I have reviewed most of the information on this site about damascus and it appears there are two schools of thought, "I shoot damascus" and "I don't shoot damascus." The more prudent among us appear inclined to relegate these old shotguns to wall hanger status. While I consider myself a prudent individual, nonetheless, I joined the "I shoot damascus" club last weekend when shot 75 rounds of factory low-pressure loads through my circa +1907 (patent date of 1907) Meriden hammer gun and I enjoyed it enough that I think I will likely continue to shoot it.

My shotgun appears to have the less desirable "twist" construction (photos below). It also appears to have some spots where one band was joined to another (second photo). Also, interestingly the barrel block appears to be of damascus construction too (third photo). I have read elsewhere that it was common to fake the damascus pattern on fluid steel barrels of that era as damascus was regarded as higher quality. I would like to see photos of a replicated damascus barrel should anyone care to share.

According to contemporaneous advertising, the barrels on my shotgun were made in Belgium. I think Parker likewise used Belgian produced damascus. Many opine that the Belgian damascus was not as strong as the English damascus; however, it is interesting that American manufacturers resorted to the Belgian produced barrels and did so well into the smokeless powder era. After these Belgian barrels were delivered, does anyone know just how much work (e.g., join, regulate, bore and finish) was typically done in the United States to mate them to the shotgun? My Meriden bears no indication of factory proofing. Does this mean it was not proofed, or simply that some American manufactures did not mark their guns with a proof?

So please, anyone who is so inclined please feel free to let me know I am not alone in shooting my old damascus barrel double gun and if you do shoot damascus, what type of barrel you are shooting, how often you shoot it, loads (factory or reloads) and how you use your damascus gun. If you are able please post some photos of your shotgun.

Thanks-

Doug

Doug, my advice please go out and buy a MEC reloader. They are simple to operate and from the chamber pressure tables provided by all the powder manufacturers you can pick a low pressure load or you can load black powder. That is after you have your barrels tested by a competant gunsmith that is versed in the ways of "twist" construction!!!
The nice thing about a double is you don't have to do an extensive re-sizing of the shell like you must with a pump or an auto-loader. The double's chambers size the shell for you. On re-loading presses there is a re-conditioning station and that's all you really need for your double.
All the best

Syracuse Arms 12 ga from early to mid 1890s; just a very few rounds thru it (maybe as many as five or six). Perhaps it is what I claim not to possess--namely a "collector" gun. Two Lefevers from turn of the 20th C.; one has maybe 125 rnds thru it, few squads of skeet; one 50 rnd. sporting course; the other I've shot exactly twice; high and low at station 2, broke em both, haven't shot it since. Only one of the three that didn't get the remote firing precaution initially; I must be getting cocky. All reloads fast smokeless behind 7/8 oz. producing approx. 5Kpsi. I find social opportunities to shoot these guns limited by the "looking askance" factor.

jack

I recently purchased a 1902 LC Smith Field grade with twist barrels with the intent mainly to shoot blackpowder loads in her. Lots of people go the low pressure smokeless route. The barrels rang like a church bell and the bores were mirror like. I thought I had that perfect vintage gun.

So she was mainly a secondary "fun" shooter. I planned on shooting a four of five boxes through her per year. I also have some 3 1/2 dram loads made up to see how she patterns with them.

However, I recently had the gun reblued and my 'smith discovered the right barrel was starting to give way, naturally where my fingers would be.

She looks wonderful in her new party clothes but I have chosen to retire her. A shame, I shot her very well and had planned on some blackpowder bismuth loads out in the dove field this fall. I am now looking for a replacement and looking towards steel barrels, maybe not so vintage 1920's or later. I'd like to stick with a classic name, Smith or Parker but maybe something newly made import, not sure on that thought. I even looked at Davide Perdersoli's 20 ga. breechloaders. Enjoy your Meridan! I still have a 10 ga. with lamanated steel barrels that will be sounding off on the trap range with blackpowder next weekend!

