I just ordered two bespoke guns, a rifle and shotgun. My guns that I shoot best are 1-3/8X 2-1/4 X 14-1/4". My gun fitting came up with 1.77 x 2.71 X 14.88 for the rifle and 2mm higher stock for the shotgun. I'm a lefty and I know I need a lot of cast on, but I was even surprised at.43" at the heel. The dimensions in metric are 45 x 69 x378 mm with 11mm cast on (gauche). The fitter says that I compensated for the short pull with high dimensions. I'm short and stocky and I've never been able to shoot a stock that long, but I've never tried one with that much drop, either. I'll know this summer how it works out. Any comments?

Allan

Good luck
How do metric guns shoot?

"The fitter says that I compensated for the short pull with high dimensions."

I don't understand, and don't they use inches in TN?
Short pull = face more forward = effectively less DAC.
Full, round face with...uh...adipose tissue around the zygomatic arch (cheek bone) requires more cast and more drop.
Thick chest = effectively longer LOP = need shorter stock.

What is your shirt size? Did you shoot a try gun with those dimensions?

If you are unsure about any of those dimensions, that is , if they dont seem right to you, ...I would put a major hold on the build...you gotta be comfortable , & surely get what you need .
I.d say hold up n think about it some more....two bespoke guns that dont fit would be a nightmare
just my thoughts mate
franc

Your rifle stock dimensions are close to what I shoot on my shotguns.

Since you are ordering bespoke guns as some significant expense you might buy a browning Citori and put a Precision Fit stock on it. You could set up the Precision Fit stock with the dimensions the fitter prescribed and try it. Because there are fat combs and skinny combs cast-off is not an exact measurement.

After your experiment you can sell the Citori and Precision Fit stock and recoup some of the money for them.

Best,

Mike

Find a shooting school with a try gun - get those dimensions set - and try it.
Most better shooting schools (in the UK anyway) have a try gun - often ones in both o/u and s/s types as the result will be a little different.

Just dont let them do the stocks till your sure, is what I mean/
franc
best of luck with them both, but you should get what you want
franc

Iron sight rifle?

Good question, Ken. A scoped rifle should have a high parallel comb that puts the eye precisely in line with the crosshairs of the scope. A rifle is deliberately aimed and shot slowly, whereas a shotgun is pointed and shot quickly.

There should be no resemblance to a shotgun's dimensions.
JR

A 14 7/8" LOP on a rifle is extreme. I agree with the others to double and triple check those dimensions on present guns before proceeding with the custom order.

Craig Libhart

You might make it a little clearer what line of sight you are using for your rifle dimensions. On another point, like about 14 1/2" for my field shotguns, but I do great shooting with a pair of 15 3/4" guns that I will not cut. An experienced shooter has to take the reins from his stock fitter if the dimensions the fitter comes up with are extreme. Your mixing of MM and inches is very confusing to those of us who are trying to help. Are we talking double triggers or single triggers, dimension to front or rear trigger. If a single trigger, what is its position. Who is your maker, inquiring minds want to know.

As you just described yourself, I'd have some concern about such a large drop at heel. Unless you are very slope shouldered, this would seem excessive.

Be sure you don't rush to a custom gun with a non-shooting "fitting". I have no idea of your technique, and this is a big deal, as you never want to adjust dimensions based upon flawed technique.

Fitting is more art than science, and I wouldn't rush into this. If a try gun is available for the specific type of gun you are having made, this is fine. If not, it's nigh unto worthless.

Before having these guns made, I would want to get a stock on a similar gun adjusted to dimensions close to these and shoot it a bit before going forward.

Talking field guns, I do best with something in the 14 1/4-14 1/2 LOP range. Took one with a longer stock to the UK last month for driven birds. I'd shot it low gun at targets and it seemed to work OK. Did not work on driven birds, which don't arrive when you call "pull" and come from all sorts of different angles. After the first day, a bruise on my bicep confirmed I didn't have the gun mounted properly on several occasions--which helped explain why I missed more birds than usual.

