become a possibility, I need to finalize my ideal I guess. That why this forum is great- y'all point out what I need to think over more. Thank you!

Anyone have a picture of the Beretta hammer guns? I saw a black an white ad on Google images, but not the real thing

Beretta Mi-Val at Steve Barnett, but shown as sold:

Here's an old thread on Beretta hammer guns:
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=261842&page=1

It seems to me Claycrusher that you have narrowed it down to either an Italian or Spanish gun. OK, I'll keep looking.

Take a look at Classic Doubles/ Kirby Hoyt.He has great guns pretty fairly priced and is a great guy to work with.

That Beretta hammer gun Steve Barnett sold was mine a couple years ago. I wonder what he sold it for.... I think I paid $700 for it! Great gun... very much like the Bernardelli hammer guns.

Here are some other gun I've owned that might serve you well....


Gasperini Hammer Gun



The hammer gun I'm holding here is a Thomas Wild back-action hammer gun with 30" bbls and a rounded pistol grip. I sold it to a good friend and have been trying to buy it back ever since.


Here is a Bernardelli 20ga... though, with your budget, you could get one of their higher grade guns.


Here is the Beretta that has already been posted (the one sold by Steve Barnett). I sold this gun a few years back.



For hammerless, you may want to search for an AYA #53 or #56. They have pistol grips much often that the #2s.

Adam, I have what appears to be your Thomas Wild's twin in 16 gauge, although mine has an English grip.

No exactly, cc1900. Monte Carlo is the solution to a "high" comb and a "low" heel. The top of a conventional stock is a straight line at some angle to the extended rib line/sight line. There is only so much you can do with that set-up. For example, the conventional stock will have only one location that is the "face drop" needed by the shooter. If the shooter has an imprecise mount and needs a section, as opposed to only one point, of stock top of "drop at face" he requires, the Monte Carlo is the solution. Also, the Monte Carlo can rise toward the butt so that felt recoil to the face is lessoned.

True that Monte Carlos are more common/popular on rifles, but that does not mean Monte Carlo has no place on shotguns.

Have you been fitted for stock dimensions?

Have you established the handling characteristics you want?

Have you decided the primary purpose for this gun?

Have you read Dig Hadoke's books?

DDA

Just a note, CC1900 on hammer guns: Used one for a couple of seasons, but found it did not suit me in the field because I could not cock both hammers with one sweep on the thumb. Perhaps one of the modern hammer guns that have a safety would work as you could carry it cocked (as, indeed, all hammerless guns are carried).

A number here on the board say they carry their hammer guns open and close them in the field. But, some hammer guns will not open when cocked -- the top lever can't move past the right hammer. And, I would not want to carry a gun in the field with the action open.

Some just shoot one barrel and then cock the other. I'm so slow the birds would be long out of range when I tried that :-)

Regards, Tim

Reading all the old literature I can find on the subject I am yet to find anyone mentioning carrying a hammer gun opened with the hammers cocked. I have found Frank Forrester mentioning cocking on the flush. Others, (I believe it was Greener) have mentioned carrying the gun cocked. Accepting the limitations of a hammer gun I carry it closed with the hammers down and hope to get one back with a wild flush--sometimes I do and sometimes I'm too late. If behind dogs on point I cock them before walking in. Remember, all hammerless guns are cocked, they're just out of sight so out of mind. I never put the safety off until actually mounting the gun but I often encounter expletive who walk around all day with the safety off! Perhaps this is even more dangerous than carrying a hammer gun cocked. At least in this case just a glance will remind the shooter of his responsibility.

It's a personal choice and often debated.

I carry my Hammer guns cocked cartridges in the chambers gun open. Same way I carry a Hammerless gun . Hammer gun you don't have to take the safety off when you close it.

Personally very uncomfortable in the field with someone who's gun is loaded closed and dependent on the safety. Some use good muzzle direction discipline even so open gun is a 2nd level of safety. Many SxS guns mechanical safety is not all that reliable. If she's open she can't go off.

