AYA 4/53 boxlock (actually NECG 4/25) 15" LOP to checkered butt

Uggie grade 5 round action SLE 14 1/2" LOP will need a pad

This will be my one and only side by side. Hunting 20 days a year and sporting clays maybe 500 targets a year.

I would appreciate your opinions to help me decide.
CHAZ

Hi, if I had to pick between the two, it would be the Uggie. A classier gun, nice engraving, decent wood and IMO a better feel. Just my opinion mind you. True a BLE is simpler, but there is something special about a Round Body SLE. I wouldn't worry about the quality factor, they are about the same.

There are plenty other choices, but you narrowed down what you want, so we should stick to your choices.

Good Luck!

Greg

Easy. AyA.

Quality factor IS important, and AyA is way out in front.

Simple, nice looking boxlock gun.

It will require only a little oil, and lots of shells.

$4K for an AYA boxlock? You can get a lot of nicer things on the market for that money, new and used. If it is important, you are unlikely to get even half your money back if you decide to sell it. If you want a box lock, get a Uggi and save half your money, or look at the new Fausti's. If you want reliable, get a used BSS or SKB, or look at the NEW SKB's.

I have no experience with either brand, but I have to agree with danross..4 grand could get you into something better.. a pretty nice older English.German or Belgian BL..which I think would be a far nicer gun to own.
Just wondering if the OP had thought about these options, is all.
cheers, & good luck with your choice Sir
franc

I would buy the right used gun, but I haven't found it yet. If I don't end up getting anything before then I will be shopping the Great Northeastern at Hausmann's.

CHAZ

An Uggie for half the money is half the gun. That's why it's half the money.

Markets don't lie.

AyA's do well in the used market, they are way easier to sell than a Ugartechea. That name comes with a blank stare, while the AyA name at least results in a nod of the head.

This is from John Boyd's ad on this site. (Quality Arms).

A very tidy little gun, at a fair price. New.

The question is if was MY $4k, and this is where it would go.



AYA #453 - 20 ga. 28" ic/mod. This is one of the really nice upland guns made by one of the most respected makers' in Spain today. This elegant , small frame gun has a case colored receiver with a light engraving. A traditional game gun with double triggers, straight stock and a splinter forearm. This gun was ordered with select grade wood, with the AYA best hand rubbed oil finish. Also on this nice lightweight gun there is a stock oval in the butt stock where you can custom engrave your initials if you wish. These are beautifully custom built guns that are of exceptional quality! New. (1 1/2 x 2 3/8 x 15 * 6 lb.)
picture#1 | picture#2 | picture#3 | picture #4
Gun # KK-16-09
$3,695

I was looking at 12s but I revisit that ad often, the wood is beautiful. I might not need all that shot?
I am trying to sell an older sle Uggie so I know about resale. That is why I am thinking about trying to trade at Lion Country thinking I would get my best trade value at an Uggie dealer.
Chaz

Gun for gun, dollar for dollar, the Uggie is equivalent to the AyA, at least in the guns I have seen and handled. I have Uggies, my buddy has AyAs. I prefer the Uggies, he prefers guns with a big name. They are both nice guns, but the Uggie gives a bit more bang for the buck.

Actually markets do lie when it comes to the question of quality. Quality has to do with how well something was made, not the price it commands or the speed with which it will be sold on the used market. Those issues are more greatly affected by brand name value and/or collectibility in our little corner of the world.

For real world examples we just have to look at the long term realized auction price valuation tables created by Rocketman here to help with assessing the likely value (selling price) of English and Continental guns. The biggest component of current value is Brand Name. For double guns Branding includes both the actual maker as well as his location (London, Birmingham, Liege, St. Etienne etc)

And like it or not, Eibar.

I've also had both Aya and Ugartechea.

They are apple/orange in my experience, but I'm just one data point.

Can't believe the claim that an AYA is significantly better than a Uggi because "markets don't lie". In my book the Uggi is a better gun and certainly a better gun for the money. Yes, they sell for less, new and used, but I find them to be as well made, or better, than the AYA and to carry, balance, and shoot as well. What justifies the AYA's higher price? Between the two guns posited, I'd jump on the Uggi side lock. Just a nicer gun. But I would also shop the used market.

