I am still trying to figure out what happened opening day, Saturday before last, on the dove field. I mentioned the event briefly in another post, but can't seem to get it out of my mind.

I was shooting a new to me Verona 30" O/U .410 with two fixed full choke barrels. I had previously patterned the gun with 2 1/2" loads to look at the point of impact of both barrels, as it seemed to be stocked a bit high for me. The patterns at 30 yards were what I expected for full chokes, and regulation was good. So, I bought a few boxes of Remington 3" loads, 7 1/2s at 1135 fps and took it to the dove field that Saturday afternoon. I was working towards my limit of 15 pretty well when a dove came from right to left, almost a 90 degree crosser, well within my range. I swung and shot, and immediately noticed a small object in the air off to the right side of the dove, and watched as they both hit the ground. Wondering what it was, I never took my eyes off it until I reached the bird. To my amazement I was looking at the dove's head laying on the ground some 5 ft. from it's obviously lifeless decapitated body. Upon closer examination, the dove's body was not excessively shot up, nor it's head. They were just completely separated from each other. I went back to my stool, sat down and began to wonder what had just occurred. I got back up and stepped off the distance from my stand to the spot it fell, calculating a distance from gun to bird in the air of 23 yards. Understand, I clearly saw the dove's head leave it's body upon impact of the payload.

I am very blessed to have taken many thousands of doves in my lifetime, here and abroad, but have never witnessed anything like this. I have taken 39 doves with that little gun so far this season. None of them were mangled or damaged due to too tight a pattern or too close a distance, though some were taken at distances as close as 15 yards.

What do you think happened? Is it possible for a load to stay in a wad for that distance and impact like a slug, due to some aberration in the loading procedure? These were new shells, never exposed to water or any other weather extreme. It sounded and felt like every other load I have shot out of those four boxes I bought. The hull looked just like all the others with no difference detectable in the hull mouth.

What do my brothers in arms think?

Clueless In The Country, SRH

Bridged shot? I understand that is usually an issue with larger shot, but is it more likely to happen with 7.5s in a smaller bore like a .410, where that shot size is proportionally larger to the bore than in a 12 gauge?

Hope you ate it quick - otherwise, it might become Ichabod Dove, and will return headless to haunt you every dove season

I don't understand that term, as used in this application, Doverham. I am accustomed to shot bridging in the drop tube on my .410 loader, but could that cause it to stay together, in a clump, for 23 yards?

SRH

I once shot a quail and found the wad in the bird,do you think it's possible the wad itself hit the neck?
Mike

Several years ago, on a bobwhite hunt, my shooting student Joe Wood shot a quail and my first impression was that he had somehow put two wads into his reload. But almost immediately I realized he had shot the head off of that bob. It was a close shot, maybe fifteen yards. My best guess was and is that he had hit the head with the wad. But that seems an unlikely explanation for your dove since he was shot at thirty yards. For what its worth.

How would we know Stan? You are the only one on here that CAN shoot a dove in the neck at 23 yards in full flight. I'm just pleased when one falls at all...Geo

I recall reading about shot being "pressure welded" together into a clump while traveling down the barrel, presumably because they bridged across the bore, maybe due to some interference from the wad or crimp. One issue is that these clumps can travel well beyond the normal shotdrop zones and cause injuries.

Ruag


Perhaps it could have happened when the shells were made. I would think it would only take 2-3 fused 7.5s to decapitate a dove.

And a single pellet might be enough to do the job - at 25 yards, a 7.5 pellet shot at 1295 fps retains over 2 fpe. If properly placed (a task you are clearly capable of ), I would think that could be enough energy to do the trick. I shot a preserve cock pheasant in the neck a few years ago and nearly decapitated it.

I'll go with the simplest explanation, "Shit Happens".

I concur with the fusing theory.

Several years ago 'we' shot a guy hunting quail.

Two of us fired at the same going away bird.

There was a small wooded area at about a 45 degree angle from where the bird was.

The path to the bird was clear and open, and nobody was in sight when we fired.

Out from the woods, bleeding from the cheek and mildly annoyed, walks Jerry.

X-ray shows a figure 8 shaped piece of shot between his ear and eye, and he carries it to this day because the doctor fishing around in there for it exceeded Jerry's patience limit.

A freaky, and scary event.

So, shot does pressure weld and fly off in strange directions. I don't discount the shot clump theory in the case of the dove.

I have read that lead shot, when we used to use it on ducks, could fuse if the shell took on water and wet the shot to the point that it dried and oxidized. That does not explain this, however. Never heard of shot fusing together otherwise. I hope someone comes along with some good evidence of this. My poor brain is tired of trying to figure this out.

The dove, other than being headless, looked perfectly intact. Even the head was intact. I wish I had dressed it separately, but it got cleaned along with the other 308 that we took that afternoon.

