OK, like most people I have been told not to shoot damascus-barrelled shotguns unless they have been re-lined with modern steel inserts. But in some of the hunting threads I see that people are apparently doing so. In one case the fellow said it was relined, but in many other photos the guns do not appear to have had this treatment.

So, is the 'conventional wisdom' wrong? If it is safe to shoot some of these old guns, how does one go about testing the gun to determine if it's reasonably safe to use?

Welcome Tinker and please check out
http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=366087
and
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1y52UbLaVsDAYd3BJLNTzTnqa7CzuhnbgonQzuYRuLvs/edit
Scroll down to
Damascus Mythology & Reality
Damascus Quality
Barrel Strength and the 1891 Birmingham Proof House Report
Turn-of-the-Century Shotshells, Powder & Ballistics
Barrel Evaluation Recommendations and Non-Destructive Testing

Then let us know where you are and we might be able to recommend a smith nearby with the interest, equipment and expertise to evaluate your barrels.

Thanks Drew; I'm in Seattle, Wa.

In spite of the well spread "common knowledge" that damascus barrels are always unsafe, some people have let the the fact slip that this is not always true. Thereby disturbing a perfectly good sleeper market

The fact is - any barrel, no matter the material can be unsafe, and any old gun should be evaluated on it own merits.


Just remember. Hammers are bad too

Welcome to the "Dark Side". It is very addictive. If you can still maintain some degree of sanity and self-control, be sure and let me know when you run into any of those old, dangerous guns so that I can acquire and then destroy them in order to prevent terrible accidents.

Kody is in the neighborhood, and has some pictures of that scary Damascus stuff on the website
http://members.toast.net/keithkearcher/

He's probably returning from the Las Vegas Antique Arms Show

Tinker,
Good afternoon.
Years ago I bought an early 20ga Flues 1-1/2 with ejectors and damascus barrels as a project. The barrels were sent to Keith Kearcher for evaluation and if they looked good, browning. After examination and discussion, Keith browned them and sent them back. A work of art.

I, like you was also concerned about shooting the gun because of how much I valued my fingers, so the gun sat in a corner for a LONG time. Well, I finally got up the nerve to pursue the project and here is what I did.

I dug up a box of Gamebore 2-1/2" x 1oz shells, and checked on line for pressure specs. The specs I found showed 8122psi and since I will be loading 7200 and 6400psi, I used the Gamebore for testing. I put on a pair of welding gloves, and my son wrapped some old leather around my hands and the action. Both hands were on or behind the pistol grip. Then I wrapped my arms around one side of a big pine tree and let her go. It was time consuming but we did this 12 times in each barrel. I have a bore gage so after the first shot from each barrel, we took measurements and compared to the "pre-firing" dimensions. No change was noted.

I am now fairly comfortable that the barrels won't let go with my reduced loads. The gun is heading off tomorrow to be restocked by Bosesguns. Hopefully they will do a good job. Then, off to Turnbull for CC. It should be a good looking old girl when done. I'm sure I will be upside down in it cost wise, but if it come out right, I'll be happy.

Hillbilly perhaps, but the best I could come up with short of sending them to the UK for proofing. Don't know if that is even an option. Drew has a lot of good info. Read thru what he noted above and make your own decision.

Hope this helps,
Ithaca1
Bill

A great many of us shoot our Damascus and Twist barreled guns on a regular basis. As has been stated already, any type of barrel steel CAN be unsafe to shoot - it all depends on the condition of the barrels. In fact, a good number of shotgun manufacturers proofed their Damascus barreled guns with nitro powder. Have your barrels checked and measured by an expert and then have fun shooting them!

Wow- interesting reading. When theory and real world results are in conflict it's never reality that is wrong. Damascus barrels appear to be subject to exactly the same failure conditions as homogenous steel barrels- overpressure and obstructions. Another myth bites the dust...

Given my experiences with various prejudices in the knife and sword-making industry I suppose that I should not be surprised. My lovely wife heard this and said, "Well, I suppose that we'll just have to find a nice damascus gun for you." Yeah, she's a keeper.

If in doubt, you can always use the "Firestone Proof" technique.

I use the 8,000 psi AA Xtra-Lite 1oz. loads if I proof. For normal loads I either shoot 6,500 psi 1oz. reloads, or AA Low Noise-Low Recoil (6,200 psi) 7/8 oz. loads for regular shooting.