Two sets of LC barrels on e-bay right now
http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?from=R40&satitle=L.C.+Smith&category0=

My magic gun is a 16ga Parker hammer O frame twist barrels circa 1889 which I shoot with low-pressure 700X handloads and don't give it another thought. I consider myself prudent.

http://nitroproof.photosite.com/Album3/

About ten years ago I picked up a damascus 12ga. LC Smith circa 1894. I was banned from shooting it at my local club "damascus guns aren't safe", so I had it proofed in England in Nov.'98. Since then I've shot thousands of low pressure reloads at skeet and SC's. The gun was re-color cased and the barrels refinished.
While sending a gun to England for proofing isn't very practical having the proof certificate to show doubters is great.
I need to take some new photos for my photo site.
Craig

Craig-

Thanks for sharing the photos of your shotgun--she is a beaut! The damascus is pretty hard to miss on that one.

I shot my Meriden at a club and nobody said a thing and if I was getting dirty looks...they must have been behind my back. Several folks did go up to the rack and look at the shotgun, I think the hammers attracted more attention than my subtle damascus.

As for others' observations, I agree I should probably invest in a reloader and "roll my own" but for now I am using a known 5000psi 7/8s oz load. Being a humble Meriden, I am confident that the gun was not valuable enough to have ever been reblued, re-cased, or restored, so the gun's over all good cosmetic and near new (tight) mechanical condition gave me a comfort level in shooting it.

I suppose nobody proofs guns in the US, correct?

Here is what I mean about the condition of the Meriden:
Very clean bores-


Strong original case color

dbadcraig~
Thanks for the compliment on my Elsie. Actually the gun is a two barrel set... It's a very ealy "O" grade. The orginal barrels are 30" Stub Twist, the gun was fitted with a set of 28" Two Iron Damascus tubes and forend both marked "2". The stub twist barrels have a very nice original brown finish. I need to take a few more photos on post them on my site.
Your Meridian is a nice one... enjoy!
In answer to your question, no there are no proof houses in the U.S. Gun manufacturers proof their own new products.
The Birmingham Proof house has been around since 1813 http://www.gunproof.com/ It's the law in England to have used guns reproofed before selling.

This was my 'go to' gun for bird hunting for several years. I practice with 7/8 oz low pressure reloads and hunted her with 1 1/8 oz loads, both low pressure nitro and some blackpowder.

I wheeled and dealed and traded up for three years to own this gun. Lots of help given by folks on this BBS while in the acquisition phase. Eventually purchased from another member of this BBS.

She has accounted for grouse, pheasants and a few ducks. Sadly as I learned more about gunfit I found I don't shoot it as well as other guns I own. Due to some prior stock repairs I can't have it bent, but someday I think it will get a restock. My son has spoken for her so she won't be leaving the safe any time soon.

This was my waterfowl gun for several years.



Once repairs are made, this will be my waterfowl gun. I should point out that only one set of barrels on this gun are damascus.

I have a Meriden hammerless 12 gauge that is circa 1910 as best I can figure. Twist barrels that look like yours. Bores are mirror. I've shot it about 400 rounds with black powder and low pressure smokeless without a hitch. I was never a shotshell reloader and always had a helpful friend who did low pressure loading for me; however I just recently bought a MEC and am setting it up. Currently I have the twist Meriden and two Syracuse Lefevers with damascus barrels. All of them get out on the courses and in the field. It's a real blast to use a ~100 year old gun, low pressure loads, and see it strut it's stuff. Those old timers can still make eyebrows raise! Silvers

Northern Illinois Shotgunner,

What exactly did your gunsmith find that doomed the gun?

Best,
Mark

This is great! Keep posting pics of these beautiful damascus guns, I can't get enough.. I love the idea of a hammer gun for ducks, as opposed to upland where you are walking around. You see the ducks coming, plenty of time to cock the hammer while sitting in a blind.