Pushing 15" is definitely too long for me if I'm wearing much in the way of clothing.

Reminds me of a guy I guided on a pheasant hunt several years ago. The first day, he shot a brand new Spanish double, dimensions based on a fitting. He couldn't hit crap. The next day, he fell back on his tried and trusted old Parker and shot well. I remarked on that, then asked to see the two guns. The Spanish gun was over 1/2" longer and was also 1/2"+ higher at heel than the Parker. I told him that I didn't think he'd ever be able to shoot both guns well. Too much difference. Maybe he would've gotten used to the Spaniard; maybe not. But whether the Parker had the "right" dimensions for him, it was clear he'd adjusted to it.

I can mount a shotgun ONE TIME and know whether it fits me. O/U, SxS, repeater, doesn't matter. I've also learned that what a gun measures does not always mean it will or won't fit, but it does most of the time.

I have a 32" flat rib Blaser F3 that measures 1 1/2" x 2" x 14 3/4", and EVERY TIME I mount it, I'm looking straight down the rib at the bead, flat , with no rib showing. It shoots where I look.

I also have a 32" DT-10 that measures 1 1/2" x 2 3/8" x 14 1/2", and EVERY TIME I mount it, I'm looking straight down the rib at the bead, flat, with no rib showing. It shoots where I look.

Go figure.
JR

Unless the try gun was identical to the guns you're having built the measurements will change. If you're comfortable with the old stock dimensions you'll run less risk using them than what some gun fitter cooked up.

Incidentally, two good independent gun fitters will almost always give you two very different measurements.

Getting "measured" is just a starting point, not the final measurements people think. It, the fitted measurement is used to set up a stock so you shoot the gun at either a pattern plate, clay targets or live birds. A good fitter will set his try gun up, let you shoot it if possible and make more adjustments from there. Many times he readjust it and lets you try the refined stock. Unless you got to shoot the new stock configuration you are just going by someones opinion of what you need to shoot and he has never seen you shoot anything in your life. How confident are you in that?

Shooting style, technique, form or what ever you want to call it needs to be taken into account. Low gun, stock semi pre mounted, pre mounted, light clothes, heavy clothes, seated in a duck blind or layout blind, hat type, glasses worn all go into what you need. Just mounting a try gun in a shop and seeing what gets you eye lined up with the front bead is not a real fitting.

Put simply if I did not get to shoot the new "special", and sounds like totally different measurements, I would never have them made into bespoke guns. Why would you do it? Find a gun to alter the stock on and shoot it first. Refine as needed, then order you custom stocks.

Did your "fitting session" involve a pattern board and actual targets? If so, at what distances? Your guns or theirs?
What methods were employed to determine these dimensions?

Since a flat plane contacting the rib at its extremities is the standard reference point for stock measurements, it's entirely possible that two guns with identical stock measurements will shoot differently (for the same shooter) due to variations in rib pitch (the relationship between the rib and the bore centerline). Just something to keep in mind.

If no shooting was involved, it was not a fitting session, but a bull___t session and I would strongly suggest a second opinion.

OK, John, I figured.

I figure that, if it were the same gun with 2 different stocks, meaning the rib/bore relationship was unchanged, those dims might result in a POI change of only 3-4" at 40 yds....essentially the difference between a 50/50 and a 60/40 pattern. That difference would be indiscernible to a lot of shooters.

Since they are 2 different guns, likely with different rib/bore relationships, it's even less mysterious that both could shoot "where you look."

Because the ideal drop depends on the distance between my pupil and cheekbone anchor point, all I have to know is the drop at my eye (DAE) to know where a gun will pattern for me at 32 yds. Consider a parallel comb stock versus a sloping field stock and it becomes obvious that for both to shoot to the same POI the critical dimension they share is the DAE.

