Fellows, as you know I have been selling Spanish guns for many years, importing direct from the makers. The Spanish makers want to know why they are not selling as many guns in the USA as several years before. The US market was at one time their biggest. Not now. So give me your input so I can forward your concerns and ideas back to them. Helping with this will help them understand what going on in the US to better address concerns about their products and distribution in the US

Thanks a bunch

John Boyd
Quality Arms
Houston, TX

Priced themselves out of a market?...Geo

I agree with George and you loose so much when you sell them. Bobby

Same as most mid priced guns in my opinion, the market is dead. I sold a cheap but very shootable British SxS recently to a retired gentleman. We talked over this very thing. He mentioned that he and his friends at one time could spend 5-6K on a gun and it was not a big deal. No more. He was shopping sub-1000$ and he said his friends now might go up to 2K, but they are not buying higher priced guns as the amount of disposable income available to them has decreased. I hear the same thing from many blue collar/middle class guys. The guys with the money, well that is a different story. I personally do not feel we have recovered from the economic down turn of 2008 and that is why the gun market, including Spanish guns, is still quite stagnate.

I agree with George and you also have to understand that the number of bird hunters are declining particularly in areas that have had a steep decline in the Pheasant population.. I also think in general people take better care of their guns today and,as we all know, they will remain useable for a long time if properly maintained.
Additionally many younger shotgun buyers want something like a Benelli.
Anyway my take on it.
I acquired this AYA Gr. 2 Two barrel set at an estate sale some time ago. Just for the heck of it I contacted AYA, gave them the specs and asked for a current quote last year.
The quote came back at right around $14,000 and this didn't include taxes or shipping!


Jim

after ww2, spanish gun makers made guns of vastly different quality. those of low quality have ruined the reputation of other spanish made guns. aya/diarm is the clasic example.

plus, quality competition from gun makers in turkey and japan make it tough to compete in today's shrinking double gun market.

Their markets here were and are mostly middle-class folks. Unfortunately, those are the people most affected by this present economy of ever-increasing costs for staples (food, gas, & medicine) but limited opportunities for new jobs or pay increases in their present positions (assuming they still have jobs). Also, a lot of the double-gun crowd is either nearing or in retirement. When discretionary spending (and this is all about "discretionary") is limited by unstable economic conditions, these types of "toys" are the first thing to go by the wayside. That has been the downfall of many specialty-market manufacturers over the last hundred years or so. Look at Parker, or LC Smith, or even Duisenberg, Cord or Auburn. All had great products, but couldn't compete for the ever-shrinking market. Not much good news in that for them at the moment, and little good-news on the horizon, it seems.

I was absolutely ready cash in hand to buy an AyA 4/53 but when I saw that the resale of a 4k gun was 2500-2800 dollars tops after just opening the box I decided a used gun was good enough for me.

I got a 4 year old 4/53 that is hard to tell has been fired for $2700 "out the door." I worry that I shouldn't have just bought an Uggie and saved another 1000 bucks?

CHAZ

As Steve said, there has been very little upturn in the economy. If a person has the money to spend on a nice side by side will pick whatever they want. The question being are the upper end Spanish guns now worth the 10% to 15% increase in price we've seen over the last year. The middle class guy looking for his once in a lifetime special gun will be more likely to buy used. Our interest in side by sides put us in a niche so small that it rarely is part of the statistics for yearly shotgun sales. If we look at the past we find Winchester might not have made a profit, and if I remember correctly there were more 00 and field grade LC Smiths sold than all the Parker's combined. If anyone has an answer please share as the answer is important to me also. Mark

Many of the ads that I see in sporting magazines are those that show camo automatics. Most of my hunting buddies shoot SxS's and our kids shoot automatics.
It could be $ as mentioned above, but I think the "cool" factor is alive and well and automatics are now cool.

Value/price is the answer, as noted above. Widely known that Spanish guns lose significantly on the used market.

Couple that with rising prices, and it's a non-starter...lots of others, better guns, that can be bought for similar money or just a bit more.

The final nail here is the tighter U.S. economy. No matter the fairy dust coming from the administration about growth, the average American family is pretty tight these days. A nice gun is a luxury; Spanish guns are luxury items of the middle class that's living much lower on the hog.

The AYA two barrel set I posted above was made in 1983. Thirty years ago it would have sold new for around $5,000. I think many on this forum could have afforded to buy it then although it may have been a bit of a financial stretch.
How many here can or would want to shell out $14,000 for this set today? Other factors regarding current firearms interest aside the whole economic picture from what I see has changed radically in the last decade. Other than for the very well to do I believe the upper end new double market will continue to constrict as the potential client base continues to decline.
Jim

John--

You have always been kind enough to answer my questions, so I'll return the courtesy and attempt to answer yours. But, be warned, as far as the value of my response--I'm just a occasional gun purchaser and not an expert.

My potential loss on resale doesn't bother me, though I'd be tempted by a bargain on something sold ANIB (like Hoof's purchase) that somebody else has taken a hit on. There is the perception of a 'golden age of Spanish gunmaking' that ended when the troubles began in 2008, so anybody looking for 'the next great thing' may be looking to Anatolian Turkey rather the Basque region of Spain (and people who buy luxury goods are always looking for the next great thing--it's a status marker). I'm personally a little put off by some the quality issues that I've heard about Spanish guns having in the last four or five years. Stories of retiring craftsmen, uneven production, etc., even if it's just the internet rumor mill, make me nervous. Michael McIntosh did so much to popularize and validate the idea of a Spanish best, and he's dead--there's no bringing him back to life. The value proposition that other posters have mentioned may have gotten out of whack--nobody is repeating McIntosh's mantra of 90% of a London gun for 10% of the price anymore. The numbers don't work. And finally, those beautiful Spanish guns were never really for the 1% (or for the middle class, for that matter). They appealed to high salaried professionals and executives and the business owners who populated the next 9% or so. Like driving German sheet metal or taking the right kind of vacation, they were delightful for their own sake, and offered a kind of status currency. But, make no mistake, those customers are very money conscious. And that crowd is quite dazed and confused, these days.

Anyhow, those are just random thoughts. It's also possible, I suppose, that there is nothing wrong with the guns or the market, and the problem lies in how the guns are being sold--i.e., the distribution channel has failed and a new sales model needs to be developed.

I don't know if all of that is just disorganized drivel, or if some small part of it is useful. Good luck with your chore.

at this moment there are about 1100 sxs shotguns for sale on gunbroker with starting bids of $1000 or more. there are no bids. i have never seen the market for better guns to be this poor.

I think the answer lies in these four questions:

1. Each year, how many hunters and/or target shooters decide to become a "vintage style" double gun shooter for the first time?

2. Each year, how many current double gun owners decide to add another "vintage style" double gun to their safe without selling/trading one in exchange?

3. Each year, how many vintage double guns actually become unusable and are retired?

4. Each year, how many new "vintage style" double guns are made?

I don't know the numbers, but the current double gun market run has been going on for about 30 years, and I would guess that supply has more than caught up with demand - pricing certainly would indicate that.

I think the issue is particularly tough for the Spanish makers, because target shooting is the one area that continues to grow, at least according to the NSSF, and they do not sell target guns in the US. As has been alluded to by others, hunting upland birds with light sxs is not a growing market segment.

Of all of the hunters and shooters I know, I would estimate that maybe 20% have any interest in owning or shooting a "vintage style" double gun. The guys I hunt with the most think a Beretta OU is more than adequate for their needs - and their choice is not limited by their pocketbooks. They would would characterize it as picking an Acura over a Alfa Romeo.

Sidelock OUs for target or hunting might be an area worth exploring - other than CSMC A10s, there are no options available for less than $25k new. But they would have to be based on the Woodward/Boss designs, and not the Merkel double under lump that AyA has used in the past.