I would liike to eventually find a 28-30" 12b damascus gun with great barrels that could digest lots of rounds at the range and some in the duck blind. Something stout that could take some abuse too. A Parker GH or VH, or Lefever G sounds about right.

I have posted on this before, but has been awhile so will run it again. Some yrs back i purchased a "Parts Gun" at appropriate price, a Lefever H with twist bbls. Stock was cracked & wrpped with electrical tape, forend had apparently been damaged & tip dubbed off losing the metal tip. Gun would not cock, but all parts seemed to be present. Discovered the trigger plate screw was a "replacement" & too long not allowing the cocking hook to bottom out in the frame. Shortening this a thread or so & "Re-Adjustment" of the ball screw put it back in working order. However 14" down the left bbl was a "Crack". Appearance was it had been struck on something with a sharp corner, denting it in & then fired in that condition. What seems to have happened was this dent was deep enough to create an obstruction just enough to blow the Dent partially out & cracking the wall in the process. Part of it was still dented in & part was sticking out. Crack was about ¼" long circumferential around side of bbl. I could shine a light down the bore & look at opposite bore wall through the crack. Out of curriosity I put a dent plug under it & raised the part dented in & hammered the flap down. When finished it was very hard to see. I then proceded to put in in the ol "Firestone" with a string to the trigger & from behind a large tre fired first several factory 3¼de-1 1/8oz "Field" loads through it. Next I fired several factory "Express" 3 3/4de-1¼oz loads. I then fired a few 1 3/8oz low-velocity handloads I had loaded with Unique powder. Throughout all of this, the flap did not raise, the crack did not widen, no "Smudges" appeared as if were leaking gas etc, etc. Today it still sits in my cabinet, just in case I do "Ever" actually need a part for a Lefever. I have "Never" fired it from my shoulder. I do however think that the danger from "Flaws" in welded bbls , slag etc, have been highly "Over-Exagerated". I personally expect that "Seams" in steel bbls are more apt to burst as are bls, either welded or steel, which have been honed too thin, too near the chambers. note also this "14"" from breech is where many try to tell us "Smokeless Powder" exerts it's maximum pressure, totally an Old Wives Tale.

I am also really enjoying seeing that others shoot their damascus and even more so when they post photos of their "shooters"! I do hope fellow forum members keep this "virtual gun show" of beloved guns going (too often all we see on the internet and at gun shows are the guns that are for sale).

Interesting how so many of those who shoot these old guns refer to them with such affection. I am new to the hammer gun, and while at first I wasn't to wild about the idea, I have grown to appreciate some of the qualities (perhaps why it did not die out quickly upon the introduction of the hammerless designs). Here are some things I found I liked the very first time I used it-
1. No need for snap caps.
2. The action naturally falls open when the lever is operated for easy reloading.
3. When shooting trap I only need to cock the barrel I am using.
4. The gun is very safe when loaded and not cocked and one can tell at a glance (or touch) if it is ready to fire.

Some things I am not so wild about-
1. The hammers are a bit heavy and much like shooting a single action revolver, there is that extra step to take...cock the hammers.
2. Because there is no external safety (other than the hammers in the uncocked mode) the shotgun can't be "cocked and locked" for hunting (as noted by the quote above).

Another member of the forum told me that a popular technique for hunting with the hammer gun is to load, leave the action open and cock the hammers. Then one simply closes the action when ready to fire. No doubt this was a common practice in the golden days.

My Meriden's action has a feature that appears to have the purpose of preventing an accidental discharge. This feature prohibits the hammer from fully dropping unless the trigger is pulled and kept back (being new the hammer gun, I am not sure if this feature is something they all had). This is along the lines of the intention behind the Glock trigger safety. I am not sure how this works or how reliable it would be to prevent the hammer falling if the shotgun was dropped, however---if it is simply a sear, I suppose the sear could shear. Nonetheless, this leads me to believe that many old timers were comfortable hunting with the guns loaded and cocked and simply followed the rule of keeping the finger out of the trigger guard until it was time to shoot the weapon.

