I'm trying to decide whether to keep a percussion double I recently purchased. I love it, it's one of England's top 5 makers, yet the left(Damascus) barrel has 3 pits about 3 inches from the breech. Although none of the other Damascus barreled percussion weapons I own have any pits of consequence, most have none and those that do just a spatter near the muzzle.

Of course the location of the pits on this new weapon is of consequence, but only one of the three seems alarming. It is fairly large, like a small chip was dug out of the barrel. I know a photo is called for but unfortunately I can't provide that.

Supposedly the previous owner(s) took the gun out every bird season, but the last season was in 1968. Unfortunately I cannot measure the wall thickness there without removing the breech and that's not going to happen either.

Although, of course, nobody can tell me whether this barrel is safe or not, especially sight unseen, I instead am appealing to owners of muzzleloaders that might have had a similar situation, and what their experience with loads of BP used, etc. was/is.

Thanks for any contributions

Since you have not removed the breech plug, can we assume these are external pits? If so, what is the depth of the one you are most concerned about? It would be nice to at least use a bore scope to examine if there is internal pitting in the same neighborhood. I don't know of any wall thickness gauge that could give you an accurate measurement that far from the muzzles.

I suppose you could make a judgement call then, and do a little "American Proofing" with the gun tied in a tire, very stout load, and long string on the triggers while hiding behind a large tree. But as with any proofing, failure won't do anything for the resale value.

American proofing is common practice here as well.
I tend to proof with three shots out of each barrel with a 50% increased load. tied securely to tyres. Obviously can't make any promises but non of mine have blown.

Its hard to get an idea of depth of the pits are that you are looking at. Many muzzle loaders in the uk still in regular use are well pitted though the length of the barrels and are shot without any problems. The worst barrel set of mine is not particularly great pitted throughout the length and it does fine but they are a meaty barrel set.

Speaking to an old collector friend of mine who has seen all kinds of guns being shot he tells that the worst guns he has seen regularly shot have holes rusted clean through the bore through a combination of internal and external pitting and non concentric boring apparently if its in the last 6 inches of barrel you can get away with it.

I know of another individual who removed the ribs of a gun to fine little holes between the barrels who promptly patched these up with his welder and he certainly shot that.

Proofing will satisfy your curiosity either way, so its always worth it. Be safe.

Another thing i have always been told by the old boys is 50:50 volume loads, Same volume of shot to powder. Use properly fitting wads and even light loads can be effective on game ( lightest shot charge i use is 26grams and the heaviest 30 )

Keith - good call. I forgot to mention that I did drop a bore light down. didn't see any inside pitting anywhere, but then again it was hard to get enough of a clear "picture" of what was going on all the way down there. I suppose if there was any inside pitting I would have seen it, on the other hand.

I've got 6 other percussion double and one perc double rifle, all damascus barreled of course, and as I said, no pits on them except just a fine spatter on a barrel of one (Purdey 16 bore). As I said, I've taken a shine to this new one, so it's possible I'm being a little picky. Or else it's the fact that the pit(s) are in that "Danger Zone" (first 10 inches after the breech). Ooooh, scary.....

Sounds like a dandy...Please don't keep us in suspense, I for one would love to see some pictures and/or hear a little more about it.

Unless you have significantly deep pitting near the breeches, the only reason for concern is that it will take a little longer to clean at the end of the day.

I’ve written about a Manton 9/10 gauge SXS muzzle loader I had several times now. Even though it was proofed 9/10 gauges, by the time I got it honing over the years had turned it into a 8.5/9 gauge. Because of the metal lose due to honing, I decided to shoot 12 gauge loads in it consisting of 3 drams BP and 1-1/8 ounces of shot. It was just fine with that light load (attached is a photo of the gun with a dead hen pheasant as proof). However, I feared what might happen in the field if I accidentally double loaded a barrel with 6 drams BP (which I did once by accident in a Pedersoli replica 12 gauge). I did a 6 dram and 1-1/8 ounce “America Proof” on each barrel and the gun held together just fine. I wouldn’t hesitate to “proof” it if I were you. However, it sounds to me like you have a shooter there.



Steve

You know, looking at the barrels a moment ago I think my mind cleared and I realized just what I am seeing.

The barrels are beautiful, both of them, all the way gorgeous. BUT, in this spot there are 3"pits", the middle one looking more like a chip, and there is a ring of silver around them all.

I believe the barrel was dented at one time and then pulled out and perhaps spot welded (?). It HAS to be evidence of a fix and not normal wear.