And since you asked, my only experience ordering a custom mid-range Spanish sxs sidelock ended badly, as the gun was not well made. Fortunately, the importer agreed to take it back, but that was after a long wait for the gun (including several missed deadlines that had been agreed upon in advance) and a fair amount of kibitzing to get things worked out. The importer probably should not have sent it to me, but the maker should not have shipped the gun in the first place.

Purely IMO, several reasons:

The primary market for Spanish SxS shotguns here in the UA has been the middle class. The low to mid middle class favored the less expensive box lock guns while the mid to upper middle class favored side lock guns. The middle class has been especially hard hit by the ‘recession’ (And I think the term depression is more accurate), and is having a hard time buying groceries and gasoline, much less SxS shotguns.

The Spanish gun makers, with their own set of problems, have needed to raise prices and drop the low end (“affordable”) models of shotguns. Add together more expensive guns and a market with less money and fewer sales are the natural result.

Another, wild card, factor has been the Spanish tax guns. About six, seven, years ago The Spanish government created a tax on the ownership of shotguns. It was a yearly tax, per gun. The result was thousands upon thousands of used shotguns were either sold to local gun shops or just turned into the Civil Guard. US importers (most notably CAI) bought and brought into the USA several thousand of these guns. Quality and condition was all over the place, but I was buying the equivalent of AyA No 1 or Ugartechea model 75 side locks shotguns, in VG to EX condition, for under $600 on Gun Broker. I was also buying, from gun shops in Spain, the equivalent of Garbi model 200 and Grulla Royal for between 1500 – 2500 Euro.

In short, that flood of tax guns killed the market for new Spanish SxS shotguns of all grades. Two years ago I was offered a matched pair of AyA No 1 shotguns for 12,000 Euro. The guns were made in the late 1950s, were absolutely top price point guns (they even had Purdey locks), and were in perfect condition in the original fitted two gun case. The guns were in Spain and I could have had the restocked to my measure by a Spanish gun maker for under 1000 Euro for the pair. At that time AyA wanted 15,000 Euro for a single No 1 gun, similar to but of lesser quality than, either of the pair from the 1950’s. Given that kind of choice, who in his right mind is going to buy the new gun?

These are the reasons, in my experience, why the Spanish gun makers are selling fewer shotgun today than they did ten years ago.

I'd say that the most recent price increases have seriously hurt the Spanish makers. When you could get an AyA #2 for about the same $ as an RBL with 2 or 3 bells and whistles, a lot of people went with the AyA. Now, with the AyA around $2k or more higher than the RBL, people begin to question whether it's worth it to pay that much more for a sidelock vs a boxlock.

The Turks have received some mention here. I don't see them as competition for the Spanish makers, except maybe Ugartechea at the bottom end of their line. The Turks have yet to make a double that's sold in any kind of numbers for more than $2,000. The Kimber sidelocks were initially priced higher than an AyA #2--which likely explains why they were a flop.

What it comes down to is this: If you want a decent NEW sidelock, the Spanish are still the least expensive. But that "least expensive" is a lot more expensive than it used to be. Which causes people to wonder how badly they want a new sidelock.

Look at what is being made in the US: Winchesters, Parkers, a variety of very interesting and very good s/s's and o/u's. Most of them competitive with the Spanish prices. Why buy a Spanish knockoff of an English gun when modern designs are being made and sold in the US.

I recently bought my dream double gun and started out looking at some spanish doubles and was not impressed with the fit and finish. Next i looked at Italian guns and was impressed with the fit and finish. The other plus was the Italian gun i got was rated to shoot steel shot and 3". I went back and checked and the spanish models i looked and i would have to bought an extra barrel to get 3" and a steel shot rated barrel was not available. I decided to not pay more for less gun. I have plenty of old doubles i cant shoot steel in, why would i buy a new one that would have that limitation. Im age 54 and bet that before my shooting days are over lead will be a thing of the past. Im fortunate that i can aford a nice toy every now and then, but i still want the best bang for the buck.

tom: popular wisdom says, not many "old" doubles are suitable for steel shot. generally, most guns made prior to the late 1980's have barrels made out of steel that is too soft to handle steel without scoring. plus, steel shot seems to cause barrel bulges in tighty choked guns. curiously, what "old" doubles have you found to be suitable for steel shot?

I have to agree and add my two cents. The last increase killed the Spanish gun market I believe. I have owned several Spanish guns, Grulla (which I had several made for me), Arietta, AYA and Garbi over the years. All were nice guns, some better than others.
I can remember when an AYA #2 was around 3K. Now it is up to over 5K and if you want longer barrels that is an increase in price.
If I am going to pay close to 10K for a side by side I would prefer a English sidelock.

One of the things that the Spanish makers have working against them is that the price on used Spanish doubles has not been keeping up with the price on new ones. If you want $6-8,000 (or more) for a new double, it helps if the used price on the same model is 70% or so of the price new. In the case of Spanish guns, it seems to be more in the 40-50% range for guns in quite high condition. Most buyers will buy the used gun and tweak it to fit.

I say this having just bought a new AYA 4/53 28 gauge, which I got at a very good price in Cabelas' Hamburg, PA store. Had it not been deeply discounted, I'd have moved on, but the price I paid seems to be about 25% more than similar quality used ones sell for and about 1/2 of what the Bournbrook models (which appear to be finished quite similarly to mine, including the engraving pattern, save for the action on mine not being "round") being imported by M.W. Reynolds. A $3,000-3,500 new Spanish boxlock is reasonable. The same gun at $6,500 is going to sit a long time on a dealer's shelf.

Great comments by all, you are are really helping out here, loved to other folks comments too.

I will send these comments and ideas to Spain

Best and looking forward to hearing more!

John Boyd
Quality Arms

Great thread; lots of truths here. Depressing truths, but truth is what it is.

And I agree that it is mendacious to call the last six years anything but a depression. Just look at it from the point of view of those who lost everything and never recovered.

Forget the causes, we can argue about that until the cows come home (if the repo man hasn't got 'em!). Look at the EFFECTS.

The Great Depression ended production at a number of fine gunmaking (and automobile and aircraft)companies. In tough times, art generally takes a back seat to basic survival. If the business cycle isn't totally interrupted by something cataclysmic, in about 60-years or so, maybe these fine little Spanish guns will become the darlings of a new crowd of doublegun fans?

John,

Do you have any information on the sales of SxSs other than Spanish? Are they dropping, too?

Kyrie's point about the influx of many used Spanish guns a few years back is correct. I, too, bought several wonderful guns at crazy-low prices. These are probably still damping down the market for new Spanish guns. Also, many of those cheap used imports were not good advertisements for Spanish guns.

But I wonder if other countries' gunmakers are facing the same shrinking market?

Tell me about the service and support network for Spanish made guns should I purchase one from a direct importer in the USA.

Are parts available?

Do parts readily interchange?

Who does warranty work?

Can I call someone in technical support and get an understandable answer?

In general, the question would be (and at the current price point, the answer needs to be satisfactory for the consumer). "How is the old world product interfaced to the modern world?".

Note how KIA has captured market share using extended warranties and locally available support.

Simple. They should leave the EU.

Spain adopted the euro in 2002. In 2002 1 euro = 0.90 USD. Then the euro seemed to forever rise relative to the USD. It’s softened some but a euro still trades around $1.30

Things would look a lot different if $1=1.30 euro.

Then again if oil was $45 a barrel and I could still afford bacon...

A few years ago I was eyeing pretty hard a bespoke Spanish SxS in 16ga. I knew there was a big difference between original purchase price and what I could resell it for, but that didn't matter because the orignal purchase was a good deal.

Then there was a big price increase, so it was no longer such a good deal, plus the used market did not rise accordingly. Sort'a a one-two-punch. This convinced me that the guns were no longer a good deal.