Please keep the photos and stories of damascus shooting going! Today I plan on taking my shotgun out and shooting some patterns on paper and time and other projects permitting, I may even shoot some clays.

Doug

SAC





LAC





jack

Doug, Belgium workmen constructed more damascus and twist barrels than any other country. And their work generally is without peer. The English also made excellent barrels though truth be told I suspect the majority of English guns carry Belgium barrels. Most tubes brought into America were from Belgium and were turned, struck, and joined here. Then they were proofed by the manufacturer. And it is my understanding that American makers used very stiff proof loads. As I see it there is a great difference between American and English proof. In England when the government proof house approved a gun it then relieved the maker of any liability should the gun later fail. However, in America the liability continued with the maker and should a barrel fail, even years later, the maker was potentially liable. That is probably one of the reasons American barrels tend to have a lot more metal in them than their English counterparts. Another way to look at proofing: do you worry today purchasing a new American gun just because it hasn't gone through a government proof? Of course not. The same was true then. Now, if an old damascus or twist gun has had its bores honed or pitted significantly, reducing wall thickness then I would think a gunsmith well versed in judging and proofing barrels should be consulted. I've just always stayed away from American guns without original bores. There are plenty of good ones around.

I consider good quality and condition twist barrels to be of nearly the same strength as damascus. Perhaps some strength is gained in the twisting process of damascus but I think the primary reason for it was fashion and beauty.

You mentioned the flats on the barrels also being of twist construction. They are integral with the tubes and were never a separate piece. Then the lug was dovetailed into the flats and brazed in place. A very strong and common method of construction.

I love to shoot my old damascus guns. However, remember this: they are old and metalurgy has changed a lot over the last century or more. Respect the gun and only shoot loads with pressures and characteristics the same as it was originally made for. There are a lot of good low pressure loads (under 7,000 psi) for anything from 7/8 oz to 1 1/8oz available by reloading. IMR is my favorite site for data since I primarily use IMR 7625 and PB in Federal hulls.

Incidently, Meriden made a very fine product.

Good shooting!

A few pics of my Meriden 12 gauge hammerless. My rabbit hunting buddy has some others of the gun with some bunnies and I'll try to get them from him. Silvers

Here's one of mine. #1 a Crawford 16ga 32" barrels. [url="http://www.hunt101.com/?p=408105&c=500&z=1"][/url]

No photos right now of the others,

This is one of my favorite guns to shoot. 16 gauge Parker with 32" Twist barrels.

Here's what I do with my old dangerous twist barreled guns. This is a 10 bore hammer Parker with Belgium welded twist barrels. Texas Panhandle is the country.

This is one of my Favorites. It's a W.W. Greener 12 ga from about 1875,with the "Self Acting Striker", which means the Hammers as you can see pull the Firing Pins back when cocked.I believe these are "Stub Damascus"

Joe, so glad to see you protecting yourself from those big greenheads with your dangerous old Parker! I can tell you were really agonized about it

One word of caution on carrying your hammer gun open, be sure it has a good solid bbl check. Many hammer guns did not & stop when the forend iron contacts the frame bottom. Such guns should be opened gently, lest an undue strain be put upon the forend lug. For a hammer gun I prefer rebounding locks & carry it closed & unlocked. On non-rebounders I carry it at the safety cock. Unless the bls are Chopper-Lump (few hammer guns are) the lug is a seperate piece brazed in. I have seen far, far more bbls with a steel lug than twist or damascus. Many also will have steel ribs, but you also see bbls with the ribs made of similar metal to the bbls.

Here's one of my favorite shooters. It's a Williams & Powell of Liverpool made about 1870. Great on dove even if it does have dangerous damascus tubes. Question of the day: why is it no one raises an eyebrow when someone shoots a muzzleloading shotgun with welded barrels but the second they see a breechloader with it the cry becomes "DANGER!"?



