Not a double, but a fine gun indeed. I thought the forum might enjoy seeing an FN made Browning A-5 16ga which must be about top of the line.
The frame is marked "Fabrique Nationale Darmes Guerre Herstal" with Browning's patent and depose below and has 100% coverage Teutonic style engraving, two bird dogs with Huns on one side and a hunter shooting a rabbit on the other side, with acanthus style scroll on the top and bottom. Even the top and bottom tangs are engraved as well as the back of the "hump".
The trigger guard is scroll engraved around a well done flying duck. Notice the safety; usual old style military push, but it has a knurled release which must be pressed to get it back on safe.
The frame has the number 266 in a box nestled within the engraving which may be either a model number or perhaps the serial number? The frame also has proof-marks including rampant stick lion over PV, an asterisk over T, and the tower.
The fore end has a feature I haven't seen on other early A-5s, two metal bands in front and rear of the wood. I guess these were to help prevent splitting.
The barrel is marked "Poldi Anticorro". The proof-marks on the barrel side are: *over J, rampant stick lion over PV, the tower, and rampant stick lion over ELG, and 16G in a diamond. There's also a P.OR and 73j in a circle, the number 2240, and choke 16.3 over 16.7 and 16.3 over 16.8. There is a serial number, 266 matching the one on the frame.
The bottom of the barrel is marked D=6.5 over 19.0 with what appears to be 11 1/2 to the side. Choke measures Modified on my drop in scale.
Can anyone determine the build date from any of the gobbeldygook above?...Geo
I can not be of help on the date George but that is a way cool A5.
George, that is a beauty. Pretty sure the first A5's were all 12 gauge so I don't think the 266 is the serial number. The serial number is usually on the bottom front of the receiver just in front of the loading port.and on the barrel.
Here are couple pics of a first year 1903 A5 I own showing the serial number locations. A serial number will help date it.
Thanks johnr, I'll look again this evening for the sn, but i doubt I missed it when I wrote down all the info before...Geo
I notice mine has the same "slouching back trigger" yours does.
George, this thread on Shotgun World may be of help as far as narrowing down a date range.
http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=216472
Great thread on shotgunworld. Thanks for the reference Johnr!
Looks like 16ga production started in 1909 and the trigger shape appears to be pre-war, so that narrows it down. Now if I can just find a S.N....Geo
I don't think this particular gun was made for the American market...Geo
The D=6.5/19 is chamber dimensions. This would interpret to a 6.5 CM (65mm/2 9/16") chamber length having a diameter just ahead of the rim seat of 19mm (.748"). As I recall when two diameters are found on the same bbl as the 16.7 & 16.8 the smaller one was measured before final finishing of the bore with the larger on being final bore dia. Thus in final finishing it was enlarged from about .657 to.661". The choke remained constant at 16.3mm or .642", thus about .019" constriction.
Thanks for the interpretation of choke measurement and chamber Miller. About modified I figure. Another early A-5 16ga I have, my grandfather's, also had the short chamber and he had the chamber opened to 2 3/4" as well as widening the ejection port. I would not open the chamber on this one due to possible collector value.
OK, following johnr's advice I located the serial number on the barrel which confirms that the 266 number on the frame is in fact the SN for the gun. That makes this one a first year of production for the 16ga guns. The serial number sequence started over at 1 in 1909 for the new 16ga guns.
I am researching the gun for a local guy who'd like to sell it. I don't collect Brownings, but suspect this one would be of interest to someone who does. The owner has (of course) asked my estimate of value and I got no idea...Geo
High grade Brownings like this are seldomly seen. Too bad this one was as neglected as it was. And the white line pad is just great. At least it is not too far gone to be cleaned up if desired.
That's what I thought too Mr. Dudley. Added pad is hard as a rock and does not fit anyway. I'm thinking it might be a WW-2 bring back; wonder if the paper is still around..Geo
George, I hope you don't mind but I put a link to this thread on Shotgun World in the Browning section, there are some very knowledgeable Browning collectors there that may be able to help you. It appears to be a rare and beautiful A5.
Looks like it is first year for the 16 gauge 1909, collectors will be very interested in this gun.
Link to 16 gauge specific information.
http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=297760
Thanks once again johnr! I do not mind at all...Geo
Thanks for sharing George, interesting gun.
What I really want find out now may beyond hope, but I suspect this may be a WW-2 'bring-back' from the civilian gun confiscation our army did on the way to Berlin in order to prevent the likelihood of a civilian insurrection behind the combat line. GIs were allowed to ship some of them back home. Many fine European guns entered the USA in that time period.
