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Posted By: Geo. Newbern BRNO/ maybe FEG Boxlock - 09/11/14 03:55 PM
I've owned and shot BRNO ZP sidelocks in 16ga and 12ga, but had never run into their boxlock version. The boxlock below is ambitiously named the "Monte Carlo Imperial" model. I bought it on Gunbroker, but don't have it in hand yet. It looks about the same quality as the ZP sidelocks I've owned and is likely contemporaneously made, ie the '60's. Anyone have any info on these guns?...Geo





Posted By: gunsaholic Re: BRNO Boxlock - 09/11/14 04:18 PM
As far as I know, the Monte Carlo is not a Brno. It is made in Hungary by Fegyvergyar. At least anyone I have seen was. I have had about 5 Fegs now and they all looked like the gun pictured. They are another of those "sleeper guns". They feature dovetailed chopper lump barrels, cocking indicators, chrome lined bores, and most have an ejector mechanism that can be removed with the push of a button to make it an extractor gun. Here in Canada they can be had for between $250.00 to $500.00 for one in excellent condition. There should be a 2 digit date code on the barrel flats. Great value for the money.
Posted By: Geo. Newbern Re: BRNO Boxlock - 09/11/14 04:56 PM
Thanks Guns, the seller listed it as a BRNO. It does have the cocking indicators on the side. Don't know about ejectors. We'll see...Geo
Posted By: James M Re: BRNO Boxlock - 09/11/14 05:08 PM
Feg may just be one of the most underrated firearms manufactures in the world. I have owned and shot several different handguns by this manufacturer and they all have functioned very well. The quality designed and built into these guns IMO put many better known manufacturers to shame. I've had no experience with their shotguns but expect the results would be similiar.
N.B: My summer CC handgun is a Feg in 9MM Makarov. It is totally reliable and I would stake my life on it. It cost a fraction of what a similiar handgun would cost from a better known manufacturer.
Jim
Posted By: Kyrie Re: BRNO Boxlock - 09/11/14 07:22 PM
Originally Posted By: gunsaholic
As far as I know, the Monte Carlo is not a Brno. It is made in Hungary by Fegyvergyar. At least anyone I have seen was. I have had about 5 Fegs now and they all looked like the gun pictured. They are another of those "sleeper guns". They feature dovetailed chopper lump barrels, cocking indicators, chrome lined bores, and most have an ejector mechanism that can be removed with the push of a button to make it an extractor gun. Here in Canada they can be had for between $250.00 to $500.00 for one in excellent condition. There should be a 2 digit date code on the barrel flats. Great value for the money.


Oh, yes:







A lot of gun for the money.
Posted By: ellenbr Re: BRNO Boxlock - 09/11/14 07:43 PM
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=267191&page=1


"Rudolf Frommer was born in Budapest on August 4th, 1868 and a source or 2 gives him being an engineer before joining Femaru Fegyver es Gepgyar in 1896. Other sources, http://sunblest.net/gun/Bio.htm , give he was a banker and was drawn to Femaru Fegyver es Gepgyar(prior name in 1896) to rectify their finanical troubles and in 1898 became obsessed with weapons. He may not have been a master but it would have been after his employment at Femaru Fegyver es Gepgyar and for now I don’t know where his walk-about took him, or if he was a journeyman. So with this additional info I have less faith in the fact that Rudolph Frommer was a scattergun designer but the probability still exists. He had some sort of disease in his 60s and that was the reason for his departure/retirement from Femaru Fegyver es Gepgyar in 1935. Shortly thereafter on September 1st, 1936 he expired in Budapest. From afar, and about 100 years later, it is difficult to determine just what part Rudolf Frommer played as a designer, practical product manufacture and supervisor at Femaru Fegyver es Gepgyar. Several other masterful minds were involved in theory as well as application and Karel Krnka was one of them. Karel Krnka(April 6th, 1858 – Feb. 25th, 1926 in Prague) was more of a theorist in gun design as well as writer but may have played a part, or imported the technology, as he was an employee of Zbrojovka Praga and then Ceskoslovenska Zbrojovka. So I know he came in contact with the Holek boys(Emanuel-master 1920/1921/1922???, Frantisek-master 1919??, Vaclav Holek was an apprentice in Pisek and then on to Mulacz in Vienna in 1905 and should have been a master by 1909/1910. He traveled to Nowonty of Prague in 1910, possibly as a master, to streamline the mechanized production of H&H sidelock scatterguns) and I guess Krnka may have taken some pointers from the boys Holek, specifically Vaclav, although I’m not positive who was the father of the ZP series but suspect Vaclav Holek. Karel Krnka apprenticed to his father, Sylvestr Krnka, who had been an apprentice to the Viennese gunamker Nowtony in the 1840s. I don’t know if his walk-about took him outside of the Austro-Hungarian empire but guess him to have been a master by 1881/1882. So in my mind, and for now, you have a supervisor, theorist and boys Holek all who may have contributed to the Femaru Fegyver es Gepgyar scattergun."