Boats

Those that carry the guns open in the field are putting a lot of pressure on that little soldered on fore end lug under the barrel. Maybe my mechanically inclined excuse for a brain is overly concerned with that, but I just can't do it. I see sporting clay shooters carrying a heavy barreled O/U open, over their shoulder with the buttstock just "bouncing" as they go, and cringe when I see it. If you carry it open with one hand under the receiver all the weight of both ends is bearing on that little lug. Trip and fall with that gun action open and what is likely to happen? It won't fire I don't guess, but it may not survive the fall either. Not criticizing anyone for trying to be safe, but just saying.

You engineers and professional smiths, am I wrong about this?

SRH

Neither an Engineer or Professional Smith but I have only one word for carrying a gun around open & that's "DON"T".
As Stan said you're putting undue stress on the lug & as in the case of some guns if it doesn't have a good barrel check you put a lot of stress on the forend lug. This is more apt to be the case with a hammer gun than hammerless but can occur with either. Some hammer guns in particular will open until the forend iron contacts the bottom of the frame. When carrying such a gun open there is constant pressure of the forend pushing forward on it's lug. I have an old H Pieper 12ga hammer with a loose forend lug which most likely came about from either constantly opening it too hard or carrying it about open, can't really say which as it was like this when I got it.
As to safety, the primary concern regarding safety, assuming a responsible person to begin with, is the "UnExpected". What's to say that when/if you fall or whatever the gun is not going to snap shut. In this case you then have a closed gun, hammers cocked & exposed to being struck & no safety to help prevent the triggers being tripped if something shout hit them.
Personally I feel a hammerless is the safest, a rebounding hammer next & non-rebounder last. I have hunted with all three types without shooting myself or anyone else so far. Hopefully that will continue.

Open until in position to shoot is the rule many places including preserve were I do most of my dog training all target clubs I know of and a couple of Quail Plantations were I have been a guest. In theory it may wear the lug but considering I rotate between fair number of SxS guns doubt very much if one is going to show any wear in my lifetime. Target guns shot extremely high round count have been carried that way the whole time. Slamming open and closed is the biggest cause of problems

I don't think there is any other way to be sure the firing pin can't come Into contact with the primer with a Hammer gun

Boats

Don't write off buying a fine antique British hammer gun for $4,000, particularly if you are willing to buy quality and not the name, Damascus or sleeved rather than original steel barrels. No one offers a more reliable product in this space than Toby Barclay of Heritage Guns. Here is a very nice hammergun for under $4000:

http://www.heritageguns.co.uk/Williamson%20RUL%2012/Williamson%20RUL%2012%20Details.htm

You have to do what you feel is right, Boats, but I would not hunt in a place that told me I had to walk in the brush and behind dogs with my doublegun open. When I shoot sporting, or five stand, or wobble trap, or any clay bird games I stand there with my O/U open, as you must. When I get back in my cart I close the action and stow the gun in a ScabbardTech holder. But, there is a big difference between that and walking around in vines, briars, slippery mud and who knows what else with an open gun, IMO.

Best, SRH

I don't carry a hammer-gun with the barrels down. If I do I seem to drop shells all over the woods. If I carried open but cocked i would worry about falling and the gun going off. I carry with the hammers down and cock one side when a bird gets up. When I have a point I will cock both hammers. I don't know what the old guys used to do, but I suspect they did just like I do...Geo

Absolutely true. I bought a very nice Birmingham hammer gun from a member here a few years ago for less than $2K. It is a Lacey with twist barrels, no info ever found about the maker. When I took it in to an old school gunsmith for a strip/clean/inspection/pad, he pronounced it one of the best-made guns he had worked on. I will add that the hammers on that old Brummie are a lot easier to cock than the hammers on my American, Italian, Spanish, and Belgian hammer doubles. The Brit gun does feel different.

"Claycrusher1900," if I were in search of a hammer-gun within the price range you suggest, my focus would be on branded guns from makers or retailers W & C Scott, Army & Navy, and Charles Daly. You will probably locate more damascus-barreled guns than those affixed with steel sets, but there is nothing wrong with that attractively patterned barrel material or limiting when combined with their usual 2.5-inch (the elder 2-5/8 inch chambered gun will work too) chambers. I shoot the 2.5-inch cartridge (and in 2-5/8 inch chambers) more than the 2-3/4 inch cartridge, even in guns originally chambered for the longer cartridge. Beware of guns that have had their chambers lengthened; personally, I summarily reject them. The short cartridge, which was and is still to-day chambered in a number of bore sizes, is available commercially and in a wide selection of loadings that match most needs.