Not saying they aren't fairly priced, but if we are talking fairly priced, then there are lots of guns out there to consider.

The Spanish guns require an advocate. It isn't that they cannot make/build good guns as much as it is that at the present moment they do not have anyone to champion that fact in the manner that M.M. did in the recent past. Weigh the preceding remarks fairly and the need becomes even more apparent.

Heck, I don't even know who the best read double gun scribe is any longer. As much as I like Garden & Gun on the face of the concept, they mostly muck about and sort of hit on the shotgun note from time to time. Sometimes it lands off-key; not always. I was really pleased to see the one page article on helice in the last issue. Their pub, is a semi-niche audience, but it is exactly whom the Spanish need address. Perhaps some of the better Spanish makers would do well to include them for an article covering their better made &/or bespoke guns. Driven shooting in Spain is among the world's most exclusive & so are some of the clothes & guns. Folks here are generally unaware of that. If you wish to market something at the top, the buyers have to perceive the exclusivity is there, enough to justify the purchase price.

Aston's & Maserati's are not sold cheap yet they have a less than stellar resale value. Same thing may be said of some BMW's.

Just some idle thots, but you asked.

John,
In 1997 you were selling a new small bore Arrieta 570 for $3850. That gun today is $6996, an increase of 81%. The average household income in the USA in 1997 was $54,000 and today it is $51,000. (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States) I'm no math wizard, but it seems pretty obvious. I should have taken out a loan back in the 90s and had several Spanish guns built. I would love a heavy frame Arrieta 28 gauge Model 871, but at over $8k not gonna happen, even though it is still a great deal. They used to be an amazing deal and it's hard to forget that.
Regards,
Jeff

Demographics and economics play a big part, but also to blame is the undermining of the double gun concept by the makers themselves.

It is easy to superficially copy an English SXS. The problem is that the copy does not have the two basic elements that made the English prototype so coveted: feel and custom fit.

Ironically, autos have progressed and offer stock adjustablity and choke selectivity, while doubles have no similar advance to show, plus they lost the handling and balance of the originals. No wonder the new generation of shooters prefer autos.

Formidable podriamos culpar a ex Attorney General Eric Holder. Su rapido y furioso error pone la responsibilidad en los Hispanios que hechan los escopetas muy mucho expensiveo!!Quizas: AYA, Grulla, Armas Garbi,Arrieta y Pedro Arrizabalga. Yo crelo que Sr. Holder estan un borrachon y gringo muy estupido, porque el costo de su Craso error con los Banditoes Mexicanos, y nosotros estan pagando eso costo. Que lastima!! El Zorro

Shotgunlover: Very astute observation! I own both English and Spanish doubles and you're right on the money. Best definition of the gulf between them I've seen yet.

One thing no one seems to have addressed is the marketing or lack there of for Spanish guns. I know they are advertised in Shooting Sportsman and one or two other pubs but these are really niche or limited distribution rags.

If you look at the market from an affordability/income standpoint, there are customers out there who just don't now it. And they never will.

You say that the number of shooters desiring a SXS or wanting to hunt with one is small. So is the market for 4x4's for folks who actually need them. Its all marketing. how else do you sell a $50,000+ 4x4 SUV to an urban dweller and he thinks he really needs its capabilities? Marketing.

Maybe oversimplifying it but using the usual "Tony G does it" mantra; well its true, he does do it. And his marketing strategy is???
Yes costs impact demand but marketing is used to get people to buy crap they don't need!
So, if you want to appeal to the old fogey crowd, by all means SS is the way but for the 30 something's, I think a better approach is needed.

maybe I am nuts but its part of the problem

That better approach Brian is realisable only via TACTILE selling. If you do not heft a really good double your appreciation is limited to visual impact.

Once a potential buyer shoulders a good double, and his body, not his brain, gets that feel of proper balance, then he will understand that his hunting pleasure will increase. It is a matter of pleasure, not investment. Till that message can put across he will go by visuals and price.

A story. When I was 19 shopping at Whaley's gunshop in London eyeing a new 1100 at 140 sterling, he took a Webley and Scott, at 156 sterling, and put it in my hands. "See what you think of this one" he said. The contrast was telling, but then the price difference was only 16 pounds.

Can we get back to that kind of price difference? Ingenuity and technology can do it, but mental inertia won't allow it.

To add some names to the above assertion that ingenuity and technnology can render a good handling double, at a price comparable to a good modern auto.

If you ever come across a Bernardelli folding Game Gun, yes folding and cheap I know, pick it up and heft it. It is a super example of a good handling double that can be offered at less than 1500 USD and would sell if the client picks it up, not just looks at it.

Too expensive for a gun which loses about 50% just walking out of the showroom. Too little money chasing that price range at the moment. Too many good competitors, especially from Italy and from Galazan. Last gun I bought was an Italian O/U hand finished and engraved used at $6000 and it is extremely well done.

If you want a hand-made game gun, on a frame scaled to the gauge, very nice wood, hand-engraving, two triggers and a dainty splinter, then Spain still provides the best gun for your money. I'll admit, most of that may make you a purest, but the originals that these guns are copying are all getting fairly old, somewhat fragile, and more importantly, noticeably more expensive as well. I'm grateful that Tony Galazan is still making decent American double guns, but....human hands never touched the RBL during it's manufacture, and O/Us will always be target guns to me.

Get comments from you guys, very helpful.

John Boyd
Quality Arms

Exactly what Shotgunlover writes. There is a "feel" to a well balanced, good handling gun and the current Spanish guns have captured it.

This should be a selling point, but many people cannot tell the difference even if they shoulder or shoot a well balanced gun and then a clunker.

It is truly mind boggling that this feel cannot be captured in cheap guns. It shouldn't cost any more to make a nicely handling gun than one that is ugly to use.

That said, the AyA #2 used to be, in recent years, the largest selling SxS in England. Wonder if that's still true? I seem to recall that they are relatively cheaper in England than in the US.

How could you not want to hunt birds with this 6.25lb 20-bore Woodward OU (assuming someone else paid for it)?
Woodward OU

Too bad the Spanish makers don't seem interested in producing a facsimile of this gun . . . .

1st point
If I have read once, I have read 100 times, that the Spanish makers struggle to deliver guns as ordered. Consistently.

2nd point
I care not to waste a moment of my time arguing with a gun dealer when the item delivered does not match specifications.

Both of those points seem to occur simultaneously for too many buyers. I suspect most buyers do not match their new gun with their order form.

Current 'list' price for an AyA No 2 in the UK is GBP 5700. I'm not sure what discount you would get, but that is HUGELY more than a few years ago.
But many European guns have gone up a lot as well, notably Beretta

Gentlemen,

A couple points to ponder. The first point is re-sale value.

The re-sale value of a used gun, in perfect condition, is about 60%. If I were to go into any gun shop and buy a brand new Ruger GP 100 and immediately offer to sell the gun - still NIB – back to the shop they would offer me about 60% of what I just paid. If I offered the gun as a trade-in, they would permit about 75% of the price to be applied to some other gun. That’s just the reality of the gun business, as a business.

And yes, a Spanish side lock shotgun is not a Ruger GP 100. It has an even worse re-sale value. Spanish shotguns are artisanal guns. They are hand made to the customer’s requirement. They are, in essence, like a hand tailored suit. How much would you expect to get for a used hand tailored suit?

The other point concerns the misapprehension that Spanish shotguns are just copies of English game guns. They, generally, aren’t.

The vast majority of Spanish shotguns are European game guns, made with the hunting conditions in Spain in mind. It’s easily possible to have a Spanish shotgun maker produce a European game gun with an English flavor to it (AyA has made this a major part of their business model). It’s also possible to have the same gun made with a German flavor (think pistol grip stock with cheek piece), or an American flavor (think single selective trigger). The Spanish gun maker will do these things because the buyer asks; not because they know no other way. These are artisanal shotguns; they are Spanish made European game (or competition) guns, with whatever styling the customer has requested.