I had an 1850's percussion sxs that was originally proofed 9/10 gauge but the barrels had been honed over the years so when I got it they measured 8.5/9 gauge. Old percussion guns often had slight differences in the gauges between barrels. I decided to shoot it with a standard 12 gauge load of 3 drams BP and 1-1/8 ounces of shot. However, knowing how easy it is in the field to accidentally put two loads of powder in one barrel, I loaded each barrel with 6 drams BP and the same 1-1/8 ounces of shot. I strapped the barrels to a sawhorse put a piece of cannon fuse down the percussion nipple on each barrel and one at a time I lit each fuse while I stood safely behind a tree. After an impressive amount of shock and awe I was delighted to find the barrels held together just fine, no worse for wear!


Here's picture of the gun with its first pheasant.

Ninety percent of my shooting is with damascus and a lot of that is in skeet. My favorite skeet gun is a plain Birmingham boxlock (A. Allen, Glasgow) and it gets thousands of rounds each year. I just never give it any thought. Of course I shoot reasonable pressure nitro stuff. Ever so often, when I'm feeling brave, I load her up with black powder and let loose more atmospheric pollution than a coal fired power plant. Find a good one and join us on the dark side.

That's the plan, Joe, that's the plan.

Tinker: you likely know Steve Culver www.culverart.com

In 2012 he fabricated a crolle pattern barrel



And last year a Bernard barrel



He has been a great help explaining methodology.

This Damascus barrelled gun has been in more or less continuous use for nearly one hundred and fifty years proofed initially for black powder then re proofed for nitro smokeless if it is unsafe it doesn’t know, so please keep your voice down I want to use it this week end.

Thought I'd add this here in case the thread came up in a future search.

By the mid 1890s U.S. makers advertised their pattern welded barrels as "Guaranteed For Nitro Powder"



Lots of information here regarding vintage shotshell pressures
https://docs.google.com/a/damascusknowle...fUOZEFU/preview

Black Powder Pressures:
3 dram / 82 grains 1 1/8 oz. (1200 fps) is about 5000 psi.
3 3/4 dram GOEX FFFg with 1 1/4 oz. (1240 fps) is about 6000 psi.
4 drams of FFF (about 108 gr) with 1 1/8 oz. (1420 fps) is about 7000 psi.

"1895 Smokeless Powders For Shotguns"
http://books.google.com/books?id=Wv0MAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA446&lpg
3 1/4 Dram/40 grains DuPont Bulk Smokeless 1 1/8 oz. = 7440 LUP
3 1/4 Dram/44 grains “E.C.” Bulk Smokeless 1 1/8 oz. = 7584 LUP
Note: Modern piezoelectric transducer measurements would be about 10% higher.

The 1963 George Herter "Reloaders Handbook" lists 23 grains (3 1/4 Dr. Eq.) of Infallible Dense Smokeless, now Unique, with 1 1/8 oz. shot in a paper case with paper wads (card & fiber) at 8,725 psi by LUP, or about 9,500 psi by modern transducers. (Courtesy of Mark Ouellette)

The 1933 edition of "Smokeless Shotgun Powders" by Wallace Coxe and E.I. du Pont de Nemours & Co. reported the LUP pressure for 1 1/4 oz. 3 Dram Eq. of DuPont Bulk smokeless at 9,600 psi.

Thanks for posting that, Drew. Thanks also to everyone that responded. It appears there is as much negative mythology about damascus barrels as there is positive mythology about pattern-welded 'damascus' blades!

I've been shooting them [ lost count - maybe 15 or 20 ] three times a week for about 15 years with reloads around 7000psi - in the cold [ 0 degrees ] around 8600psi with no problems. With my normal loads I get some bloopers in the cold - figger I'm loosing some pressure so I go up a bit.

how come I can just picture 100s of guys without fingers reading this jumping up and down saying don't do it!!!.....

Damascus is one of those choices you get to make as an adult. You do your homework and you come to a conclusion. You then live with it. I've been enjoying Damascus-barreled guns for over 20-years now. It's a shame that they aren't as cheap as they used to be. I know where an 0-framed Damascus Parker 16 is at the moment that is driving me crazy.