My fantasy is that some local German Baron ordered this repeating shotgun in 1909 when it came out in 16ga to be the first in the area to own one for boar hunting. Then, it was surrendered in 1945 and has been standing in the corner of some former GI's closet ever since.
The local young man who has it dropped it by the house earlier this week when I was at work and told my wife he'd like me to look at it and tell him what he had, with the idea of disposing of it. I have not spoken to him but might find out some history when I do...Geo
That late Fray-Mershon or early Pachmayr "Whiteline" pad is certainly period correct for something a returning GI might have slapped on the gun.
I don't see that exact engraving pattern shown in Shirley & Vanderlinden, but there are some patterns with very similar acanthus leaves.
The pad just says "Whiteline" with letters atop one another running from heel to toe...Geo
I have an honest question.
Is a JM Browning designed shotgun, however nicely embellished, that is built, (presumably under license), by FN actually considered a "Browning"?
I thought all "Browning's" must have "Browning" somewhere on the firearm. With Browning being a US corporate concern.
It get's a little more complex when you start to consider the status of the licensee's of the "Browning pattern".
Anyone wish to clue me in?
All "Browning" Auto 5s were built by FN, Remington, or Miroku. Browning has never built a gun.
My question isn't about who owns what factory.
It's really, "What makes a Browning in the marketplace?"
None of the A-5 clones seem to have much of a following.
Browning did make and sell some guns in the beginning. He and his brothers built and sold about 600 single shot rifles before selling the patent to Winchester. When Winchester and Browning couldn't come to terms on the automatic shotgun, John Browning went to Belgium with the design. FN was already building several pistols under Browning's patents and jumped at the chance to build the automatic shotgun. Browning built them under the FN name for sale in Europe, and Remington and Savage built them under license in the US. FN built the guns that were imported to the US by the Browning Arms Co. before and after WWII.
During WWII, Remington built guns under the Browning name until Browning got back in production in Belgium.
Zapper I think the factor that matters in regards to your question is whether an FN Browning is the same thing as a "real" Browning. And the fact of the matter is that the "real' Browning was the one built by FN.
That is what the Belgian Browning built for most of the 20th century is, the gun built for the Browning Company by and under contract with Fabrique Nationale of Belgium (FN). The one above was built in the same factories as the ones badged Browning and sold here by the Browning Company. This one just (presumably) went to the European market.
The Miroku Brownings came late in the game, and the Remington Model 11s and Savage gun were not Brownings, but built on his patent again by contract. I think there were other browning patent guns built by others, but the only one that is a true Belgian Browning is the FN product.
The story I have heard is that after Winchester did so well with its Model 97 pump built on John M. Browning's patent he tried to sell Winchester his patent for the semi-automatic gun, what became the A-5. Winchester seems to have rebuffed Mr. Browning by making him wait for some time to see the Wichester president.
Mr. Browning waited a while, the put on his hat and his coat over his arm and went to the Telegraph station and wired Fabrique Nationale to see if they wanted to build his new gun. The rest is history and the Belgian Browning was born...Geo
or something like that; I'm sure Researcher or someone will correct my post.
George, that is accurate as far as I know with the addition that Browning also went to Remington to start production, Remington wanted the gun but the CEO of Remington had a heart attack before they could start production. Browning then went to FN and the rest is history. Remington did start production as the Model 11 in 1905 and built around 850,000.
Here is how my first year 1903 is marked, also note the first year did not have a magazine cut off.
The Story I have always heard is that browning refused to Sell the patent for the A-5 to Winchester, fearing they would not put it in production, but shelf it. He demanded it me made under royalty. When Winchester refused this offer he went to Remington. After waiting for some time to see whom he was supposed to see, President of Rem, as I recall he was finally informed the man had suffered a heart attack & passed away. He then gathered up his gun & went to Belgium.
The barrel is marked "Poldi Anticorro".
What is this about? From what I've seen and read the early A5 barrels were Cockerill Steel and a bit later some marked Acier Special Steel and then mostly just Special Steel.
From a European catalogue back in the day --
Researcher, this one is marked Poldi Anticorro and is serial numbered to the frame. The Barrel also has a solid rib as opposed to the model 7201 shown in the ad you posted. I hope you know my reference to being corrected by you was in jest and that I and all of us, I'm sure, appreciate your willingness to share your encyclopedic knowledge with those of us who just want to know...Geo
In remarking on the Poldi Anticorro I was just hoping to learn something.
I posted the August Stukenbrok catalogue page just to show that they were being called Brownings in Europe. Surprised no one has commented on that "Paradox" barrel.