Good point about the "tailored-suit" aspect. Some certainly are, but many of them aren't. Standard built guns are on the racks as we speak. Another aspect that nobody has mentioned is the devaluation of the American Dollar. We don't notice it so much domestically, but it's a big deal when international trade is involved.

Respectfully, and with no offense intended, this is one of the least understood and appreciated areas of Spanish artisanal shotguns. There are no standard built guns. All of the artisanal makers, from Arrieta to Zubillaga, don’t start making a gun until they have a customer, an order, and a deposit. If you, or I, or a retailer (think “Orvis”, or “Trust Eibarres”) order one gun or ten guns work doesn’t start until the maker has the order with gun details and a sizable deposit.

If that hypothetical ten gun order was for ten guns made to the same set of requirements, then upon delivery those ten guns are going to look pretty much as if they came from a standard pattern. They didn’t; they were just made to the same set of requirements. This is why we find sets of guns from a maker that aren’t in that maker’s catalog, with model names that also aren’t in the maker’s catalog. Some retailer ordered some number of guns made to a pattern he thought would sell well, with a model name he thought would appeal to his market. Not standard guns– guns made to the same set of custom(er) requirements.


Truth that!

The Federal Reserve was founded in 1913 and the US dollar has lost 98% of its value since then. We went off the gold standard domestically in 1934, off the silver standard in 1964, off the gold standard internationally in 1971. That’s the point at which the dollar stopped being money and just became currency.

For those who don’t know the difference between money and currency, behold – two one dollar coins:



On the left is a one dollar (silver) coin minted in 1879, on the right is a one dollar (base metal) coin minted in 2000.

The 1879 year dollar would have bought 20 loaves of bread the day it was minted. Today, if that silver dollar was sold for its silver value the proceeds from that sale would still buy 20 loaves of bread.

The 2000 year dollar would have bought most of one loaf of bread on the day it was minted. Today in would buy less than half a loaf of bread. The metal it was made from was worth less than a dollar in 2000, and is still worth less than a dollar.

Money has, and holds, intrinsic value. Currency didn’t, and still doesn’t.

kyrie: wonderful post. love your discussion of the difference between money and currency. hope to hear from you again.

If you like old guns, it isn't much of a stretch to like old coins and the history associated with that line of interest. It is very useful to understand how gold and silver have worked in our monetary system and in the rest of the world. Going forward, it may be critical. What something is "worth" means different things to different people. Tangible assets, of which guns and gold are both good examples, are very likely to become very important in this "fiat" (meaning "unbacked by anything tangible, other than a promise to pay") currency-dominated world.

It should come as no surprise to anyone that the gun market cycles up and down; it has always done so. The trade prospers when the market is up and suffers when it is down. Down tends to “shake out” the weak players; so it is in most markets.

I have shopped Spanish guns since reading (and re-reading and re-re-reading, etc.) MM’s “Spanish Best.” I guess we’d have to say I remained unconvinced; never bought. Not sure why, either. I am very sure that perception is a big factor and brand name is a major selling point. Perception of brand name seems to be made up of firm longevity, production level, % of production in high grade guns, enduring firm creativity, and social acceptance. Might be interesting to work out a consensus grade for the various Spanish makers in the above factors. That might well point them in the direction they need to improve.

Most of you know that I have a data base of objective handling. Curiously, I find that most subjective handling assessments to be heavily based on brand name. That is, swing effort lies more in the eye of the beholder than in the hands. Take the following two guns:

AyA #2 12 bore with 28” bbls and 15” LOP – 6# 11 oz, 4 ½” balance to front trigger, unmounted swing effort at 1.57, mounted swing at 7.03, and half-weight radius at 10.45

Boss SLE 12 bore with 30” bbls and 14 ½” LOP – 6# 11 oz, 4 5/8” bal to front trigger, unmounted swing effort at 1.57, mounted swing at 6.85, and half-weight radius at 10.43

If presented the two head to head for handling, most shooters will decide that the Boss has better “balance” (the common term that is used as a summative of handling properties). Clearly, the two guns are indistinguishable objectively. BTW, there is no objective summative term; a gun’s handling description requires weight, balance, unmounted and mounted swing effort for a complete description. There is no doubt in my mind that Spanish makers are perfectly capable of producing guns with handling to match any reasonable pattern.

Some makers have weathered “downs” in the past by being innovative. Seems to me the Spanish might want to market guns with both bespoke stock fit and bespoke handling. A number of modern target guns have been produced with adjustable stock dimensions and adjustable weight and weight location. Missing is how to deal with handling fit.

Since this post is meandering anyway I will throw in my two cents (worth every penny). I may have ordered a gun "bespoke" if the wait time wasn't one year plus. That is if you actually get what you ordered in the end.

I can't understand why none of the larger importers don't order a certain number of guns which can be quickly altered to fit as a "semi-custom" gun. Order the guns full and full and bore the chokes to customer preference. Order the stocks long and without a pad installed or the butt checkered. Have them cut, the butt checkered or a pad installed and bent to customer specifications. Don't look at it as a way to up the price, just charge enough to cover the work and deliver a gun in weeks instead of months (or years).

The Ugartecheas at Lion Country Supply are a great example. It seems to me they carry a decent inventory, but every gun is the same. Same barrel length, same chokes, same stock dimensions. It is true I could just buy what they sell and modify it to fit me, but you can't make a short stock longer (I am 6'4") and you can't make a loose choke tighter.

CHAZ

If I'm not mistaken Terry Wieland authored the book "Spanish Best".

great input guys, this is really helpfull



John
Quality Arms


Thanks so much!1

DDA

One additional thought. Spanish guns seem to have put on some weight in the last couple of years. 28 gauge guns used to run around 5 pounds 10 ounces to 5 pounds 13 ounces. Today you have to look hard to find one under about 6 pounds 2 ounces to 6 pounds 4 ounces. (I focus on the 28 gauge because that's what I was looking to purchase.) It seems true for 16s, which are approaching the standard British 12 gauge game gun weight of 6 pounds 12 ounces. The 12s are now running up to 7-1/4 pounds. I'm sure some of this results from strengthening the guns to handle the higher pressure of American factory loads, but if you're marketing to a traditional game gun buyer, that matters as well.

The 2009 AyA 4/53 (20 gauge) I just got (with a 15" stock) is 5 pounds 14 ounces empty. That would put it right at the "rule of 96" for a 1 ounce load.
CHAZ

Spanish guns might be a bit heavier in that their barrels are mostly new and comparable English guns will likely have had their barrels polished out several times over a gun's useful lifespan. Certainly, guns made for heavy loads (and use) will weigh a bit more, but most of the Spanish guns I've owned or looked at were right on the money for weight, with 12s ranging from 6 1/2 to 6 3/4 lbs for a standard game gun (28-inch tubes, 15-inch LOP). The few 2-inch guns I've handled were a bit heavier than their English counterparts, and that is clearly because of wall thickness differences (not as many attorneys in the 1930s I guess)._

Alas, not happening. The stock LOP and chokes are the least of it.

How about DAC, DAH, cast and pitch? And rebalancing the gun when the stock is cut shorter?

And the guys who want thirty inch barrels, twenty-five inch barrels, or something in the middle. Then there are the folks who want a Churchill rib, or a Woodcock rib, or a swamped, concave rib, or some other damn thing. And the people who want extractors rather than ejectors, or an assisted opener. Or the guy who wants a live pigeon gun rather than a light game gun – or the fellow who says a plague on that, I want a medium game gun.