I have been shooting Damascus for as long as I have been reloading proper loads for them. Even then the first few times my teeth were on edge. Problem was two fold. I knew factory loads were too hot but many of them had been shot in the old guns before I came along. Had they done unseen damage I wondered? Not apparently as none have failed to date. The second problem was manufactures telling shooters that all Damascus guns were unsafe to shoot. This was in part to generate new gun sales. Easier to sell a gun if you have been told all you own are unsafe. And some makers of ammo knew loads needed to work autos had to be loaded to too high a psi for doubles. They put the fear of God in many, including me for a long time.

Now that the 20ga Flues damascus has been shot without any problems, I think it's time to take the Lewis Gr4 12ga for a spin!
Gotta love it.

Lewis Grade 4? I just picked one of those up this weekend. The barrels appear to be the "American Flag" pattern..It needs a little work, but will be in service by Fall..

I'm a total research monkey- comes of the whole 'being a writer' thing, I think.

Reading SAAMI's website (my God there's a lot of information there) their specifications for cartridge pressures are designed to try to insure that using ammo made to their maximum recommended pressure will not result in a catastrophic failure of ANY gun capable of chambering the cartridge provided that the gun is manufactured for that caliber. Given that cartridges have very long lifespans many calibers are rated significantly under the maximum safe pressure that will cause a catastrophic failure in even the oldest, most poorly made guns it is likely to be used in.

Given that many damascus shotguns are Nitro Proofed and were even more common at the time the standards were established it is reasonable to conclude that any standard pressure round will not cause a catastrophic failure of the chamber or barrel of an 'as manufactured' gun in good condition.

That being said it doesn't mean that a steady diet of modern high-pressure loads is a good idea. The use of high-pressure loads in any weapon will accelerate wear even in a modern weapon of good quality. The barrels are also not the only concern; the frame can stretch, the locks can be damaged etc. Modern loads may be 'high pressure' for old guns even if they don't blow them up.

All in all I'll err on the side of caution and rely on the experience of you good people when I 'come over to the dark side' and get my damascus gun.

Damascus, that is a really nice gun. Reminds me of the one James Mason/Sir Henry was fielding in "the Shooting Party". I just watched it again recently and it is a very good movie. Set with the foreboding just prior to the outbreak of WW I. A look at the end of the Edwardian Era and the loss of a generation of young men. I also enjoy shooting my Damascus barreled guns. The beauty of these barrels will never be seen again. We are fortunate that there are skilled workers that can bring back their faded glory. Fascinating just how many patterns one can find with these barrels.

Mr. Pearce: In your ongoing study of metallurgy, look closely into the theory of "elastic limits". Once you have some familiarity with that component of the science, I believe your comfort level with "the dark side" of shot-gunning will come up a bit.

Lloyd- I'm familiar with elastic limits and my comfort level with 'the dark side' is happily high. Basically I just meant that I'm not going to feed an antique shotgun a steady diet of high-pressure loads, not because I'm worried about the barrels but because I am worried about excessive wear on other parts of the gun.

Excellent. Your're another example of the rapid "learning curve" experienced by people once they become members of this board. All due to Dave and all the other learned folks who post here. This board is truly like no other.

Regards
Ken

Don't want to give away too much in the unlikely possibility I can get someone to publish this stuff but the idea that pattern welded barrels are more elastic than fluid steel may also be mythology. In the tensile testing study, the average % Elongation was 9%; High - 16% and Low - 5% with a slight advantage to the crolle barrels. The average for the 3 samples of fluid steel was almost 14%.
A Parker fella recently did composition analysis on 4 different Parker named fluid steels, but not tensile testing which I hope will be forthcoming.

I've also got the Elastic Limit / 2% Yield data, but here are some historical comparisons

Winchester Nickel Steel, introduced for the 1894 rifle about 1896, and which was sourced from Bethlehem Steel Co. in 1900
http://books.google.com/books?id=YzhUAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA181&lpg
Tensile strength – 106,900 psi, Elastic limit – 81,000, Elongation – 16%

Winchester Proof Steel, developed for the Model 21 and introduced in 1931, 115,000-120,000 psi with an elastic limit of 105,000 psi
http://books.google.com/books?id=9SvbdIv4OKYC&pg=PA57&lpg

Remington introduced Ordnance Steel for the (Model 1894) Hammerless Double in 1897. The 1902 catalog stated the Remington Ordnance Steel tensile strength was 110,000 lbs per sq. inch with an elastic limit of 60,000 psi

Marlin “Special Smokeless Steel” introduced for the Model 1893 rifle in 1897 and Model 21 Grade C Pump in 1907: 100,000 psi with a “very high elastic limit”.