Let's see the marks.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Geo. Newbern Re: BRNO Boxlock - 09/11/14 08:01 PM
Thanks Raimey for the history with the Brno connection. Even without the gun in hand I can see that there is a similarity in style and finish between this one and the ZPs I owned. I'll take a pic of the marks when I get it.

How the heck do you pronounce the name "Fegyvergyar". I think I'm stickin' with Feg...Geo

I can't wait to see whether this one has that removable ejector gizmo Kyrie posted the picture of!
Posted By: gunsaholic Re: BRNO Boxlock - 09/11/14 08:16 PM
Aside from the Fegs I have owned (still have one), I also have 3 Brno sidelocks. While both are very good value for the money, I give the edge in quality and finish to the Brno sidelock. Mind you I had one Feg Continental with beavertail forearm (most are splinter), high gloss finish with fancier wood, and 3" chambers. It was a beautiful gun in as new condition. I'm still kicking myself in the a_ _ for selling it in a "weak moment".
Posted By: Kyrie Re: BRNO Boxlock - 09/11/14 08:38 PM
It would be quite a challenge to find a lock work that was more bare bones than on the Brno:



Posted By: ellenbr Re: BRNO Boxlock - 09/11/14 11:16 PM
I hope a linguist will correct me, but it looks to be:

feg-ver-yar

Or just say Armory or FEG.

Anyone have an image of the lock of FN's simple sidelock at their finger tips?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: BRNO Boxlock - 09/12/14 12:27 AM

Brno


FN

I would have thought the pin configuration to be similar but alas not.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Geo. Newbern Re: BRNO/FEG Boxlock - 09/19/14 06:47 PM
I picked the gun up this morning. It is a Feg of course instead of a Brno, although the maker's name appears nowhere on the visible part of the gun upon dis-assembly. The only name on it is Monte Carlo Imperial on both sides of the frame. It still has the removable ejector box which is pretty nifty.

It is dated 62. Other marks on the barrel flats include 17.6 and 18 which I presume are either barrel weights or bore diameters? It is stamped "NO BULLET" which denotes choke I'd guess, and "SMOKELESS POWDER". There is a 12 over 70 inside a diamond showing gauge and chamber length. The barrel flats also have the numbers 1605 and 23526 on the left and right respectively.

I was surprised at the lack of country origin, but the barrel flats do show the Hungarian "helmet with an I inside it" proof mark.There are no marks on the action flats other than the serial number and "smokeless powder".

Any idea what the bolsters under the fences are for? There are screws on the action flat which appear to go into the bolsters...Geo



Posted By: 2-piper Re: BRNO/FEG Boxlock - 09/19/14 08:39 PM
18mm converts to .709" & 17.6mm converts to .693". While it is customary to find the bore diameter stamped on the bbls or flats these sure sound as if they could very well be denoting choke size. based on the "Standard" 12 ga size of .729" (18.5mm) this would give constrictions of .020" right & .036" Left. If the bores are non-standard of course actual constrictions would vary accordingly.
Posted By: Geo. Newbern Re: BRNO/FEG Boxlock - 09/19/14 08:43 PM
Thanks Miller, I can never figure out the math. They do sound like chokes don't they...Geo
Posted By: Geo. Newbern Re: BRNO/FEG Boxlock - 09/20/14 03:13 AM
2-piper cleared up the choke numbers. What are the other two numbers? And what about the bolsters; style or function?....Geo
Posted By: ellenbr Re: BRNO/FEG Boxlock - 09/20/14 12:34 PM
It must have been for export with the No Bullet, which denotes the exclusion of ball ammo not slug.

Not for Ball
Non Pour Balle
Nem Golyonak
Jen Pro Broky
Nicht Für Kugel

Also the FN stamp for Fust Nelkuli has been replaced by the Smokeless term, possibly also noting export

Into on the Hungarian proof facility is sketchy at best. But what they did try to convey thru marks was:

Nem Golyonak - Not for Ball noting constriction

Proof number / year

Tubeset weight in grams

Bore diameter measurement taken between 15 - 22 cm from breech

These should always be present & it would seem that there are slight variation depending on the time period & reproof or not. Also having different constriction in each tube may produce a variation.