There’s a misapprehension here. The weight of a Spanish shotgun is determined by purpose of the gun, within the constraints of the configuration desired by the customer. A light game gun will usually run lighter than a medium game gun, and the medium game gun will usually be lighter than a pigeon (i.e. competition) gun. There is no standard gun weight because there is no standard gun. Here’s an example:



Both guns are 12 gauge. The gun on the right is an AyA model 53 built as a classic medium game gun. The gun on the left is a Luis Arrizabalaga model 228, built as a live pigeon gun. See the difference? The medium game gun is made for the occasional driven hunt, or for boar, and will be fired maybe a few hundred times a year. The pigeon gun is made to stand up to week in and week out high money competition, and may see a several hundred shells a week.

Those are examples of medium to heavy guns. Here is a light game gun, a 12 gauge Ascensio Zabala:





Note the thin and narrow action and the absence of any reinforcement or bolsters. This is a light game gun, made to be “carried much, shot little.”

When we see a significant difference in weight between two Spanish shotguns, we’re seeing two shotguns with different purposes.

Kyrie:
A very informative post. I for one had no idea they were configured this way in Spain.
What would a customer expect to get if, for example, they ordered a custom built Spanish gun and specified it was to be used for Quail and Grouse but also as a regular Skeet gun?
Jim

Kyrie, is your Luis Arrizabalaga from the late 1930s ? My two barrel set pigeon gun is nearly identical to your engraving and date marked 1937.

Value. They were good value , not anymore.

Mine is also a two barrel set, proof year 1952.



As an aside, I had a choice between that gun and a functionally identical AyA model 56 two barrel set. I chose the Luis Arrizabalaga because it had better engraving and was a little better finished.

From what I remember reading, several of the major Spanish players made a conscious business decision to move upmarket. Looks like they made that decision at the wrong time (recession) and now it is biting them in the butt (literally and figuratively). Example: Arrieta dropping a couple of their lower-end models. Didn't Garbi drop the 100 because it was priced for hand chasing rather than hand engraving?

Combine bad decisions with the recession and the $/Euro exchange, and it's a recipe for trouble. When you could buy an AyA No. 2 Round Body small bore with long barrels, new, for $3195, I was hot to get one but kept buying other guns instead. At current prices, I don't need that No. 2. Lots of the alternatives have seen much more modest price increases, so those alternatives are a lot more attractive. I'm an Uggie guy now, and quite happy with them.

Kyrie, I had not seen very many Spanish guns, but when I saw the one similar to yours, Made for the Duke of Donesta, I thought how it could not be better. It is a beautiful gun, even compared to many guns from other countries I have. It is made as a Pigeon gun. More history if anyone cares.

Jim,

What you would get would depend on a host of factors, the two biggest of which are how well he understood your usage and his own predilection for how best to get that usage out of a gun.

Just saying ‘for hunting quail and grouse’ would probably be unwise. One of the factors that determines a gun’s proper weight is how much it will be carried, so the needs to know the kind of hunt the gun is for (“On any given day I will walk five miles over mountainous ground.”, or “I shoot driven game, and walk very little.”). Another factor that governs weight is how much the gun will be fired (“I regularly shoot one round of skeet a week.”, versus “I regularly shoot five rounds of skeet every day.”)

American hunters have a one-gun-does-everything mindset that is foreign to Spanish gun makers. To them, shotguns are like golf clubs; every gun has, and was made for, a specific purpose.

For something like chucker where a gun is carried over miles of bad terrain and fired maybe three or four times a day a light game gun is preferred (for a 12 gauge, weight generally runs in the six to six and half pound range). The Ascensio Zabala is a good example of a light game gun. Light game guns are lightly built, and require lightly recoiling shells. It’s not unusual to find the butt stock of a light game gun has been significantly hollowed out to balance the gun. Heavy loads cause excessive wear on the action and may actually break the stock.

For driven shooting where the shooter is on stand and cannot move, and will shoot dozens of birds in a day, a medium game gun is the “golf club” of choice. Medium game guns typically run seven to seven and a half pounds. An “all round” medium game gun will have two barrels. One set of barrels would be choked M/F for bird hunting, and the other set of barrels would be choked IC/IM for use with buck shot and slugs on boar.

Competition guns, like the Luis Arrizabalaga, are very special purpose guns, are very heavily built, and may run eight pounds or better. They are typically choked full/extra full, or at a minimum IM/F.

All that said, people do go the gun makers and want a dual purpose gun made. That’s done with the understanding that the resulting gun will do both jobs (say, bird hunting and skeet shooting) acceptably well, but neither job as well a purpose built gun would.

The Luis Arrizabalaga is an example of a dual purpose gun. Its primary purpose is live pigeon shooting and the secondary purpose is a medium game gun. It has a set of barrels choked IM/F for competition shooting and a second set of barrels choked IC/M for “feather and fur” hunting. Its weighs weight depend on which barrels are mounted (the competition barrels are heavier than the hunting barrels).

Remember the context in which the Spanish gun maker works; hunting has historically been a pursuit of the royalty or at least the landed gentry. These are the folks who could afford to buy shotguns like golf clubs, and that’s what they did – a gun for each purpose.

This is a mindset that is foreign to American shooters, and is one of the biggest reasons Americans get into trouble with Spanish shotguns. I know of at least two cases where guys bought light game guns, treated them as if they were heavy competition guns, and then bitched about low quality Spanish guns when the guns came apart. Conversely, it’s common for Americans to buy medium game guns expecting to get light game guns, and then [censored] and moan about how the Spanish cannot make a gun with the proper weight.

It was the only decision they could make. They couldn’t make any money on the entry level guns, and in some cases actually lost money on each of the low end guns sold. Mark my words; the least expensive Spanish shotgun is going to cost 7000 Euro. They will lose money on any gun sold for less. That’s not the choice of the Spanish gun makers, that’s the reality of the cost of making shotguns in Spain in today’s world.

Folks are complaining that these prices put them out of the market for a new Spanish gun, and saying they will punish the makers by not buy Spanish guns. Gentlemen, if you cannot pay what the gun makers have to get to say in business, the makers don’t want and cannot afford your custom.

Sorry, but there it is.

And the Turks are right there, a click of the mouse away.

Very nicely explained, Kyrie. Lets up the ante and go objective. It is one thing to say, "Make me a medium game gun." and quite another to say, "Make me a gun with the following envelopes of weight, balance, and swing efforts. And, by the way, I'll not pay if the specification is not met."

The English gunmaker knew that his job included "sizing" the gun for the customer's intended use as much as hitting stock dimensions. Shooters come in all sizes, strengths, muscle speeds, and shooting styles. It is unrealistic to expect the Spanish master to "check all the boxes" for a customer he has not even met, much less visited with and watched shoot. Thje
Brits had something of a relationship with their gunmakers.

Per pigeon guns - if you follow them closely you will find some rather small ones made for smaller shooters. Clearly pigeon guns, but with game gun weight. If you are a small guy, guess what you will get if you order a pigeon gun and fail to note your size.

Kyrie, how would you expect a Spanish maker to react to to the following hypothetical order? 7# 8 oz - 8#, 4 1/2" - 5" balance point to front trigger, unmounted swing effort of 1.9 - 2.1, and a mounted swing effort 10.0 - 10.5?