Drew,

Have you ever considered Self-Publishing? I haven't done it yet, but it looks fairly easy.

Regards
Ken

Ken: I work cheap but the failure analysis, metallurgical study, composition analysis, tensile testing, MPI and radiography came to about $2500. I told my wife that we'd make a little money if I could get everything published
If not, I'll just put the infro here
https://sites.google.com/a/damascusknowledge.com/www/home

Yes Eric it does look exactly like the gun James Mason is holding because it is the actual gun used in the film, here is part of the post I had put on another forum some time ago.

In 1984 a friend of mine who worked in the Birmingham Gun trade contacted me and asked would I be prepared to lend a customer of his my Purdey shotgun. It turned out that his customer was a property master working in the British film industry and was searching for a usable antique Purdey shotgun, it had to be the type of gun an elderly member of the aristocracy would have owned around the 1900s and my gun was exactly what he was looking for. After extracting the usual assurances that if there were any damage no matter how slight to the gun my friends life would become forfeit and his children and wife would be sold into slavery and any profits from the sale would of course be mine, not to harsh a deal I thought for what they were about to have on an extended loan. In reality to find a usable Purdey Bar in wood thumb lever shotgun built in 1860s, complete with its original unsleeved Damascus barrels Nitro Proof is rather a rare gun to come across yet alone borrow for the duration of a film. The gun was used in two scenes of the film firstly Sir Randolph Nettleby (James Mason) is holding it talking to Cornelius Cardew (John Gielgud) after Cardew had walked in front of the gun line with a placard, lastly in the scene after Tom Harker (Gordon Jackson) is shot Sir Randolph Nettleby’s loader is supporting it on his shoulder. The gun was not actually fired in the film because the Insurance company where not to keen for the actors to use a hundred plus year old gun, it being the oldest gun on the set even though they were assured the gun was perfectly safe to use with black powder stage blanks by the Birmingham Proof house, probably the disaster that occurred on the first attempt to start filming was still very fresh in their minds. The financial reward I received for my help in solving his problem was not a large sum but enough to have some cosmetic work done on the gun.
At the time I had no idea what film the gun was to be used in but as the saying goes if only I did know then what I know now I would have asked for a film poster signed by all the actors. I do find the final scene of the film extremely haunting because it does not need much imagination to know what is approaching to take the lives of the young men in the film as we the audience are looking at it with full knowledge of the First World War to come. And just a personal note I have always believed that the decline of the English bespoke gun industry was caused in no small way by the untimely deaths of thousands upon thousands of sons on all sides from the upper middle and working classes, caused by the War “no customers after the war and no sons to continue to purchase later on” and of course the same fate was to become the artisans and craftsmen which accelerated the industries demise to the now shadow of its former self. The film is of a deliberate slow pace and extremely well-acted though to be able to understand the English class system which I personally do find unacceptable and very difficult to rationalise as to why so few people should be so privileged and own so much, but there is always a but isn’t there, without it we would not have some of the most beautifully designed and mechanically refined sporting guns the world has seen, built by such names as Holland & Holland, Purdey, Boss, Churchill, Grant, Lancaster, Lang, the list could go on and on. Though the picture of a driven shoot painted in the film of guns at their pegs having loaders passing a reloaded gun to increase the overall take speed all surrounded by the swirl of black powder smoke and falling pheasants you can call it slaughter if you like, though Sir Randolph Nettleby does have a few words to say on that subject in the film. A copy of the film is as close as it gets to us looking through that window in time at a picture of British Edwardian aristocratic shooting history.

Beautiful gun and great gun/film story Closest I've come to that experience was a 5 stand event with a Colt 10 ga. two Parker both 10 ga. a 12 ga. Bate and my 12 ga. Woodward all hammer guns shooting black powder loads. We bent the rules by requesting the doubles be thrown on delay to give the smoke a bit to clear. Really a great round of 5 stand!

If the legend was true that Damascus barrels were unsafe with any ammo, I would have had many blow up on me a long time ago.