My 26" 20ga Fox and my 32" 12ga Fox (and others in between) have slightly different DAC/DAH/LOP but virtually identical DAE of 1.55". They all pattern where I look, essentially flat at 0-2" high @ 32yds.

The key is that 1/8" at the eye correlates pretty darned well to a 2" shift in POI at 32yds.

My trap guns are a 1916 Ithaca Flues SBT with a straightgrip and dims of 1 1/4" x 2 1/8", but the DAE is 1.40" and, not surprisingly, it shoots 5-6" high @ 32yds.

OTHO, my 1974 Perazzi SBT has a full pistolgrip, palmswell and Monte Carlo stock, but with a DAE of 1.38" it also shoots 5-6" high at 32yds.

In a similar vein, a case can be made that LOP as measured from the trigger to the center of the butt is pretty useless. LOP would be a much more meaningful and useful number if it were measured from the center of the palm to the butt.

I would agree with your first point, though the dimensions should be close and will give a good idea if the OPs measurement session did produce good results.

I can't agree with the second point. Two good independent gun fitters should produce 'similar' if not identical results. The reason is that the gun fitter is fitting the gun both to your physical dimensions, but also dynamic shooting style. If very different results are obtained from different fitters (one gun, one shooter), either the shooter is inconsistent, or one of the gun fitters is not up to the task.

I have been fitted twice (two different guns, two different both experienced and respected fitters) and the results were very close (within 1/8" in all cases). Bearing in mind this was for an o/u and a s/s, I regard this as consistent. The s/s also ties exactly with another s/s I was sold as 'fits you like a glove' by a very experienced and reputable dealer some years before (without a formal fitting).
I shoot well (for me anyway) with all of the guns - and they feel 'right'.

A lot of good comments. I believe that the primary reason for the longer stock is that the fitter noticed that I crawl the stock forward when I mount a gun. He kept trying to adjust so that the contact point between cheek and stock was back off the comb. The fitter used iron sighted rifles with a variety of stock heights to find one that worked to place the sights in alignment. I have always noticed that most guns I shoulder have the front sight way up out of the rear notch. The drop and cast he picked lined me up perfectly with the irons. I have several guns in the shop with that much pull. I'm going to have one bent to his dimensions and try it.

One of the downsides of fittings are that more often than not you come away with a surprise, usually a longer LOP than you would have thought. And then, the other surprise that no gun out there will fit you.

You cannot take fitted dimensions as law. 2mm difference between rifle and shotgun stock dimensions??? Would you really even notice that?

Length of pull also has to remain flexible depending on what the gun is going to be used for and what time of year. Are you going to be hunting in a heavy coat? How were you fitted? In a light shirt. Clothing can have a big effect on LOP as I am sure you well know.

A few years ago I met Chris Batha at the Vintagers in Maryland. He did a dry fitting with a lazer in the bbl of his o/u try gun.

He asked what I was buying and what is the intended use. I answered "A model 21 from CSMC for high pheasants from a tower."

The gun arrived with LM & MOD chokes as ordered. At the next shoot a fellow two pegs away said loudly "Hey Crowley Don,t you ever miss?
danc

I've been saying that for years, Mike. My term would be "reach to butt"(lol), and a corresponding "reach to trigger" also.

Thanks for your analysis, I think it is correct. I need to measure DAE on both guns. What puzzles me is, with the dimension difference between the two guns, why I'm not seeing a little more rib on the Blaser when I mount it. But if the DAE is the same or very close, that would explain it.

I would like to meet the fellow who was fitted for my two 15 3/4" Evans sidelocks in 1911.

You would not like to see him now in person would you Eightbore? He is long gone. True he must have been a tall or lanky fellow but not that rare. I had three great grandfathers who were each over 6' 4", one who was near 6'7" or 6'8". Shame we got shorter as time went, while others got taller.

Jon: you have any kin who shot around KC?