DDA

And the Turks haven't built anything even close to what the Spanish turn out day to day. I, and several of my friends, have owned Turkish sxs. We don't own them anymore. They were a lot less expensive but, guess what? You get what you pay for. And comparing English guns to Spanish guns is silly. The Spanish do make wonderful handling guns that are very reliable and you can get one for less than $10k. I don't know of any new English sidelocks under $40k. We were spoiled by the prices of these guns until Spain joined the EU.
I love the idea of a dealer bringing in guns with headed up but unfinished and rough shaped straight grip stocks. You could even have a big enough piece for either a POW or straight grip and have spare engraved trigger guards on hand. Unfortunately, most folks who want a bespoke gun want to buy it off the rack. I shoot a Perazzi and ordered mine exactly how I wanted it. I was willing to wait 6 months. I have convinced quite a few people to buy Perazzis and they have almost all bought off the rack because - they were unwilling to wait a few months. If you're a dealer you are damned if you do and damned if you don't. Pacific Sporting has unfinished DT11s in stock and for just a few hundred extra $$ you can have a custom stock. Curious to see if they sell well. I want the Spanish to succeed, but don't know how they can do it. DIARM wasn't the answer, but maybe a little bigger company is the answer. I guess I could pony up for a gun and help them out.
Hopeful,
Jeff

I'll as my experience, for what it's worth. I've owned a variety of Spanish guns over the years (AyA, Arrieta, Sarasqueta, Ugartechea) and I'm a degenerate gun trader...the Spanish guns have not treated me well in the resale area. I have a pretty good eye for a deal, but have never made $ or even broke even on a Spanish gun. I've owned a variety of other continental doubles and all the American classics and have generally done well with trade/resale...over the past few years the entire sellers market got tougher, but ESP with the Spanish offerings.

I purchased my first Spanish gun (Ugartechea Grd 20 gauge) from Lion Country Supply in 2005....new it was $1100. It was a lot of value for the money. I believe that same gun now is $1800....not a lot if value at that price, in fact prob overpriced. I recently bought a 2nd Grd 1 20 gauge Uggie from a guy in another forum, I believe 2011 manufacture, for $1000....that a BIG price difference.

Now, I'm not a well-healed gent, I'm a humble public servant with a family and the cost of living over the past few years has killed me. I couldn't afford a 4/53 or Arrieta even at the "old" prices....with he prices now I believe the Spanish makers have priced themselves out of their target market and are in a sort of retail limbo.

Kyrie, 7000 Euros is well above the price of a new AyA 4/53 or No 2 these days--and that's AFTER hefty price increases, across the board. Assuming your estimate is realistic, that means the Spanish are no longer in the mid-range sxs market, but have moved exclusively to a higher level. Indeed, if you can't afford the prices, then you can't afford the guns. On the other hand: is there enough business at the 7000 euro and up level to keep the doors open at AyA, Arrieta, Garbi, Grulla etc? Especially when the used market in this country will offer plenty of Spanish guns from the same makers for far less? Looks to me as if it's a problem as much for the sellers as it is for the buyers.

Larry,

I think there are a few different, albeit related, topics here. Let’s break it down a little for clarity.


I don’t believe that’s the case, at least for the AyA No 2. John from the UK has kindly provided a current list price for that gun in England:



A quick trip to Google Finance provides the current GBP to USD exchange rate (1.5972), so 5700 GBP is currently 9104 USD, the USD/Euro rate (same source) is 1.2511, so $9104 is at present 7277 Euro. There it is; AyA No 2 is already listing for over 7000 Euro.

I have no idea what current list is on an AyA box lock of any kind and wasn’t thinking of box lock guns when I made the “7000 Euro” comment. Candidly, I’m a little surprised any Spanish gun maker is still offering any box lock shotgun, but box lock guns are another subject – let’s leave that for another day.


Hmmm. I suppose the AyA No 2 and 4/53 could be considered “mid-range” SxS guns in some overall SxS market. But looking only at Spanish SxS shotguns, those guns are bottom price point.


In my opinion? Maybe. The only hope any of the makers have in the near term, assuming the financial and banking world of the Euro doesn’t improve dramatically, is dropping the breakeven and loss leader models and raising the prices on the mid to high price point guns. That might buy them enough time to outlast the political and financial blunder that is the EU. It’s for sure that none of them will last if they keep selling guns on which they take losses.


The USA market isn’t going to make or break the Spanish gun makers. We have been the Medicaid of the Spanish shotgun market for decades; not much money, but a consistent small income. Right now, every Euro is important to the gun makers and they miss our small contribution, but we’re too small a market for the kinds of guns they need to sell for us to be terribly significant.

And there is this: the Spanish shotgun makers are in the business of selling custom made guns. Used guns don’t threaten them, because their core customers want custom guns made to their specs. Any gun made to fit someone else just doesn’t interest that core clientele.



I’m not sure to what you refer with “it’s”. If the “it is” refers to the price increases and/or the dropping of the bottom price point models, then “it’s” a solution for the sellers, even if “it is” a problem for the buyers of the guns.

I may be wrong but I’m getting the sense here that you believe the USA demand for low price point guns is a significant factor in the health of the Spanish gun makers. I don’t believe that’s the case, and the gun makers certainly don’t think so. That’s why Arrieta, Grulla, et. al. dropped the bottom price point side locks from their catalog. The makers clearly have decided they must exit the low price point markets here and in Europe to survive.

Kyrie, we're in the good old US of A, not Europe. No need to look farther than the advertisers on this website to establish the going price for an AyA #2 on this side of the pond. It's about $6,000, give or take a little--unless there are extra "bells and whistles". Straight off the Quality Arms website. Or scan the Cabela's Gun Library inventory. I just bought one from them, new in the box, tagged at $4700. If they were selling well here for $6,000, I doubt Cabela's would have lowered the price to that extent. But they try to sell them here for $9,000, and they'll have about as much luck as Kimber did with the Turkish-made Valier sidelocks for the same money (back then) as an AyA #2.

Bottom price point . . . you're obviously ignoring Ugartechea.

As for how well they'll do on the European market: Since there are decent used British sidelocks available over here for well under $9,000, and since they're usually less expensive in the UK than they are here, I'm thinking that banking on the Euro market may not be a good choice for them. I recall reading that at one time, AyA was the best-selling sxs in the UK. At $5K or so . . . new Spaniard or vintage Brit? The new gun from Spain might get the nod. At $9,000? I'm sure Dig can come up with one heck of a British sidelock for that money. Not a "best" . . . but then an AyA #2 isn't a best either. Nice enough gun, but it is their entry-level sidelock.

And you can do a bunch of custom work, including restock to fit, and still come out ahead of an entry level Spanish gun for $9K.

As for how small the market in this country is or isn't, not hard to poke around on Guns International and come up with a lot of in the box Spaniards awaiting a new home.

If things are that bad over there, then maybe joining the EU will spell the end of the Spanish trade. Too bad, but DIARM did them serious damage back 40 years or so.

We'll just have to whisper in Tony Galazan's ear that it's time for him to start making Holland-pattern sidelocks. His track record proves that he'll have buyers standing in line.

Kyrie, you present a lot of good and interesting analysis. It may not help the makers though. If the makers are already doing all they can, and they need to hold out for economic and currency swings, it may be risky to count on the market coming to them. I wouldn't be surprised if there would be ongoing competition in a changing economy. I think there has to be a real or strongly perceived value to increase sales.

Well, now. This discussion just took a bizarre turn.

John shared the current price AyA charges to make him, or you, or me a new, bespoke, AyA No 2.

You claim that price is wrong because of the prices you see on guns already here in the US. Do you really not understand those AyA No 2 guns here in the US are used and/or old and in all cases were someone else’s bespoke gun?

Never mind. I give up.

Bespoke. Pardon me while I bepuke.

The guns are ordered for 'stock'.

Dealers do as much business that way as they ever do ordering custom jobs for a specific customer.

Suppose there might be a price break on a quantity run of standard guns?

Old? The one I just bought was made in 2013, so not exactly ancient. And most of the ones John has, and I'm pretty sure all of the ones Cabela's has, weren't "bespoke" by anyone. Standard dimensions, barrel lengths, chokes, etc. That's been the Spanish market in this country pretty much forever. Buy one, modify as needed (shorten or lengthen stock, open chokes or install those evil screw-ins) and away you go. Works quite well for those who don't want to wait a long time to get exactly what they want . . . and maybe not get it anyhow. If the Spanish can't work with an "off the rack" market, then it is a wise move for them to abandon any thought of selling many guns in this country. Maybe they can make up for that by selling far fewer but more expensive guns. Or maybe not.