It may be that Poldi was the 'special steel' they offered? If I were shooting boars I'd have ordered the "paradox" barrel. I think the safety lockout feature would be handy in case a sounder of boars were to turn and charge en masse...Geo
Just to wind up my story on this thread, I had a chance to sit down and talk with the owner this afternoon. He confirmed my hypothesis that the gun was indeed a WW-2 bring-back that been gifted to his great Grandfather. He didn't have any papers.
He also confirmed that he wanted to cash it in and I suggested he take it from here on any sale. I gave him the benefit of my research and of all the great information I gleaned from you on the forum. One gentleman from the ShotgunWorld site johnr recommended is particularly interested and has contacted me. I handed him off to the owner and wish him well.
Thank you all for an education on a subject I really knew nothing about...Geo
P.S.: If anyone else would like to contact the owner directly, just PM me for his name and email.
Researcher: I just saw the post with the Paradox barrel and that feature jumped out immediately. I had thought that Paradox type barrels for single tube guns were a much more modern development.
Everyone keeps telling me the fitted metal bands on the fore end aren't original, but look at the drawing of the model 7201 shown in the period ad Researcher posted. I think I see the band...Geo
It's not exactly a safe queen Geo, but it seems like you're not too interested in it. Why not sleep on it and call the guy back and consider buying it when the fellow comes up with his own price. It looks like a good one, and chances are on the unique side. Just volunteer to loan the photographer an old towel if he wants to throw it on that patio table again.
Uh, way too many doves ducks turkeys quail squirrels rabbits and at least one wild hog cleaned on that patio table. Not a good subject to take up with my wife! If I got a new one what do you think her reaction would be the first time I dropped a limit of wet bloody mourning doves on it. I'd be cleaning birds in the yard!
I advised the guy so I don't think I could ethically buy it. Not my thing anyhow.
He'll end up selling it for three grand to a collector. Coolest thing about the whole deal was the picture the owner had of his Great Grand dDad on a horse in the South FL turpentine woods holding the gun.
I couldn't sell a family gun like that, but it is his choice....Geo
After I turned the gun back over to the owner to work out any sale arrangements he might be satisfied with I was contacted by a few of the guys from the Shotgunworld site. I referred them to the owner. I was enjoying watching the collectors throw one another off the trail and now the threads on this gun have gone silent.
Having thoroughly inspected this gun myself and knowing the history of it as well as the family it is coming from I am convinced it is right as rain with the sole exception of the kick-pad which was installed over the uncut end of the stock. I have really enjoyed the research on this Browning humpback..Geo
Geo. What do you mean? I think newbies might be interested in your take on the subterfuge you allude to.
After all, "The money is made on the buy, not the sell"...
Myself, all my questions were honest and forthright. The few responses received were insulting, but not unexpected.
I never did get any clarity on what actually made that shotgun a very collectible "Browning", as opposed to a very well embellished "FN". It would be interesting to know whether the hard rubber buttplate said FN or Browning.
Maybe someone can translate the advertisement posted. It may shed more light on how those guns were perceived when first made.
Zapper, I'm truly sorry if I have insulted you with regard to your questions. Lets try once more.
The subject gun is a first year of manufacture 1909 16ga Browning Semiautomatic A-5 with a three digit serial number. All Belgian Brownings were manufactured by Fabrique Nationale of Herstal, Belgium under contract with John M. Browning. That alone makes it extremely rare and collectible to Browning enthusiasts. The embellishment and upgrades, including special steel, solid rib, fore end braces, and 100% engraving (all original and factory in my opinion) just add to the interest and value. Kind of like a Grand American Winchester 21 as opposed to a field grade.
The added on recoil pad just says "Whiteline" and was not original to the gun. It does NOT appear to me from inspecting the gun that the stock was cut to install the pad because the original curve of the butt remains
Finally, if there is any 'subterfuge' and competition involved among the possible buyers, I'll let you work that out for yourself. The owner came to me and asked for my opinion and with the help of the forum here I have done some research and expressed to him my personal opinion of the originality and value of a unique gun...Geo
Geo. I am not an A-5 collector, nor even much of an aficionado. So far, all I have to go on is that "It's a Browning A-5, because I say so."
Is every auto loading shotgun sold today licensing the Benelli inertia driven system going to be sold as a Benelli in the future?
Would a customer walking into a gunshop when that particular shotgun was sitting in the rack have been told, "This is the new Browning autoloader"..? Or would it have been more like today, where the customer would have been told, "This is the new XXX, they license the action design from Benelli, and they are made in the same factory alongside the Benelli's."
I know it only matters to a subset of potential collectors, I'm just curious is all.