BTW" 'crawling the stock' is a compensatory mechanism for lotsa drop, or a long stock, and contrary to the 'head up' mythology is how most of the turn-of-the-century gunners mounted their 3 1/8" DAH doubles
https://docs.google.com/a/damascusknowle...Z3d3Eno/preview

Dr. John Truitt at the 2013 Smith vs. Parker Hammergun Challenge



Jessica Rossi - Italy, London 2012 Olympic Gold, Women's Trap with record 99x100



Gibben Miles, FITASC World Championship 2012 and Nad Al Sheba Shooting Championship in Dubai 2014 winning $140,000. Gibben is tall, muscular and with long arms

Stock crawling is a style of shooting that is used by more than a few high average competitive shooters. It was my style until I started using crossover guns.

Might have had the same fitter as I had. I'm 6'2" and was fit at 15&5/8".....way too long for anything but pre-mounting on a warm day. My favorite game gun is 14&3/4", high comb and heel and I shoot it quite well. In cold weather getting that 15+ inch stock to my should was nearly impossible. Much happier now.

On most 14-1/4" guns I shoot I see about the forward third of the barrel and I typically float the bird above the bead to compensate for a high shooting gun. I took a factory stocked left handed Merkel 8 from the rack and tried it. It is hard to measure its cast on dimensions, as it has a cheekpiece and a little monte carlo. But I look straight down the rib on this gun. This gun measures 1.5 X 2.25 X 14.6". Unlike many of my using guns, I see about the front one-fourth of the barrels when I mount the gun. I first shot the gun at 20 yards. I actually closed my eyes and mounted the gun, then without changing the cheek position, placed the bead on the target to fire. Both barrels, with very tight chokes, pattern the shot completely above the point of aim. So I then added a 1/2" slip on pad to lenghten the LOP to 15.1". Repeating the same procedure at 20 yards, the pattern was lowered about 12 inches to place it completely below the point of aim. This is to be expected. It is only geometry, after all. Nevertheless it is a dramatic effect. So with the lower dimensions the fitter measured, I should look straight down the rib with only the bead and the muzzles visible. If I need to adjust the vertical positioning of the pattern, I can raise it by shortening the stock. The guns ordered will come with removable wooden buttplates which will facilitate LOP adjustment if the fitting isn't perfect. I found two more guns in the racks with 15-1/4" and 16" LOP, respectively. Now I'll have to try those to see what happens.

Gun fit is something that is really hard to evaluate yourself. This is because there is a natural tendency to adjust yourself to fit the gun, treating the rib as a sight. You obviously understand this and have the right idea in closing eyes and mounting the gun - but I do feel that an experienced gun fitter is really needed to make sure you are mounting consistently - particularly being consistent between the mount used at the stationary pattern plate and on real moving targets.

A fitting session I had involved shooting about 50 clays, various shots, under the fitter's supervision/observation - no instruction, just the fitter observing how I mounted, swung, looked and shot etc.

We then moved to the pattern plate where I mounted and shot instinctively at the mark on the plate - with the fitter checking I was behaving like I did at moving targets and hadn't started using the rib like a rifle sight - and so using a slightly different technique in mounting the gun.

For normal shotgun shooting, the eyes should be watching the target all the time and the mounting of the gun should be instinctive, consistent and the swing and motion of the gun should develop as part of the mounting process. In theory when the mount is complete - the properly fitted gun will be correctly aligned at the instant the mount is completed.

The shooter shouldn't really 'see' the gun consciously at all.

Its all very hard indeed to do oneself.