I’ll share my limited experience with Spanish shotguns. I only discovered Spanish shotguns in 2010 and when I first seen them I had to have one. First time purchase, wanted to order a “bespoke” hand crafted shotgun, so I went to the dealer, got all properly measured up, picked my options, and put my order in for a $5000 mid-grade gun with 50% down. Waited a few months to get the shotgun and when it arrived, I found it had no cast off as per my measurements and order. It was a disappointment for a once in a lifetime purchase of a custom shotgun. From my experience, I would never again bother with ordering another “bespoke” gun from Spain, what’s the point. From now on when I do buy another gun, I will buy something off the rack with dimensions that are close enough to fit me. At least when you are buying off the rack you can see and feel what you are buying. I don’t know what the problem is with the Spanish makers not getting the orders right, maybe the English language is too much of a barrier, and the specifications get lost in translation. Don’t get me wrong, I do like their shotguns, but no more “bespoke” guns for me. In my opinion, if someone orders a custom shotgun to set specifications, then as a gun manufacturer you better get it right, there is no excuse.

This whole story played out on a much smaller scale when I was in the business of importing French Darne shotguns.

It didn't end well. You can't buy a new one, in this country, today.

The only differences I can see from here, are, I never, ever, had (nor would I have tolerated) a complaint about incorrect dimensions on a delivered gun, including weight, any nonsense about improperly hardened steel, and I gave up on the notion of guns produced for "stock" pretty early on, since fit was so important.

The lower grades of guns in the Darne line all eventually did go away-the company was working off of inventory, and when the inventory of forged actions and bits was gone, it was going to be gone for good.

Better to sell an R17 over an R11, or a VHS instead of a V19.

So it goes with the Spanish, as well, I'm sure. I wish them and their US dealers all the luck in the world.


Best,
Ted

Gests,

the 'list' prices for AyA in the UK can be viewed in total at http://www.a-s-i.co.uk/
I am assuming this will be accessible to those outside the UK.

I just went back and looked at the AyA quotation I got around a year ago to build the No 2 I pictured previously in this thread.
I had bought this 2 barrel cased set out of an estate and was wondering what it would cost to duplicate today.
The quote was $5900(just for the basic gun with one set of barrels) with no extras exclusive of shipping and taxes.
I have to agree with those who have stated that AyA and probably other quality Spanish makers have priced themselves out of the working/middle class market.
Jim

Does the AyA #2 actually sell at the list price (£ 5700) in the UK? If so, their selling price is > 50% higher there than here in the USA.

In regards to Arrieta dropping their 557 and 570 models because they couldn't make a profit selling them . . . why couldn't they have simply raised their price on these models to give them an acceptable profit margin? It would seem to me that they would have maintained a greater pool of potential buyers by doing so. Am I wrong?

I can't give a firm answer on that, but this will probably (doesn't state) include VAT (tax) which is 20%. You may also get a discount. I can't say because I would never buy new now. I have a No 1 (made 1977) and a Senior (made 1980) - both bought used and much better value in my eyes that way.

The UK is, however, an expensive place to live.

John,

The guys have given you a great deal to ponder over.
My 2 cents is much the same:
1. I have 2 AYA nr 2s that I got from Cabelas pretty much as Larry Brown noted. New guns for about $4.5k that I thought were a great deal. Not so much at the current prices.
$8 to $10k buys a pretty nice used Brit gun, so why not buy the real thing?
The price increase is/was a real problem for me; it was too large, put new Spanish guns at pretty near the same price point as used second tier Brit guns. There are huge numbers of used Brit guns coming across the pond.
2. Before buying the AYAs from Cabelas I tried to buy a new gun from Grulla.
That was a total joke. Months would go by before I got an answer to the simplest question. And these were in Spanish. A absolute waste of time, they were NOT interested in my business.
3. As several guys noted the current on going Obama economy is a disaster unless you are a 1%er. The Spanish raised gun prices just when the US economy went into the dumper and it has not come out yet. Nor will it until the idiots are out of power. That is at least 2 more years.
4. People who want a twice barrel shootgun are buying Turkish or Russian guns for around $1k that are no where near as nice as a Spanish gun but they work and can shoot steel. I have a friend who has 5 of them. If one should break, he throws it out and gets another. Or they are getting Uggies, which are still a very good deal.

best wishes!

{quote=arrieta2]Fellows, as you know I have been selling Spanish guns for many years, importing direct from the makers. The Spanish makers want to know why they are not selling as many guns in the USA as several years before. The US market was at one time their biggest. Not now. So give me your input so I can forward your concerns and ideas back to them. Helping with this will help them understand what going on in the US to better address concerns about their products and distribution in the US

Thanks a bunch

John Boyd
Quality Arms
Houston, TX [/quote]

Texasquailguy,

It is not just in the US that the Spanish have worked their magic.

Their round bodied boxlock is up there in price with the Italian competitors, like the Ferlib Euro, around 8000 Euro. The difference that they do not seem to pereceive is that the Ialian versions have signed engraving from superstar engravers and finish to match.

Also, while AYA is promoting the round body, FAIR in Italy comes out with a fully CNC machined round bodied boxlock selling for under 2000 Euro.

See the problem? The AYA is not realistically able to either stand next to the top Italians or compete with the entry level ones.

One last detail, a Perazzi MX12 or MX20 can be found in Italian retail stores at around 7000 Euro. I doubt that Spanish makers can mobilise brand loyalty that can resist that kind of alternative.

I believe it's all a matter of price. About 8 years ago I went to Spain,toured the factory's and ordered 2 Grulla's. At the time landed price was about 7K Canadian each. I inquired last year about a 28 gauge built to the same specifications and was quoted almost 14K. The Grulla's have performed well with no problems and were very well finished but at the 14K mark there are a lot of other options.

Perhaps if the Spanish makers got some hot chicks in their ads, like those Three Italian Fausti gals- aany one of whom can "picca mia stromboli" they would boost their sales, plus harden some tools in the cutter grinder area of the shop- que che va, si???

Including me. I think I now have six Turkish made shotguns; four SxS and two self-loaders. I won’t use a Spanish gun for something it was never intended to do.

But, to paraphrase King Juan Carlos,

“When I talk business I speak English. When I talk of love I speak French. But when I talk to God, I use Spanish.”

When I hunted I used a Remington model 31. When it comes time to take care of business I reach for the Police Remington 870. But when I want to feel God Himself smile, I carry a Spanish side lock.

This is very interesting, but the answer is simple. I just got back from Spain, talked to shooters there, watched a tournament, went to gunshops, quizzed the owners.

The reasons are EXACTLY the same for flat sales in the US as they are in Spain.:

1: Jobs
2: Jobs
3: Jobs
4: flat or declining income among the employed.
5: declining small game populations.
6: less access to hunting
7: higher cost for access to hunting
8: bureaucracy
9: cultural, generational change driving demand for OU's, semis.
10: increasing urbanization

The posh SXS is the MG or bugeyed Sprite of today. It may get you there, but its still mainly a curiosity for people with disposable income.

Which is a pity. If things dont change, the workshops of Eibar and Elgoibar are going to go the way of the passenger pigeon, and soon.

Well and succulently put, and I entirely agree.

Succulently? Succinctly? Either way, thank you.

A comment on depreciation:

I bought a new Garbi AG in Spain 12 years ago. They hosed the stock job, refused to make it good. I sold it a couple years later, and still managed to turn a proper profit.

The point is there's no hard and fast rules. Not every gun depreciates. Not every gun will make you money. And unless you're in the trade, who cares?