How does this sound to you all now? Anyone familiar with things like this?

Why can't you post a photo? Digital cameras are cheap and if you don't know how to post it contact me via PM and I'll post it for you or someone else here can do it.

Steve

I'll try get a picture of the worst one of mine for comparison but then again every guns different. You will only ever know if that particular gun is safe if you stick a good load in it and touch it off from a safe distance. The ring of silver is odd, has it been honed recently?

Steve - I've got a digital camera, but (a) I can't get an extreme close-up with it and (b) yes, I am illiterate about posting pics. I plan on getting a friend of mine who photographs a lot and has many digital cameras and lenses to take some pictures of this.

Demon - the gun has only been in my possession since Saturday and I didn't notice this "anomaly" until last night, so I don't know if it's been honed. The more I think about it the more I believe this area shows some kind of fix. I mean, Except for needing rebrowning in the lower half, these barrels are impeccable. Beautiful Westley Richards barrels, smooth and sleek....except for this ONE little area a couple inches from the breech. 3 "pits" each with a silver aura around them, the middle one looking more like a chip or divit , a shape that would definitely not result from decay.

EDIT 2: You can see pictures of this gun, but NOT of the area I'm concerned with, if you look up a post on the SALES forum on Nov 3, 2014 posted by Cable. From those pictures you can see more in his photobook. Check them out, I should have mentioned them earlier but wanted this sale to be removed from any trace.

EDIT: on the other side of the breech there are 3 or 4 deep cuts in the wood, probably from a bad fall(?). The barrels may have been damaged at the sam,e time, I don't know, just guessing.

if I might make a suggestion "IF" you do decide to "Proof" it.
Don't start with a proof load. Instead start with an extremely light load & gradually work up. I recall reading this a long time ago, written by an antique gun collector & always thought it sound advice. After each firing Examine the pitted area very thoroughly, even under magnification if needed. Often times if there is a hole or very weak spot firing the light loads will cause a sooty spot on the outside without ripping the barrel too severely. it will at least make a better wall hanger that way than with a gaping hole in the side.

Without pics, we're all just guessing, but since we have established that these are external pits... if there had been some attempt at repairing or filling them, they would not be pits anymore, but instead they would be filled pits. So if you still have craters with a silver halo around them, I wonder if someone didn't attempt to fill them with solder or something, and it fell back out due to poor cleaning, fluxing, or improper temperature. Just guessing at this point.

And I'm asking because I don't know... if Krakow Kid did attempt to have these pits filled by TIG or Laser welding, would filling those pits likely make things stronger or weaker? Specifically, I'm wondering if the heat affected zone would have a change in metallurgy or hardness, or if that would only be a concern with higher carbon or alloy steels rather than what is most likely low carbon steel and soft iron Damascus or twist.

Good advice Miller, on starting very low with any back-yard American Proofing.

Keith, I think you're on the right track.

I have an inexpensive digital camera too and I found that if I set up the camera so I'm not actually holding it and snap the picture using the cameras auto timer I usually get very clear photos. This worked so well that I finally purchased a cheap tripod to hold the camera.

Steve

Steve - I've found that it's even cheaper to have a friend who owns all that stuff(!)

By the way, did you follow up on the existing pictures you can look up? You might have missed it in all the verbiage but here it is again: On the FOPR SALE Forum, post is Nov 03,2014 by poster 'Cable'.

You can even see more than he posted if you click on one of the pictures - it will take you to all the photos on his photobook or something like that. Anyway, there are NONE of the area I' m concerned with, but they will give you some idea of the quality we're dealing with and might hold you over until I can corral my friend to snap some pics my wife can post (or I can send to you).

Best Regards - KK

ps - The little Bellgian beauty I bought from you is holding her own, no problems or cares shooting her!

KK
I'm glad you're enjoying that little muzzle loader I sold you. To be frank, I considered it a keeper but with the life problems I was going through at the time I was just happy to find someone who appreciated it as much as I did. I'm really glad you're enjoying it.
Steve
PS I used to hunt pen-raised pheasants with it at the local put/take game preserve. Have you taken it hunting?

I looked up those photos, a beautiful gun!



I believe I can see the "chip" you mentioned earlier but not well enough to comment. After seeing the gun I can understand why you'd hesitate doing any testing that might result in catastrophic failure.

Steve

Very nice. I wish I would have seen it before you did. Let us know how she shoots once you get to that point.