And another one. This is a Blissett & Son, also of Liverpool. Made somewhere around 1875. Thirty inch tubes and weighs in at 6/2.

My friends and I put 100 more rounds through my Meriden today including the two rounds I fired for pattern. I wasn't concerned about pellet count, rather point of impact. I am visiting the Rio Grande Valley right now and we had a very windy day and thus not the best for shooting. I had intended to step back 40 yards...but found wind a factor and that my orange dot was hard to see, so I stepped up a bit and these patterns were actually fired at closer to 30-35 yards. The right barrel appears to have a more open choke than the left (a good thing in my book) which explains why I was shooting trap a bit better last weekend using the more open choke; and the shotgun appears to be hitting more or less where I point it (a very good thing).

After watching me have so much fun shooting a couple of boxes of shells through the old gun at hand thrown clays, two of my friends decided they were willing to take a chance on the Meriden and together we fired another 50 rounds.

I must comment on and thank everyone for all the great information everyone has provided in response to my questions. I hope others are finding this as valuable as have I. Most of all, thanks for posting photos of your prized damascus shooters. What a great collection of guns and owners!

I wish I could post some neat photographs of game taken with my damascus. A broken clay isn't very impressive (and very hard to photograph), but below are the patterns I shot today.

Doug

Doug, those look like pretty darned good patterns to me! What shells were you using?

Joe- I don't know how good the patterns are but I noticed when I got a clay up close, it pounded it hard, and I found that if I missed with the first shot, more often than not I managed to break the clay with the second shot and some of those second shots were at a pretty good distance.

So far I have shot 175 rounds through the shotgun and the only ammunition I have used is the Federal Vintage Gold Medal Ammunition 12 Gauge 2-3/4" 7/8 oz #7-1/2.

"This vintage ammunition was produced specifically for MidwayUSA to the following specifications:

7/8 oz shot, 1200 feet per second velocity, 5,000 pounds of chamber pressure."

Midway cautions it is not for use in damascus barrels, however.

So essentially, I am shooting an 8 1/4 pound 20 gauge, and loving every minute of it!

Doug

Doug, 7/8 loads are my "go to" loads for skeet with any of my 12 bores. In my opinion they're as good as any heavier loads for that game. And sooooo sweet to shoot. I've even used them for some SC games with good results, though I'm not shooting for score. My favorite upland hunting loads are based on 1 oz. loads in Federal Gold hulls with pressures around the 5,000 psi at around 1200 fps. Good luck!

My one and only damascus gun, a Remington 1894 AE gets only Gamebore Blackpowder shells. If you have an olden gun, shoot old powder! Stay with the times.

Mine is extractor, Damascus and probably 1904. I usually shoot my low pressure loads through it but this past Vintager event at Orvis Sandanona at Millbrook, NY I shot in the black powder event. First time experience. What a hoot! Even more fun since it was a dark overcast day (and I mean real dark) and the huge bursts of fire and spinning falling smoke trails were a sight to see.

I think mine is an '02 made gun?
Pretty fun shooting huh!
Along time ago, I purchased a bunch of Gamebores from Galazan's for one of my English damascus...the Americans are more fun tho'.

Post deleted by builder

A couple of pics of my 1894. The stock was so black when I got it that you might think it was plastic, except for the dings and gouges. I had Craig Libhart grind down the damaged butt to keep the widow's peak so it could be made original again with a replacement butt pad and extend the length of pull.

There is nothing less desirable about those barrels. The differences in jobber prices when they were produced leads to a lot of modern misconceptions. Look at it another way. With fewer welds, there is less to go wrong 100 years later.

The Belgians essentially tried to put an end to Faux Damas by instituting laws about what could be stamped on the barrels. The problem with period faux damascus is that in many cases inferior cold rolled steel tubes were painted over. These tubes have longitudinal welds that are known for splitting the length of the barrel. The very reason damascus was felt to superior was that it would not fail like this.

