We know about bird hunting in the UK and Spain and the great shotguns that are built there for that. I have never read about wing shooting in central Europe othernthan ducks and pheasants in Hungary but we have a proliferation of beautiful shotguns from Germany. But as beautiful and well built as they are most have impossibly tight chokes and rather cumbersome looking cheek rests as if they were meant to be aimed at game.

I have a couple of drillings that I hunt furred game with and have shot a couple of ducks and pheasants with and shot a fair round of trap with, they feel like the shots are more deliberate than with a true bird gun. I would like to get a nice Sauer or Simmson to case with my Sauer drilling but wonder if it would end up just being a shotgun only version of my drilling.

A little insight to wing shooting/shotgun use in Germany would be helpful.

Thank You
Oskar

One point I read on another board, possibly the German gun one, was that Ol'Fritz preferred to carry his gun around slung. By the time it was mounted, the birds tended to be farther away, needing tighter chokes.

Regards
Ken

Oakar going back many years ago while in Germany in the service I had the pleasure to hunt there. I got to know a German who worked on our post as a fireman and his father owned quite a bit of land. I had just bought out of our gun club a Remington 11-48 in .410 with a imp.cyl. choke. I told him about it and said what are you going to kill with that? He shot a Franchi 20 gauge and I told him I could kill as much with the .410 as his 20 gauge.
Since there is a large selection of game there, including 10 lb. hares, foxes, pheasants, Hungarian partridge and roe deer, I can see where the tighter chokes would be used.
In order to hunt in Germany at my time there you needed 400 acres and you needed a dog that would retrieve game, and if water on the property had to also retrieve in water.
Sunday mornings the family meaning my friend and his son, his father would hunt along a stream and then into some plowed fields for hares. The afternoon was devoted for some townspeople to join in the hunt for Hungarian partridge, pheasant and any hares kicked up. Most all shot doubles or drillings and not sure of the chokes. All game went to land owner for sale in town. Don't know about now.

Wasn't the preferred method of hunting capercaillie to stalk them and shoot them off a limb? Seems I read that in an old book of mine. That would make tight chokes very important.

SRH

Oskar,

I have a number of drillings and most all are Full & Full or Full & Full+ choked. I have also had a number of German doubles which were also choked F&F or F&F+. Some of the more recent German Doubles, just picked up a Merkel 147E which appears to have M&F (haven't miked the barrels yet this is just checking with the in the muzzle gauge).

At the risk of being labeled sacrilegious, one thought would be to have the chokes in the drilling opened for wing shooting. Or find a German SXS you like and shoot well and have the chokes in that opened if it doesn't fit your style of hunting.

Just one persons thoughts...

Don

Oskar,
I have a 16 gauge Simson that is a very nice handling upland bird gun. It originally had a cheek piece stock but handled quite well. It had too much drop for me so I did restock it. The chokes were 0.043" in both barrels! Extra full and extra full. I have opened it to 0.013 and 0.023 (LM/IM) for open plains hunting.



I've never fully understood the crazy tight chokes, but my gun was built as a nice handling gun for wing shooting. I'm toying with finding a German 16 gauge o/u and just doing a butt stock transplant with a cheek piece made to fit me. These German 0/U can be nice light guns around 6 1/4 to 6 1/2 pounds. Are you in WI or WA now? I'll be at Medford next week with my Simson if you want to shoot it.
Regards,
Jeff

Nice looking piece of German gunmaking there, JNW. Who did the restocking? They did not embarrass themselves, to say the least.

I had a Merkel 203 12 ga for awhile - very nice handling gun. Mike Orlen solved the choke issue and the gun proved to be a very good shooter.

With modern loads light modified would be about perfect upland game choke.

I'll side with the late T. Nash Buckingham for tighter chokes- in his great article "The Dove"- he states: "You've about had all the thrills wingshooting can offer when you crumple up an overhead passing dove with the full pattern of your load"-- You don't get that "crumple" and the float of feathers after the deceased bird hits the ground, and hopefully, bounces once or twice from the impact of the deadfall-- like it flew into a brick wall at Mach 3- wowie!!

Nash and I were on the same page concerning doves.

Was that article published in the seven volume set of his books? I would really like to read it (again?).

SRH

For bobs, blues, pheasant, sharptails and huns I would have cylinder for the right barrel. Anything from IC to full for the left.

I hunt behind pointing dogs. Might be different if I was behind Springer Spaniels.

Add Snipe and Doves over a tank.

IMO, there is a lot more to choke choice than naming the quarry. I respect your experience on birds, Mike, and given the amount of time you hunt bobs I suspect you have developed a very quick move in response to a flush or covey rise. For a bird hunter who has those lightning reflexes, a cylinder might almost be a necessity in the first barrel. I have hunted quail with many men in my life. Some had reflexes that were nothing short of astounding, quick eyes and hands. For them an open choke is necessary to prevent meat damage. I was never one of those. I am a more methodical quail shooter. I guess to some I look slow. I can get that first shot off faster than I do, usually, but I don't want to. I love quail, but I hate missing with a passion, and that hatred makes me look harder and shoot slower. I can double on a covey rise, but I usually don't, unless there is a straggler or two. Anymore, here, it is rare for a covey of wild birds to hold tight enough for us to utilize a CYL barrel. They usually flush "wild", before we get very close. For me, an IC, or at the least a SK choke, is better. I like a modified in the second barrel. For Gambel's, the little bit I have hunted them, a CYL would be a really BAD choice. Those boogers can boogie! They are full speed within three feet of taking to the air, I believe.

I can hold my fire for a split second longer, if I DO pick out a quail very quickly, a lot easier than I can make a too open barrel stretch out there farther than it should. I'm of the opinion that the right choke for flushing birds depends on the shooting style of the man just as much as it does the quarry.

SRH

I used to shoot over spaniels for their hunt tests, SK-II and IM were nice as the pattern was was open enough to not grind the birds up for the started dogs yet let me ride them a bit for a nice retrieve with the Master dogs. The same combo worked for shoot to retrieve competitions over my AWS.

Over my pointer on wild birds it's SK-I/IC and IM.

Two of my drillings get used for calling bear/big cats and coyote/bobcats, the tight chokes work well with Buckshot and NP BB's. Brenneke slugs shoot well out of the fulls also.



I do have an older hammer drilling that just might see more time bird hunting this year, it has a little longer barrels and is fairly light. It will give me a better feel for bird hunting with a shotgun with a cheek piece.

Stan- You'll find it in the GBE book "The Best of Nash Buckingham"- not that there is any "Worst of TNB"-- (tongue in cheek)- also "Hail and Farewell" and "Play House"-- I grew up in the Queen City area, which is a lot closer to Dixie than, say- Cleveland- in the great Buckeye State- But reading those great stories over and again sure makes me sympathize with the South in the "War of Nawthern Aggression 1861=1895, which tore America to flinders-- Nash was indeed a true Southern Gent'man- polite to all, especially the "wimmenfolks", tolerant of the Colored folks too- with a better understanding of their world that Sharpton, Jackson et al espouse today. He passed in March 1971, and his likes will most likely never be seen again in the world we have to endure today-

Stan my choke choices were based on shooting an ounce of shot. If I were shooting 1/2 or 5/8 ounce I would probably go with tighter chokes as well.