SRH

Here is your answer - but you won't like it, as it calls into question the ballistic capabilities of the .410 ("ballistic abortion" is the technical term):

.410 3" Shells

That is a good read, Doverham. It does explain what evidently happened. It, however, does nothing to dissuade me from using the .410 on doves and quail. I have begun to use some 1/2 oz. loads in 2 1/2" shells on doves, and have been able to tell no difference in killing ability and range. This being with full chokes, mind you.

Thanks for the link. Very interesting. BTW, I do not believe a .410 wad in itself has the energy to decapitate a dove at 23 yards. It had to be some anomaly with the shot.

SRH

Stan,

I think everyone is looking in the wrong place. I think the shot cup was somehow held closed in place for the 23 yards, or close to it. Most likely by the shot cup petals being welded closed holding the load in place for most of the flight......i.e. manufacturing flaw of the shot cup.....

This could be a flaw in the shot cup as originally machine loaded by Remington.....unlikely that this happened after firing.....I've seen various brands of shot cups travel quite a distance without opening....freak, but it happens......


Best,

I think if the dove was okay before the shot, then later the head and body weren't all shot up, it could have been a single distorted 7 1/2 shot or a couple. Whatever hit,it most likely had to be small, and dove heads can pull off pretty easy even if they are not shot. Sounds pretty clean, can you remember if a big chunk was missing.

Stan, 23 yards isn't but 6 feet farther than the crossing point on a skeet field. There is also the possibility that the bird was closer than 23 yards when impacted, birds often falling a bit farther out than when hit. I'd think the wad as suggested by others would have adequate energy to separate the bird's head. Your comment that neither seemed particularly torn up would seem to validate that conclusion.

best, tw

What about the empty hull fronm the shot? Do you have the hull? Over several decades of skeet shooting I've seen quite a few .410-bore "zingers" where all that ejects from the gun is the brass head of the shell, while everything else goes out the barrel. Could it be you decapitated the bird with a "zinger"?

I once shot the head off a quail that was going over the top of me like high house 8. It was the wad that got him, meaning I was too far in front with my shot.....I guess.

Doug may be indeed correct, and I mentioned the possibility of something like that in my original post. The severed area absolutely did not look like a single pellet did it. Too much damage to the area that was impacted. I did not see the shot cup leaving the load in the air, as I often do with a 12 or 20 gauge, but then I never do see it when shooting a .410.

Dave, I mentioned earlier that the hull itself looked exactly like the rest of them. Nothing notable about the crimp area at all, perfectly normal.

I flatly do not believe the wad could have decapitated that dove by itself. They shed their energy extremely fast, and this bird was every bit of the 23 yards from me when the shot hit it. I accounted for all the variables that could have put the bird closer at firing, but it just did not happen like that. I am convinced that he whole load, or a major portion of it fused together, hit the bird. Not just a wad.

SRH

When I was 11 years old and hunting with a Stevens Single Shot .410, using 3" Peters 7 1/2 shells I had the same thing happen.

I only shoot 2-1/2" .410 loads on doves (when I'm shooting a .410), but last season I fired a 1/2oz load of 8's at a dove flying straight away at about 35 yards (paced off in sand dunes), and the bird was destroyed. The body was completely gone and all that I could find to pick up was the head and the crop. I was on top of a dune and the dove was flying at about the same height I was, so the whole shot string apparently went right up his backside. Shell was either a Win AA or an Estate Target. I was surprised that the 1/2oz payload was that tight at that distance, even with a full choke (Browning Invector). Shot the same gun and shells on the opener this year and one of the guys remarked about how "that .410" was hammering Euros at 40 yards. I have not patterned it because it generally works so well, but now maybe I will.

Consider that it doesn't take many pieces of shot to decapitate a dove and that patterns are highly variable. I think you had the sorta "reverse hole" in your pattern and it happened to occur on the dove's neck. Unlucky dove. A rare event, but nothing outside the limits of normal probability. I doubt there was any other unusual happening within the shot.

DDA

Stan,
In his book The Modern Shotgun, Volume 3 pages, 74-77 Burrard reviews the condition that you experience on the dove field ,under the heading, "Balling".Burrard reviews the reasons for this problem. He gives details of a serious accident that occurred when a passer by was hit by a cluster of balled 6 shot at a distance of 133 yards. The result was a serious facial injury. The same shot killed the original quarry a pheasant!
Several years ago whilst Woodcock hunting I experienced a freak occurrence. I shot at a rising woodcock at approx. 25 yards ,The bird disintegrated; with the wings floating to earth like falling leaves! At that time I was shooting reloads of 7 1/2 shot in Remington shells with plastic wads. The bore of the barrel was cylinder. Clearly the wad had not stripped on discharge hence the result observed.

This happened to me opening day here in Indiana. 30" Cylinder choke 14ga shooting recently purchased factory 16ga 1oz #6 shot. It wasn't a particularly close shot, ~25 yds give or take. To me, this would prove that shot alone could decapitate a dove. Had this been 1/2" further back on the bird I feel pretty confident that it would have been two separate pieces hitting the ground.