Red encircled - Nominal bore data - measure right tube at muzzle to compare vs. 18mm

Green encircled - Constriction measurement

Blue encircled - weight of tubeset

Yellow encircled - sequential proof number for the year over year

I'd say the circular or radius of metal was left for side frame reinforcement and may overcome some internal removal of metal. Now the screw, I'm assuming you are referring to the one adjacent to the cocking or loaded indicator?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse


Posted By: ellenbr Re: BRNO/FEG Boxlock - 09/20/14 12:43 PM
For some reason, the position of the red encircled 18 being on the underside of the right tube, is most times a whole number. I'm curious for the case of a whole number if the tube is the same diameter for its length.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Geo. Newbern Re: BRNO/FEG Boxlock - 09/20/14 02:54 PM
I shot a blue winged teal with it this morning. Everything else this morning was woodies which are not yet in season. Killed him on the 2nd shot pretty far out so at least I know both barrels work and that there is some pretty good choke in the left barrel.

Raimey, are you saying that the red circled number 18 is not a choke designation, but the barrel diameter which would be .709"? That is mighty tight for a 12ga isn't it?

I don't have anything to measure with but a drop in choke gauge which presumes a .729 nominal barrel diameter. It shows chokes of Mod and Full. I know both barrels have choke because I can feel it when I push a cleaning patch through them...Geo
Posted By: ellenbr Re: BRNO/FEG Boxlock - 09/20/14 03:29 PM
Not sure. Very odd that the position place holder is an integer number? I could be choke but the jury is still out. Yeah I see that 18.5 is more inline with the 0.729" number & would make it 8 thou smaller. What about the weight of the tubeset?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Geo. Newbern Re: BRNO/FEG Boxlock - 09/21/14 01:38 AM
Haven't weighed the tube-set Raimey(we gave the baby scale away years ago), but the barrels are chrome lined and don't appear to have been honed or the chokes messed with. I'm pretty sure they are as new..Geo
Posted By: ellenbr Re: BRNO/FEG Boxlock - 09/21/14 03:08 PM
Well, it just about has to be constriction measured at the muzzle. Odd though that most times it is a integer with no decimal.



Interesting 1973 version from an above thread and the chambers are 76mm. This one wears the post April 1971 Hungarian proof marks as well as a slightly different arrangement.


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Kyrie Re: BRNO/FEG Boxlock - 09/21/14 05:14 PM
A couple more examples, from guns I've owned:



Posted By: ellenbr Re: BRNO/FEG Boxlock - 09/21/14 11:54 PM
I'm curious how those 76mm chambers performed. The 1938(?) are proper with the FN surmounted by the Sankt Stephen's crest. Notice too that in the 1938 stampings the decimal is high like an apostrophe and not low. I'd say that to be a hold over from the Austrian-Hungarian originals and continued till the 1971 rules change. Does any know if the Germans had control of the Hungarian proof facility like the Bohemian ones?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: gunsaholic Re: BRNO/FEG Boxlock - 09/22/14 12:39 AM
Originally Posted By: Geo. Newbern

I don't have anything to measure with but a drop in choke gauge which presumes a .729 nominal barrel diameter. It shows chokes of Mod and Full. I know both barrels have choke because I can feel it when I push a cleaning patch through them...Geo


The designations are for choke. All the Fegs I ownned were choked modified and full.
Posted By: Geo. Newbern Re: BRNO/FEG Boxlock - 09/22/14 01:19 AM
I started this thread with a mistaken identity of a gun-make I'd never even heard of. I bought it just because it looked like a good gun for the money even if it didn't turn out to be what I, or the seller either, thought it was.

Turns out that not only can I shoot it pretty well, but thanks to the generosity of the board members here I now a great deal about Hungarian FEGs. If you run into one buy it just for the removable ejector box; if you take the box out it changes the balance from a duck gun to an upland gun. Thank all of you!...Geo
Posted By: gunsaholic Re: BRNO/FEG Boxlock - 09/22/14 02:27 AM
My last Feg which I picked up about a month ago didn't stay in my possession long. My dad took a liking to it so it's now in his possession. He had the chokes opened up to modified and improved cylinder. He had it out for ducks on the weekend and he even managed to hit a few. Not too bad for 86 years old.
Posted By: rrrgcy Re: BRNO/FEG Boxlock - 09/24/14 04:33 AM
Fegyver és Gépgyár (FEG) - firearms and machine factory - pronounced Feg-yvare Aysh Gape-dyarr. Gyar means factory.

Note: Hungarian, I was proudly taught by my folks, is considered a very pretty language for no words or sounds cause one to ever stick the tip of their tongue out from their teeth or lips.

Okay, everybody at once >

Feg-yvare (slight touch of a "y" between Feg and vare, so it almost sounds like "fedya" saying it quickly, and use a Very slight single rolled "r" ("vare" rhyming with "air" and to add a slight single roll the "r")

Ay-sh (long "A", like as in "Ape" or "A-ok")

Gape-dyarr ("dyar" rhymes with car in a Boston-like accent, and again, do the most ever slight almost silently singly rolled "r" at the end).
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