Since my fitting I have adjusted my current guns' length of pull with a strap-on pad. It makes their dimensions just about what the fitting measurements came to except for the drop at comb. Surprisingly I find that I shoot them quite well with an extra 5/8" LOP. My gun is now completed, and just needs to be shipped to the importer. I ordered the gun with two sets of screw chokes and 28" barrels that are steel shot proofed. The maker indicated that monoblocked barrels are stronger than the other ways of making barrels, so I chose that method. I also asked if possible to make the 12GA gun with 3" chambers. The chambers are 76mm and the gun weighs 6 lb, 5 oz. I'll get a whack when I shoot 3" shells, but that won't be often. I wanted 3" chambers and steel shot proofing for shooting pheasants in South Dakota, where steel shot is required and 3" steel shells are most common. Also, I ordered standard wood, a wooden buttplate, and all the free engraving they were willing to put on the gun. It is finished in French Gray, so I did splurge and added a french gray steel grip cap. The gun is a true left hand gun in all respects, with a left hand toplever and reversed double triggers and the stock dimensions, including left hand cast I mentioned earlier.

I should mention that I have had the 8X57JRS O/U double rifle for about 2 months and the long stock is just about perfect for me with irons. I have a little trouble getting enough eye relief with a scope, but a different scope will address that. The gun weighs 7 pounds scoped and will put two Hornady 180s within an inch and a half of each other at 100yd.

This gun was made by whom. I can't find where you mentioned the maker. It looks French to me, maybe P&V?

Good eye. It is French. Verney-Carron.

I'd take good eyesight over custom fitting any day of the week.

When I was a young'un I could shoot at and hit just about anything within reach of the gun, and it didn't matter what the gun's dimensions were. I am one of the humans who was born with arms that bend at both the elbow and shoulder and a neck that can move a few degrees. That always did, and still does, take care of the gun fit issues. What I don't have now are eyes that can put it all together.

Boy, you said a mouthful there. I wholeheartedly agree, and my experiences have mirrored yours. One exception for me is that I absolutely cannot shoot a shotgun well that doesn't have enough drop. I will not tolerate a gun that I have to cheek too hard to make it shoot flat. Fortunately, with vintage guns, that is seldom the case.

SRH

I have no interest in gunfitting. However, oddly, I can't stand to be forced to look at a lot of rib. I thought I was alone in this, until Stan posted. Fortunately, I have mostly guns with sufficient drop. Not to disparage the original poster, but, in my opinion, many shooters who seek gunfitting are poor shots who should learn to shoot before they seek an expensive gunfitting and a new gun. Experienced shooters who shoot well normally know what they need in gun fit better than the fitter does.

You can lump me with Stan and eightbore on this.....as I do like some drop as found in the older guns, especially if descending birds are in the mix.

A short story of one of the better clays shooters at our local club who always shoots high-combed guns. We had a vintage event coming up that he wanted to enter inspite of not owning a SxS. I offered him the trial loan of a Fox Sterlingworth with 3-1/4" drop at heel......which is a lot by most standards. I asked him to simply mount it up from a low-gun position and tell me what he saw. He did, and related that he could only see the thumb portion of the toplever and no portion of the barrels whatsoever. I then asked him to take five minutes out back of the grounds mounting that gun on tree tops, power line transformers, flag pole tops, etc. and giving complete concentration to what he was looking at on these objects.

Having done this, he said he could make that work, but only by keeping his cheekbone was well above the comb line. Told him not to fuss about that detail, but to place hard focus on the clay regardless of cheek position. With that he went forth to try a practice round of five-stand with a strange-to-him gun and broke a very respectable 21. He was probably the most incredulous one there that day, and couldn't understand himself having done it without having a hard cheek plant. Shows that we can be somewhat adaptable to what we have to shoot with at times. True story........

I used to use a Ruger Gold Label for everything. To give you an idea of my shooting skill, the fellows I hunted with complained that I shot too many of the birds we put up, and that I should only be allowed one shell in the gun. I pointed out that one shell was all I usually needed unless I was shooting at two birds! So the gun fitting wasn't because I can't shoot, but that I wanted a gun with true left hand configuration and my dimensions. I am tired of having to take some crippled right hand gun and modify it to the true left side. I also wanted to eliminate the problem of seeing the rib when shooting as I know that the physics of shooting builds in inherent over or under (mostly over shooting) when you can see the rib. I wanted the bead to be the only thing visible and the fitting does that for me.