I once killed and cleaned a ruffed grouse that my dog put up. The thing was in a Kamikaze mode, and I shot when it was about 10-15 yds away--cloud of feathers, and thought nothing left, probably. Picked up the bird, and there was only the breast, head and wings, the guts and tail was gone! One pellet in the breast, cylinder barrel, 12ga.

I had a similar thing happen 2x, both on pheasants.

The first time, I had a bird get up about 10 yd away and I was very quick on the shot. It folded with some odd feathers floating down. On picking it up, I noted the whole 1 1/4 oz of #4 from the modified barrel of my 12ga had hit it squarely in the vent and it was totally cleaned out. No pellets anywhere else in the bird.

The second time, another pheasant got up close and I hit it between 10 and 15 yd away with 1 oz of #6 from the modified barrel of my 16ga. It had most of the neck gone with only the trachea holding the head on. One pellet stuck in the skin of the back where someone using #5 plated had wounded it.

Happens.

OK, as Russ was prone to say, "I could be mistaken" or in my own vernacular, "I could be wrong."

I'm aware of a too quickly & closely shot pheasant two years ago that was simply eviscerated as Dave describes & I've also seen dove disappeared mid air w/no more then the wings wafting down toward the ground afterwards. No prolly about those shots; it was more than the wad that hit them.

That's why I like tight chokes in my 12 bore game guns- "You've about had all the thrills in wingshooting when you see your quarry, well centered, crumple in the air and drop earthward" T. N. Buckingham "The Dove"--

So I wonder how often it is that when we miss those close shots, and are left to say "WTF?," it is actually because the wad failed to open, as evidenced by these stories of eviscerated birds? Maybe it is a small number, but likely more than we might otherwise expect. I am sure the ammo makers won't share any information they have on the percentage of plastic wads that fail to open. I guess that is one advantage of fiber wads.

So now I have a new story for when I miss the close ones - "Damn wad didn't open up!"

Quick story. Several years ago I was duck hunting with a buddy with my Golden Abby. In came a mallard flying. My buddy pulled up using hevi-shot and made a passing shot as the duck was flying directly over us. Distance maybe 15 yards. Just as he fired the duck flew above the tree canopy and we lost sight. Heard the thud behind us and my Golden was gone. Came back with the duck in its mouth with a missing head and brought it to my hand. Blood was still spewing out as she brought it to hand. After I took the bird from her mouth she took off again. 30 seconds later she returned with the ducks head in her mouth. She was one amazing retriever. Miss her every day as she passed about 2 months ago at the age of 14.

Learned when I was about 12 or 13 not to shoot game too close with a shotgun. Rabbit ears with a strip of skin and a tail just don't make a good meal and my dad was quick to correct me for it. Just a big waste of good food. Some shot is imbedded in the wads frequently. Such heavy wads can do considerable damage. Wads with or without imbedded shot generally don't fly to point of aim so a dove struck with just a wad does not mean there was balled shot. Read about a couple guys who mistakenly loaded shotgun slug loads and hit birds that way. As I recall they were carrying the slug loads because they were in grizzly country.

Once, while shooting 16 yard trap with #8's; I shot a target & while hitting it soundly, a bird was flying off to the right some distance, probably 12 yards away from the target. The bird dropped stone dead. Only thing the squad could figure out was a pellet had bounced off the target.
Sometimes, odd things happen.
Sam Ogle, Lincoln, NE

Sometimes it just takes a well placed...
wire fence

Sounds like this kind of thing isn't as rare as I thought, though not common. After considering all the comments, and rethinking the event many times, I am going with the theory that the shot cup stayed with the load, creating a slug effect. I have pretty much discounted the possibility that it was just a "reverse hole", as Don put it, or a hot spot in the pattern. The more I recall the appearance of the dove, the more clearly I remember the neck area being just .......... gone. Doves have some neck, and this one had very little left. This also takes away the possibility of it being done by two or three shot stuck together. It looked exactly like I would picture it if the entire shot load, still encased in the shot cup, struck the neck area directly.

Thanks for the comments, SRH

Sounds like this kind of thing isn't as rare as I thought, though not common. After considering all the comments, and rethinking the event many times, I am going with the theory that the shot cup stayed with the load, creating a slug effect. I have pretty much discounted the possibility that it was just a "reverse hole", as Don put it, or a hot spot in the pattern. The more I recall the appearance of the dove, the more clearly I remember the neck area being just .......... gone. Doves have some neck, and this one had very little left. This also takes away the possibility of it being done by two or three shot stuck together. It looked exactly like I would picture it if the entire shot load, still encased in the shot cup, struck the neck area directly.

Thanks for the comments, SRH

Someone had posted, some time ago, images from their quail hunt in which they captured one of the party centering a bobwhite in the pattern, making an impressive puff of feathers. A friend did that a year or two ago with a ruffed grouse. He was very quick and excited - opening day, IIRC - and centered the bird in his pattern at not-very-far.

Not much left to eat in either case.