Can anyone point me to an authority on the correct checkering lip for a Grade 5 LCS? If not, perhaps someone can tell me what an appropriate lpi would be.

Thank you,

JDG

Jay,
I just measured mine, an '01 5E 12 ga. As best I can tell it's at least 36 LPI, and may be 40. Really difficult to measure !

TPI gauge is the easiest way to measure checkering that I know of.

Kinda' similar, my '29 Crown is 24 lpi.

36 lpi is pretty crazy - that's like stipling!

I measured across the wrist-- three times. It's the finest checkering I've ever seen, and original. Remember, pre-'13 Smiths displayed exceptional workmanship.

Primarily interested in knowing what would be period and grade correct. I was thinking 22-24 but it sounds like even that would be too course.

Thanks,

JDG

Wow! My Grade 5 is circa 1904-05 so we are talking the same vintage. Can you post some photos?

Thanks

Jay,
Glad you reminded me---I've failed to take pics of the gun, but will do first thing in the morning. Send me your email address and I'll send them to you. BTW, this gun has the last known horizontally-serrated triggers recorded in the records.
Dick Miller

Yes, you are right Ithaca5E, there is an awful lot of b.s. on this thread.

24-26 LPI Grade 5 standard as per Houchins L.C. Smith book and the ones I have worked on, pre or post 1913. Extra lines at extra cost, just like today...but 32 LPI shows as the max that the hardest Turkish Circassian wood would hold and Turkish Circassian was not standard on the Grade 5 gun.





24-26 LPI L.C. No. 5


24-26 LPI L.C. No. 5

It is hard to count without a gauge, but my 5E did have 24 LPI or so.

I can easily see miscounting it without a gauge

PA 24,
I have sent pics of the checkering to Jay. Perhaps he will post same for your expert opinion, as I don't have a gauge.
An observation--- you seem to have a vast knowledge of the subject of Smiths, apparently obtained from studying Brophy and Houchin's books. This may come as a revelation to you, but BOTH publications contain a number of errors and many have been noted by those of us who concentrate on Smiths. Futher, Grade 5's were made to order-- for example, the serrated triggers on my gun. Finally, those of us who collect Smiths have a saying--- "Never say never"
I don't appreciate your BS comment---that was uncalled-for when I was trying to help another poster.
Dick Miller

So let's see here Dick Miller a.k.a. Laxcoach:

The Books are Wrong, Professional Checkering folks with over 30 years experience are wrong, My 50 years gun smithing experience is wrong and everybodys thread pitch gauges are wrong with respect to L.C. Smith Grade 5 Guns........BUT you are right...........really......

BTW, any publication the size and detail of Houchins book, has errors....The Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson is about the same size and has about the same number of errors, so what. The volumes of information they offer in one book is more than worthwhile, maybe you should read one sometime.

So then as you are "trying to help" a poster you value your "guessing" and "winging it" more than facts and information in dedicated publications and general knowledge on a given topic.......Is this how "those of us who collect Smiths" that you mention, establish information and "help" others........?......I doubt it.....

Since you are so knowledgeable, post the pictures of your Grade 5 L.C. Smith right here on this thread, if you know how, and let "the board" decide how many Lines Per Inch your gun "actually has", you say 36 or 40 LPI.......b.s.......don't depend on "someone else" to post your pictures.....

Good Luck

The person who is most important in this thread, Jay Gardner, has received the pics and is most appreciative. Your "credentials" mean nothing to me and, apparently, a lot of other people who have sent me PMs about your general attitude.
End of subject.

I don't own anything as fine as a Grade 5, but both Syracuse L.C. Smith Quality F hammergun and Quality 2 hammerless, which were the lowest grades had 22-24 lpi, so I have to agree with what Dick has said. These were special order guns, and you could get what you wanted on them.
Dick was also right about both books, there are vast mistakes in them, but without these there was no foundation to go on and compare.

Laxcoach:

According to all the PM's I received on you and your posting here, the consensus summary is that you are not too bright and you are in perfect company with your cronies..... As they say "birds of a feather fly together"......

