I recently purchased a W.W. Greener facile princeps G-grade gun in 10-gauge at auction. Serial number puts production around 1912. I don't yet have receipt of the gun, and was wondering if anyone could point me towards either a DGJ article or on-line source of info on Greener's heavy water fowlers. This one has 31" steel barrels but so far I know precious little else. Engraving and case colors appeared very fine and original and hence my unwise purchase of a second 20th century British 10 gauge (the other being a William Ford I posted about a while back.)

Frame and fences are filed up like this one from an earlier Julia's auction, (http://jamesdjulia.com/item/3360-358/)but mine has full engraving, whereas the Julia's piece is totally plain. I haven't seen the proofs either (I know...very rash).

Edit - 9/18/15 Greener is now in hand. Lots of pictures posted below.

Some pictures from the listing:

Try Graham Greener's "The Greener Story". That is a fine looking gun. Two and five eighths inch chambers? Will you shoot ready made or load brass black powder shells for it?...Geo

I don't yet have Graham's book, but since this is my 2nd Greener double, I guess I need to get it.

My hope is this has heavy proofs and long chambers given the long barrels (pics show 31" but not sure yet...will post pics when it arrives.) I would be very surprised if one this late isn't nitro proofed.

So I'm hoping for 1-1/2 oz proofs, but who knows.

Any other suggestions for pics and info on post 1900 10 gauge Greeners? Particularly G-graded ones?

Email Graham Greener through the Greener wenbsite, in the past he has been very helpful at providing information on particular serial numbers.

Buy the book from him and he will autograph it to you

Is the grade marked on the trigger guard as other FH guns are? (My 16 is marked FH50)

Just ordered an autographed copy from Safari Press. Thanks.

A beautiful example of a scalloped boxlock!

Greener 10s also have a place in American history as one of the favorite choices of lawmen in the Old West for riot and guard purposes. Presumably they used much plainer models than yours, and most of them I've seen in pix or museums were hammer guns. (Nothing quite as "sobering" as those two big clicks.....).

I think G is not a grade of Greeners, but a symbol as to the action type. The grade in that period would be a number which was actually the price. A G70 would be an Imperial , with G the action type , and 70 guinea gun. A G60 would be a Royal, with the G type action, and a 60 guinea gun. Later , as the prices went up over the years, the number of the grades went up.

Off topic, but . . .

I have an 1891 Greener. This was basically a barn-find. I had originally planned to restock this gun with a nice English Walnut blank I have. One thing led to another and I decided to refinish the original stock. The old finish was nearly black and I had no idea what to expect or what it would look like under the old finish. I am amazed. The wood has the figure of the photos above. I'm in the process of using the Purdy's Warthog finish. I'll post some pictures when I'm finished.

Is a G action the same as Facile Priceps? In my mind they are two entirely different actions although outwardly similar in physical appearance. The insides of a G gun are WAY different from a FP.
Does your new 10 have ejectors?
By the way, it's a beautiful gun. Gorgeous actually. I'm a huge fan of Greeners, remarkably well made and finished, and somewhat under appreciated.

Which G grade is it, the grades did run up to G70, but there were some solid working grades in the 1,2 , 3, etc?

G-guns are essentially FPs with either Unique or Self-Acting ejectors.

The gun shown most likely features the Unique ejector system.

The ejectorwork on G-guns requires some additions to the guts, but the internals are still set up like a Facile Princepts.

Grade wise, I think it's a G-45.

Beautiful gun. I would love to find one with a top safety.

OWD

The listing's very brief description said G.3. for the grade.

As I confessed in the first post, this was a rather rash purchase for me in that I did not have much information on the gun. I like Greeners and this one had great condition wood at the head of the stock, and nice original metal finish and engraving, so I'm taking a chance.

I'll post more once I have it in hand. Thanks for the comments so far.

Very pretty gun, lovely shape to the action and the fit and finish look fabulous.

Depending on the year/era, G90 and G125 guns were made.

The G1, G2 & G3 era were before the G60, G70 naming era.

Looking at a 1900 W.W. Greener catalog. In 1900 the G3 was only surpassed in quality by the G Imperial grade.

Description of a G3 from the 1900 catalog: "Best quality gun, engraved and finished in first class style. The lock, cocking, firing, and extracting mechanisms are all contained in the breech action - a sure proof of their simplicity."

A G3 is a higher grade than the G2, G1, G, M1 & M.

I received the WW Greener today. Very happy with it!

Some quick observations:

Gun is #2 of a pair. Grade is G.3. SN 55781 puts production in 1907 per Greener's book. (Matched pairs is seeking #55789, so close!)

Proofs (see pic) are Nitro Proof for 1 1/2 ozs. Chamber length isn't marked as long (regular 10 over "c").

Barrels are 30" and perfect! Has ejectors. Engraving is very nice. Trigger guard was cased not blued, based on finish on inside of bow.