You got me there Zapper. I'll just have to respect your opinion in the spirit in which it is offered...Geo
George has anyone else seen or documented another gun with similar engraving? I think it is period but not likely factory engraving. Low serial number for sure. But I've never seen a Teutonic style engraved A5 like this one. I think it was bought and then engraved to suit the new owner. A after market upgrade engraved gun. Might find a known browning engravers mark to support a factory connection somewhere in the engraving But unsigned engraving will be hard pressed to prove factory linkage.
Condition is certain to discount final sale price. Think what that must have looked like a hundred bumps ago. If pristine it would interest ten times the buyers as it is I see an interesting early gun which generates as many questions as it answers and to some of us that is a bonus.
Jon, I've certainly never seen another like this one. I have seen one of the engraving patterns before. It is the one with 'rolling rabbit' and it was on a Browning product of some sort and there has been speculation that the hunter in the engraving is meant to portray John M. Browning himself.
Someone has suggested that FN outsourced all it's engraving until sometime in the 1920's. Same to be said for most of the English doubles we all love; does that make it 'aftermarket' or just part of the service for a special ordered gun?...Geo
I understand out source engraving. My question is there any way to prove this gun was engraved by or for browning? I think it was done afterwards. After it was sold to a hunter who wanted to dress up his new automatic like his old double gun. The scenes are classic ones which you can find on a number of well made Germanic doubles. I could see someone buying a plain A5, shooting it and then sending it out to have it engraved in Germany or Austria in the style that they did all good doubles. Perhaps he sent a eching of what he wanted directly to browning and they did it for him. Without documentation or another a5 done like this one I will think after not factory.
As to value it will be worth what ever the buyer decides he is willing to pay for it. True value is what he can sell it for when he tires of it and the second buyer pays for it. We will know then if the first guy paid too much like many of us tend to do when buying rare, seldom seen or just old guns as my wife calls them. Thanks for sharing an interesting gun.
Perfectly sound reasoning Jon. I do not require agreement from anyone with respect to my opinions. Who knows?...Geo
Original engraving or not I have no doubt that the question will be used to try to reduce any purchase price and that is just the nature of negotiation. Ten minutes at a bench grinder and the offending decoration is gone...Geo
I'll wag that the engraving has a bit of a Belgian Teutonic feel, and if it ended up in Germany, there wasn't a whole lot of time before the rumblings of war were on folks mind.
One thing for absolutely sure that I will say about the 'originality' of the engraving is, to quote former Georgia Governor Marvin Griffin: "Some of my friends feel this way about the issue and some of my friends feel that way about the issue, but you may depend upon me to always agree with my friends!"...Geo
Geo,
The key is not only did FN outsource their engraving, the did not have a Standard Engraving Pattern catalogued until the 1923 when they resumed importation to the US and catalogued Grades 1-4 and Engraving Patterns A,D, and F.
The "Book" on A5's by Vanderlinden and Shirley shows many engraving patterns and styles that were in the FN records and sales information.
The "Bands" that you believe you see is actually wood, as the finger groove of the earliest A5 did not extend to the end of the forearm. I would contend that the art used in the catalogue shown by Researcher is actually illustrations of 12 ga. guns.
I have not seen an example of a 16 ga. gun that has this type of forearm, by 1909 the finger groove extended through the end of the forearm on both 12's and 16's.
Will
No Fowlgunner the bands are metal. If you look closely there are screws. Two clearly, one on the side and one in the middle. It looks like there are three total. If this was just a decorative detail in wood there would be no need for screws.
Sorry Jon,
I wasn't clear enough. I was referring back to Geo's statement that he thought the illustration in the catalogue provided by Researcher had bands on the forearm.
I do not have a photo-bucket account but if you follow the thread on Shotgun World Sauerfan has pictures of the original style Auto 5 forearm.
Shotgun World Thanks, Will
The metal fore end bands are each attached with three tiny wood screws. My supposition that they were original to the gun is from the fit and quality. They just don't look like something added later to brace a crack in the wood. At any rate, they didn't work and the usual fore end crack is there...Geo
Geo., I read through the SW thread and most of what I was curious about was answered within it. Thanks for the link.
Sirs, I have found one of these FN shotguns at a local gun store. 16ga, #24922. Acier Special on barrels.
The frame is marked "Fabrique Nationale Darmes Guerre Herstal" with Browning's patent, depose below. Belgian 'PV' proofs stamped all over. But it has a straight stock. Has anyone ever known of a factory straight stocked FN browning patented shotgun? Considering the purchase, but the stock has me scratching my head. Thanks.
RedofTx, check out the old advertisement on page 3 of this thread to see the gun you're looking at. This thread on ShotgunWorld will help with dating by serial number:
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http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=297760&start=300>
Enjoy your research...Geo
P.S. Looks like 1922.