Let's see those pics. Close up and with a decent ruler on top of the checkering. I not only want to see this but I also would like to count the lines.

Gentlemen, please. I ask a relatively straight forward question and I see no reason to attack each other. Laxcoach was kind enough to send me photos of his beautiful Grade 5, which is almost identical to the one PA24 posted. Unfortunately Dick does not have a gauge so he sent a photo with a tape measure laying across the grip. How about we count and see if we can all agree on the same number.

Its rather hard to get an accurate count from a picture like this especially when the tape is not perpendicular to either set of lines. My best guess from this pic is it is in the range of 28 LPI.

I enlarged the photo, then counted the lines and I came up with 24, on the nose.

The middle picture with the tape is too dark to count lines so I tried to visualize the tape as being on the gun in the top pic. I came up with 26 but I'll go with you 2-piper on 28 lines per inch. These guys need a thread guage to accurately measure the checkering. It is far from the 40 lines per inch someone stated in a previous post. 40 lines per inch would mean that there is only .025 of an inch between lines.

No, it's definitely 24. No question in my mind. I have my answer.

Thank you,

JDG

I came up with 24 (as Jay did) by tracking a line away to the right, counting diamonds on the diagonal, then tracking another line to the right again to resume counting diamonds diagonally. Pretty darn sure it's 24.

Thanks for posting Jay....

The ruler should have been a metal machinists scale/ruler in 64ths by 1" (scale 4) increments and laid in line/parallel with the checkering rows.

From these pictures I would say the LPI is 24/26. Very far from the 36 or 40 LPI mentioned on page one - which probably doesn't exist on any gun - - - 24/26 LPI puts this gun in line with all the published data for this grade of L.C. Smith.... Note the chart I posted on page one of this thread for L.C. Smith factory checkering LPI....

I had a high grade Sauer years ago with the finest checkering on a gun I have ever owned. It was 32 lpi on the butt and 28 on the fore end. The 32 was verified with a machinist ruler by a gunsmith that was showing me how to measure checkering. the wood was nice but not over the top like some exhibition stocks I have seen. The pattern was lovely and the gun was superb. One of the few guns I have sold that I wished I never let out of my sight. It was as nice as any Daily double of the same era. But family and bills had to be taken care of first so it went to a fellow in NJ. He is now dead, my gun is in some collectors safe and the money it brought is long spent. Sad ending for such a nice gun. Perhaps I come across it again.

I do not see where the mat'l the scale is made of makes any difference. it should not be placed parallel to anything. It should lay perpendicular to one direction of the checkering. I did at one point in my life have an old .41 rimfire Swiss Vetterli rifle which had a coarse square checkering. In this case you would have laid the scale perpendicular to one line of the checkering & it would have been parallel to the other. You measure on the perpendicular though & with a Diamond pattern you're not parallel to either set of rows.

I just measured the checkering on this Schutzen rifle in my collection. I believe it has the smallest checkering on any firearm I own and it came out as 26 per inch. This checkering IMO is so fine it's not very useful in providing a good gripping surface. I frankly can't even imagine the purpose of checkering over 30 per inch.
Jim

I agree about 32 being too fine. It was explained to me that the reason for the coarser fore end checkering was to make it better for gripping. Sadly I never shot the Sauer very much, still in my early auto/pump and magnum phase of youth. I have seen very fine checkering on side panels right behind the breech face but that is just decorative so too fine is no problem.

To me, 24-lpi is about the cutoff between something practical and something that is not. I think the checkering on Dicks Grade 5 is very elegant (especially with that pattern) and is befitting a gun of that age and grade. Unfortunately the fellow who did my checkering did so with 16-lpi, which is not bad until you see it next to an original.

Thanks again to all who posted.

JDG

The first gun with Turkish wood I had recheckered was done at 28 lines per inch because I could - the wood took it well. The checkering is too small for a good grip, but it sure is pretty! Now I stick to 24 lines per inch for most checkering. On simple field guns I go to 20 or 22 lip as it looks more appropriate for the grade of gun and provides excellent grip, as it is supposed to.
Regards,
Jeff