In general, American makers were no different that makers any where else at the time. They were constantly seeking out sources of competitively priced parts for their final product. The English had the ability and resources to be independent with regard to barrel making. None the less, a good deal of tonnage in raw tubes crossed the channel. American makers had to deal with the constantly changing tariffs of importing foreign products.

As far as Belgian proofs... If the tubes were in a final state (bore diameter with chamber) but yet unjoined, there was a proof required. If they were joined, but not yet fitted to a receiver, there was a proof required. So only the roughest tube could have been exported without at least 1 proof. On some Lefever barrels the makers marks can still be found. In general however, it is believed the makers marks and proof marks were filed away during the final shaping and fitting.

As for 100 year old companies and their proofing policy, I would love to see some documentation as well. For all the factory photos, I have never seen one of the proof room. Not saying it was not done... Yes, I know about Fox...

FAUX Damascus images

This 8 Bore sold for a substantial amount




If you are unsure about the damascus pattern being real, a touch of paint remover will almost always reveal the truth.

Interesting document about faux damascus
http://damascus.free.fr/f_damas/f_hist/liege.htm

Pete

I have shot literally thousands of shells through my Bakers. They are both Twist and Damascus, depending what I am going to do that day. I have shot rd. after rd. of trap with these Bakers and brought down many doves. I reload and shoot 1oz. loads using mostly using Nitro 100 and Solo 1000. I have also used 7/8 oz. loads and they are sweet to shoot and may shoot allot more if them.

Doug, if you reload, there is ample 12 ga. data for the Accurate Arms powders Dave mentions.

jack

builder, way better wood than mine - looks to be high grade wood found on higher grade 1894s!

My Scott with some proceeds from Utah.



Me and my sons in South Dakota. Damascus hammergun in my hands and Ithaca Flues for the older boy and a Belgian Guild for the younger boy.

Good looking family there Mike you must be proud of them!!!
All the best

Mike-

Great looking guns, birds, landscape and hunters! The old double guns really do add an extra touch of class.

With all those fine old doubles...how do you choose which one to use?

Doug

Mike...No offence, but I'm sure you are aware that at least one piece of blaze orange is required for hunting upland game birds in SD. Good to see that the boys are wearing theirs. Figure you just traded your blaze orange cap for the big hat for the photo or your piece of orange is on the back of the shirt.

Great photo.

Griz,
I've hunted in SD several times but I was not aware there was a blaze orange requirement for phez season. I looked just now and could not find it for phez but did see it for big game. I hope I haven't been violating a law.

treblig,

Proud I am! The oldest is in college and his time is limited. The younger son and I are thinking of shooting is some service rifle matches this summer.

dbadcraig,

I always manage to choose one or two. I have settled on a German BLE for most of my hunting. Not as pretty as a damascus hammergun but I shoot it well.

griz,

I have had that hat since I was 18. It works really well to keep the sun off of my glasses. It only comes off the wall for hunting. The back of the Filson vest I am wearing in that picture is one big panel of orange.

Thanks all for your kind words.

Chuck,

That was my understanding also but I always wear at least one piece of blaze.

Silvers-

It would appear you and I are the only Meriden shooters. You were correct, the barrels on your hammerless look identical to the ones on my hammer gun. You gun is in very good condition, which I suspect makes it a bit of a rare thing. I don't think Meriden was in business very long and most of their shotguns were marketed to folks very likely to give them hard use. The hand guard on my shotgun does not use the latch as does yours. The 1908 Sears catalog was extolling the virtues of the latch-less fore-end, so it makes me wonder if yours was either a very early gun or a later one (either the latch-less for end was in fact an improvement, or it was later found to be lacking).

Thanks for sharing those great photos!

Doug

Adding #5 to my list of things I like about my first hammergun.

5. User friendly to inspect, clean and service! With the removal of a single screw the locks come out.