Have careful measurements (or request them to be) taken of barrel wall thicknesses and also look carefully for dents or for signs of them having been raised, and for riveling along barrel surfaces, examine the barrel set as well for loose ribs and rust and for its remotest indication, and consider the quality and extent of repair work, if any, and determine if it has been too excessive or extensive for safety concerns more than for the consideration of aesthetics. A famous gun-writer once wrote when asked about the three most important aspects to be inspected when considering a double-barreled gun on offer. I paraphrase his informed response: "the barrels, the barrels, and the barrels."

By the way, because 10-bore guns were not employed as much as the smaller bores of their heyday or thereafter, these larger bore guns are usually in better condition than their contemporaries, and their chambers can be reduced and re-chambered anew to accept the 12-bore (2-1/2 inch, 2-3/4 inch, etcetera) cartridge by chamber sleeves, if the gun is reasonably light enough (and not a rarity or highly valued collectible) to make it a sensible conversion.

I would further recommend that you buy the English-made gun here rather than overseas. It will be less expensive and more convenient to buy domestically, especially if you are careful about from what auction or retail company, or from whomever, you make your purchase. You will find your Daly gun here, of course.

If you are not comfortable making your purchase without expert advice, or perhaps feel you are not familiar enough with hammer-guns or a particular one to take a decision, you might consider consulting a gunsmith or gun-maker in the States who is known to be expert, or alternatively expert as a purchasing / condition review agent on behalf of a potential purchaser, and also one that will help you for a reasonable dollar amount.

I have personally purchased excellent though carefully chosen exemplars of the aforementioned makes over the years and have not only greatly enjoyed pride of ownership, but also the indefinable excitement of putting them to purposeful use afield, and to the challenge at the range; so I feel quite confident in commending them for your consideration. And surely, the romance of owning and using a fine hammer-gun to good purpose is not to be discounted.

Good luck with your search and final selection. Please post photographs of your ultimate choice.


Regards,

Edwardian

I recall meeting Gene Hill many years back at the Iowa Governor's Pheasant Hunt. Chatting with him after lunch, I asked him the hammergun question, knowing that he hunted with them from time to time. In my case, I'd started with a hammer single, which isn't the easiest thing for a kid to cock, especially on a cold day with gloves on. But we never cocked those until the bird was in the air. Hill said he carried his hammerguns loaded, cocked, and open. Hunting something like prairie grouse, where cover is typically shin high, I think that can work. But the problem of stress on the gun aside, clearly if you're hunting grouse and woodcock, or even pheasants in heavier cover, what's likely to happen is that you're going to get some crud in your gun and you'll find that it won't close when you want it to.

Thank you all for the advice, you have given me lots to think over. I would primarily be using the gun for various types of clays, and a day or two of hunting a year. I'm primarily a deer hunter so don't bird hunt much. I've been looking at many dozens of English hammer guns, and while I like them, I keep getting drawn back to the Beretta 627 EELL and the AyA 53 or 56. I know they are hammerless, but they both greatly appeal to me. So I think I will go in that direction, and perhaps down the road get a solid shooter hammer of lesser make. Of course, none of the above models are easy to find, especially an AyA with anything other than an English grip! And some of the AyA engraving looks nice, others not as much too me.

So if anyone sees or knows of a 627 EELL or a 53/56 for sale I'd greatly appreciate hearing about it!

Thank you all for the excellent advice and thoughts!

Good decision you won't regret. Let the hammer gun come along in due time.

This #56 has the engraving pattern I want, but is a single selective trigger. I've read that these are far less ideal as there are reliability problems. Is that correct?

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=509506659

And another question. I measured my Clabrough which fits me well, and it has drops of 1 5/8" and 2.75". How much variation can I go or do I need those exact numbers? For example, I saw a Beretta with 1 3/8" and 2" measurements- would that much difference make it fit significantly worse? Thanks!!

That AyA is a 12 gauge with a beavertail and a single trigger, so not the classic SxS that you may want. But probably pretty good as a clays gun, which is on your list.

Excellent decision. Both are beautiful guns but I like the AyA a whole lot better.