You guys that don't believe in gun fit must not shoot competition clays, at least not at a high level. I guarantee you the National Champion of I don't care what, skeet, sporting, trap, or wtf ever, shoots a gun that fits them. Likely, if all you shoot is pen raised game, I would agree, gun fit probably does not matter all that much.

It's not that I don't "believe in gunfit". They shoot guns that fit them, buzz, absolutely. I have been fitted by a gunfitter that had me to shoot at a pattern plate many, many times, too. That is not the point. The point is that even though you might shoot your best in a round of 100 while using a gun the "fits" perfectly, many of us can shoot within three or four birds of that number with a gun that may differ greatly in dimensions.

I certainly do not shoot at the top in registered sporting, with the likes of Miles, Matarese, McGuire, Cherry, Fowler, etc. But, I punched into Master class at the U S Open in 2010 shooting an out of the box BSS with a leather lace-on pad to increase the LOP. It has nowhere near the dimensions of my MX8 comp gun, which fits me perfectly. I shot in M class for several years, then lost interest in it and almost quit shooting registered stuff and they bumped me back down to AA this year, which "tickled me pink". My goal is not to be the "National Champion". Again, the point is that there are many of us who can shoot within 3-4 birds, of our best with a fitted comp gun, while shooting any number of guns with differing dimensions. Also again, as long as they have enough drop to let me stack the beads without pushing my cheek down on the comb too hard. One inch difference in LOP, more drop .......... no big deal.

And, in reality, if I am having a really good day with the "stock" BSS I will shoot BETTER than I will shooting the fitted MX8 on a mediocre day. And, the MX8 is the one that supposedly fits me best, according to the gunfitter's recommended dimensions.

SRH

Fitting helps you hit, ie the shot going where you point, but there is also the part of recoil attenuation and elimination of painful situations, like upper arm bruises etc.

I had a parallel experience only in reverse. I always have shot best with a flat sight picture and detest high-combed guns. Picked up a SxS a couple years ago with a very high comb with the thought of rasping it down to fit. As I worked through it I began to realize that I could hit quite well when I just looked at the clay and shot without any regard to the sight picture (which was clearly out of my comfort zone). The gun must fit, but it doesn't fit like the other SxS's I have that "fit."

Pen raised game? Huh? I've never shot any pen raised game. I've shot plenty of natural game and lots of clay targets.

I never said gun fit doesn't matter. It just matters much less than a lot of other things, eyesight in particular.

Teasedale-Buckell tells an anecdote of a gent who once had a try gun session. When he had a gun made to the dimension, he couldn't hit anything with it. The gent complained, and the gunmaker began to explain that their records indicate that the gent was left-eye dominant, and... "But it's impossible that I should be left-eye dominant" - said the gent. "Why not?" - asked the maker. "Because my left eye is made of glass!"

That's a funny and great anecdote. Also a great point. Your gun fit may only be as good as the person doing the fitting for you. Parker as well as others had try guns back in the heyday of SXS shotguns. Many of the Parker shotguns I have received records on, have the DAH DAC, AND LOP recorded. Some of these guns have almost 4" of drop while another only has 2 1/4". The reason I guess is many of us are built differently, and also have different shooting styles. A good fitter that understands the business of fitting can customize the dimensions of your gun to match your physical dimensions as well as your shooting style. I was fortunate enough about 10 years ago to spend an hour or more doing a fit at Michael Murphys in Kansas. It was money well spent.
It's not that I can't make things work, heck I grew up in family of 4 boys on a very small budget. Just ask me how many different size shoes I could make work.
Nothing beats a hunting boot, running shoe, or dress shoe that fits properly. I feel the same way about my shotguns.