This is just an aside but I think at one time there were some nice O/U's coming out of Spain, Laurona has always been my favorite. The fact that many of them have double-single triggers is a big part of that. I just recently got this 12/20 gauge 2 barrel set. The 20 gauge barrels weigh the same as the 12 gauge barrels even though they do not have ribs on the sides due to the larger spacing.
Why did the O/U's "go away?"
CHAZ

Ouch. An all too helpful spell checker and a proof reader asleep at the switch. In any event, you’re welcome.


I’ve been financing my Spanish shotgun addiction by selling off the Lugers, P.38s, and Mauser C96 pistols I’d collected over the last forty odd years. It’s a little startling what a Walther HP or Artillery Luger will bring in these days. OTOH, when my mother passed on we just about couldn’t give away her S&W model 64.

But all told, it’s a rare day when one can sell a current production, commonly available firearm, purchased at retail, for a profit.


But, at the risk of a really odious pun, that’s right on the money. There was a time when I was in this for the money, but now it’s for the fun of it. My heirs and assigns have a bigger interest in what my guns will bring when they are finally sold than I do.

I had to buy Euros for the Spain trip. Returned the leftovers yesterday and got a shock: I lost money while I owned them!

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/09/upshot...nav=bottom-well

The flip side is, those Spanish doubles are getting cheaper by the hour.
Place your orders now, ladies and gents. No fooling, if it gets to 1:1 i might have to go into hock and get a brand new one.

Oh, yes. In the currency wars the dollar has so far been a clear loser. Which makes Euro priced Spanish shotguns dollar cheaper and, I suppose, demonstrates the old saying, "every curse contains a blessing."

Let's watch what happens in the Nov. 9 Catalonia independence referendum. If Catalonia does try to exit Spain the fox will well and truly be in among the chickens. God knows what the Basques would do.

Quizas, El Zorro Y los polos-- Que lastima, El Zorro tiene hambre todo el dia y la noche tambiem. Adios, polos!!

http://wwwarmagunsblogspotcom.blogspot.com

Nifty.

When the Euro strengthens guns get more expensive here immediately. When it gets weaker it takes many months to years for guns to get less expensive.
At least that's what I've noticed.
Regards,
Jeff

http://www.larm.com/index.html

There are still makers who produce O/U guns, AyA and Keman are likely the best known. There are some other shops too, but they are lesser known. Larm ( http://www.larm.com/english-ou.html ) is an example.

IMHO the Basques have decided to remain in Spain; the years of terrorism and the bit of autonomy they have gotten changed their views. The Catalans I would call a 50/50 deal right now, although the loss of the Scottish Independence vote I think has poked a small hole in the Catalan separatists' balloon.
The Spanish Officer's oath requires him to fight to insure the Spanish State is both undivided and free. If the Catalans actually try to secede there will be hell to pay in Spain. IMHO
Dunno how that impacts shotgun prices, but that is how I see it today.

Re LARM. Hadnt heard of em, sniffed around, found a long exchange on CazayArmas where folks state unequivocally that LARM dont make any GUNS, but relied on Diego Godoy for almost everything. Either way, interesting.

I strongly suspect that was true at the time of the Caza thread. Can't be now, what with the the passing of Don Diego. He was a giant, and is greatly missed.

Clearly a candidate for the Unfortunate Acronym Hall-of-Fame, from 1971



As bad as the Chevy Nova. No va = it don't go.

I owned one of those once. The name fit.

Great input guys, this will really help!

Now my personal view.

I am still high on Spanish guns. Not just because I am selling them as I had many before I started selling them. I think they represent a great value even at the new prices. Did these prices put some folks out of market, yes, of course.

Many of you spoke of English guns. They loose money too. If you think you can buy a new Purdey and shoot it and get you money back, not so. Many years later, maybe.

Who ever started that you should not loose money on a gun is wrong. We accept this idea of loosing money on a car, appliance, furniture, or even when our stock goes down, but for some reason someone said that should not loose money on guns.
Guns are commodities, not paintings from old masters

The model 557 that I sold new in the early 90s was $2750, now I can sell a used one for more.

Many speak of English guns that are the way to go. Well, you can find lots of cheap boxlocks for a few thousend dollars. Not a sidelock 28 ga ( probably not a 20 sidelock either). Not even in an Italian sidelock.

Thanks so much for the input, they will value you suggestions.

John Boyd
Quality Arms
Houston, TX

Speaking of 20 gauge Spanish side locks, here are two guns made by Victor Sarasqueta and imported by Stoeger, on Gun Broker right now:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=445375368

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=446649231

Each has a starting bid under $800.

As an aside, there is more skilled hand labor in that Zephyr Sterlingworth (GB # 445375368) that there is in a current production AyA No.2.

And if you don’t like the stocks on the guns, at $800 each we have enough money left to have them restocked to our measure.

Sample gun. Bench made game ejector gun with 29" 1/4-3/4 choked barrels. Side lock with hidden lock release 100% hand engraved, top of rib cut with file by hand, stock finishing by hand with fine checkering including butt plate with oval grip. It listed for $2800 and sold months later for about $2000. That was fine quality VERTICAL game gun from highly regarded maker plus perfect balance and weight of about 7lb. Conclusion>>>>locally the market for fine Spanish guns does not exist.

Another example might be a gun made by Hijos de Crucelegui, named "Terrible". Cultural context strikes again.

When I opened this up I had to laugh out loud. It startled both my wife and my dog enough to have her ask me what I was doing. Drew is a treasure! Where does he find this stuff? POS shotgun indeed.

Thanks so much for all the great input, really appreciate it!

best to all

John
Quality Arms
Houston, TX

seems like bad mouthing low end guns is kinda unfair to the maker and suggests one is not aware of how business sometimes works.

specifically, the spanish and the belgians had/have a reputation for building cheap guns in job lots for wholesale customers. they also built/build expensive guns one at a time for retail customers. the differences are quality and price point.

the pos is a classic example. sloans sporting goods distributors, then located in nyc, as i recall, in the 60's, ordered a few thousand pos brand guns, in various gauges from a manufacturer in spain. sloans wanted to pay a certain low price per gun wholesale, so they could mark them up and sell erm at a higher, but still low price, via their catalog and distributor network. sloans got what they ordered. a low end gun at a low price.

i have had a few pos brand guns over the years. they are basic field grade hunting guns that carry well and shoot where you point them. they are not finely finished and are not made of the finest materials. they were never intended to be anything more than an inexpensive hunting gun. if you shoot erm a lot, you may experience some mechanical issues. its like a lot of other consumer products. you get what you pay for...

Sloans also handled V. Bernardellis at one time, so they weren't strictly a low end dealer.

sloans moved to ct in the seventies and published a paper catalog for many years. as i recall they sold a variety of hunting and fishing related merchandise, mostly wholesale, at different price points and perceived quality levels.

Very informative thread. Interesting to me because I would like to have a nice Pedro Arrizabalaga. If anyone has one for sale or can recommend a good source in Spain, email me at fla3006@yahoo.com.

have seen them on gunsinternational and gunsamerica from time to time.

I heard another 'Whopper" about Spanish guns at a show this weekend. I had a few Mid-Grade, light game gun sidelocks and boxlocks for sale. According to one guy, the Spanish usually didn't bother to clean out the filings after they engraved their guns, resulting in excessive wear of the internal parts. What a Moron. Add this to the "Soft Steel" myth, as well as the rumor that one of the two major barrel makers made inferior barrels...

Ask and ye shall receive:

http://www.gunsinternational.com/Arrizab...un_id=100464623

http://www.gunsinternational.com/Arrizab...un_id=100464615

Looks to me like a two gun set being sold as individual guns. Whether they are worth $6,500 each, or $13,000 the pair, is debatable. Cannot say I think much of the wood that's on them, but anytime we buy a gun that was custom made for somebody else we need to think upon having it restocked to our measure.

Yes sir, I saw those! Would be a shame to break up the pair. Stocks are a little long but could be shortened. Also wish one of the pair had longer barrels, tighter chokes. Very nice just the same!