No unpleasant surprises. I'd hoped for longer chambers, but that wasn't based on anything but optimism. Weight is 9 lbs even on the digital bathroom scale.

Butt was cut and later respliced. Too bad as the original wood was quite nice. Pad is a not-so-appropriate Pachmayr. Has engraved plate bearing initials "THC", writen as a "T" over an "H" over a "C".

I've posted pics below. What do you all think? (I'm very happy with it, but if something looks off (besides the butt), please share it.

CJF

More pics

What a beautiful gun. Makes me feel better just looking at it after a bad week.

Very sorry to hear you had a bad week. Hope the weekend and next week are an improvement.

I am not sure that I ever posted the additional information that Mr.Greener was kind to share.

This gun "was started the 16th of May, 1907 and finished on 12th September of the same year. It has a Facile Princeps type action and is an ejector model grade "G 3". It was made to the same specification as gun no. 54812 so it may be the no. 2 gun of a composed pair but it is not recorded as such since pairing is usually recorded. It is a 10 bore with 30 inch Sandvik steel barrels. Stock dimensions when made were 3-1/8 by 1-5/8 by 14-3/8, 14-1/4 and 14-3/4 inches, half pistol hand, normal cast of 3/16 of an inch. It was engraved with scrolls by Horrocks. The G3 grade is essentially a 'best' gun and cost 45 guineas when originally made. It was sold to 'National', probably an agent or gunshop.'

How kind of Mr. Greener to help with my inquiry.

Thanks, CJF. Very fine looking gun. Couple questions come to mind.

If it were not the number two gun of a matched or composed pair, why would it have the "2" under the forend?

And, what is the meaning of the three different LOP measurements he provided? I read that the butt was cut and respliced, but the info from Greener says "when made".

Thanks, SRH

Stan;
I may be wrong on this but I believe when you see three measurements like this on the pull they are normally given as to the heel, mid-butt & toe.
As the butt has been cut & re-spliced these may not "Jive" any more.

Makes perfect sense, Miller. Thanks. Gives a good indication of pitch when that is not given.

SRH

Hi Stan, that is a grand gun, I love a nice Greener.
Did Graham mention who filed the Action?
Was it a Mr Camm?
Graham was a pure gentleman & very nice to me when I inquired about my 1901 Jones Under lever action Hammer.
It was only a medium quality (35 Guinea) gun, but he mentioned it was a special Order Gun, & was made by the "A" team,who normally worked on the more costly guns.Mr Camm filed my action, & those percussion scooped out fences are just wonderful.
How does she shoot?
cheers
franc

Stan - I was also wondering about the different LOP measurements. I'll go with Miller's perspective, as it sounds reasonable. (If there had been only two measurements I was thinking maybe front/back trigger, but not with three figures.)

Franc - Sorry, I don't know who filed the action, only the engraver.

Claudio, my friend, the "three dimension" length of pull figures are from the center of the front trigger to the heel, toe, and center of butt. I think the angle of the butt is simpler, and the distance from the "wall" to the muzzle is the most simple. Oddly, this British system leaked over to Parker Brothers.

8-bore;
Just one point of clarification, should it not be heel, center of butt & toe to keep things in order. As the middle measurement is the shortest, that would be center, heel (next longest) would thus be first measurement & Toe (longest) would thus be third measurement. Thus the order would be Heel, Mid & Toe .
I do totally agree the simple measurement of muzzle to wall to determine pitch is much simpler & more meaningful to most of us.

What a beautiful gun! Great job! A greener with the greener safety is definitely on my must have list

Are Greener side safeties automatic, that is, do they move to SAFE upon opening?

SRH

Mine don't...Geo

Some do and some don't. I have read that W.W. preferred to make them non-automatic.

I think I would like a Greener side safety if it was manual.

SRH

Hi Bill......wrong CJ

Missed you at the southern, hope your doing well

All best

CJ

Greener side safeties have never been automatic, but they are the worst idea for a safety ever. I tried to use one on one of the cleanest, most pristine Grade F's you can imagine, 28" semi-pg, dt, splfe. I fumbled with that thing throughout a hot dove shoot. Sold it as soon as I could.

I have seen an example where a really good 'smith put a metal spacer under the button to raise the button well above the surface of the wood. It was quite a bit easier to use, but still aggravating.

Worth a mention: when I received this gun, the stock finish was flaking and dry. I decided to do a low-impact refinish on the wood that really turned out well-very original looking. But I had no idea how to get the buttstock off the frame. So I rang up Jack Rowe and told him my predicament "No problem" he said, "I'll walk you through it". Every step was concise and easily done with his wonderful guidance in that British accent. A true gentleman and superb gunsmith, Jack Rowe. Rest gently in the bosom of God, Old Prince.
JR

I have never tried a Greener side safety gun, they kinda look nice to me, but it might be hard to re educate your thumb that's used to a top safety.
Does the side safety give any extra strength to the head of the stock to prevent cracking?...I don't know the workings, but thought it might .
cheers
franc