Why have a copy of a British gun when you could have a British gun?

$4K will buy a nice one in 12GA.

Didn't mean to exclude Eibar. That's why I put in an "etc". And I have no opinion on either the AYA or the Uggie, having never shot either. Or any Spanish gun for that matter.

My point was only about the separation between quality and price on the used market. Selling prices are significantly driven by factors in addition to quality.

You should be able to pick up W&S Model 700 for well below $4k - here is a sub-7 lb gun with 30" barrels, good chokes and stock dimensions:
Model 700
I owned one and the only reason I don't still have it is that I am a dummy.

Sauer boxlocks are another excellent value if you find one in good condition. This one is overpriced, but you get the idea:
Sauer

Since you asked, for my money, in that price range, I would buy a vintage Brit or German boxlock, Terry Wieland notwithstanding.

Hoof - PM sent, too.

I second Doverham's thoughts on the W&S 700.

You should be able to find a like new 12 ga W&S 700 for $2700 to $3500 & that provides some money left over for stock bending, recoil pad for LOP adjustment & adjustment of the chokes if needed.

I think they are one of the few really good buys out there in used guns & I wish I would have discovered them earlier in life as it would have saved me $$$.

If I were 5'10" my choices would be far greater. I have gotten so sick of 1 1/2" pads that weigh half a pound that I am determined to find a long stock.

CHAZ

There is a reasonably good W & S model 700 for sale near me for $1600 Cdn. Only problem is the hassle of getting it across the border.

I don't know what your LOP requirements are but most uncut W&S 700 double trigger gun are around 14 3/4" LOP to a checkered or grooved butt & the butts have not been drilled & plugged for balancing. This means you can easily go to 15 5/8" with a 1" pad & you can hollow out the butt to compensate for the weight of the pad to get the gun to balance properly.

I was fit at 14 7/8" but for a pistol grip. I would like to have 15" over a checkered (or grooved) butt.

This is an aside (highjacking my own thread) but I don't understand why more guns aren't built with longer stocks? Anyone buying a gun with a long stock can have it shortened and the butt checkered, but someone who needs a long stock can't "put it back on."

It just seems to me that someone doing decent volume on a certain gun (like Lion Country supply Uggies) could buy it with a long stock and high dimensions and then have it shortened and bent as needed and sell it as a "custom fit" gun almost immediately. I would think if you built a relationship with a gunsmith you could get a stock shortened and bent for a (comparatively) minimal upcharge. Wait time would be weeks instead of months.

CHAZ

Again OT, but what I find even more frustrating is all the nice guns out there that have been shortened to 14" or less LOP & over a 1" recoil pad.

When that is done you can't even fit it to a normal sized person by adding a pad. There must have been a whole lot of short armed, recoil sensitive midgets with poor gun mounts that were interested in shotguns at some time in the past.

My Uggie SLE 20 came with 30" barrels and 15" LOP over a checkered butt. Too long for me, but I'm not selling it.

At least some of the CSMC RBLs had the option for 14-3/4" LOP over a hard plate. Worth considering.

I found a 15 inch RBL with a straight stock, but no RBL ever sold for the "base model" price as far as I have seen.
CHAZ

If it were my money?

I wouldn't spend $4,000 on a Lion Country Grade V. That's just a Ugartechea model 110 being sold under a retailer's name. If I wanted a Spanish side lock and had 4K to spend there are better values than the Ugartechea 110.


I also wouldn't spend $4,000 on a box lock, regardless of maker. That's about ten times what a nice, used, 12 gauge Spanish box lock can be had for.

If you don't care whether the gun you buy is a side lock or a box lock, and want a straight stocked 12 gauge SxS with a long stock, and are willing to spend up to $4,000, I have a suggestion for you.

Buy a nice used Spanish box lock off Gun Broker for under $1,000. Spend another $1000 on a spectacular stock blank. And then spend another $1000 - $2000 to have used 12 gauge restocked to your measure using the spectacular stock blank.

I thought about restocking the one I have now but it felt like throwing money away since I will never recoup it if I decided to sell.
Chaz

Some really nice ones for that money or less, for sure. The only issue is that most of them will be 2 1/2" guns. If that's not a concern for you, and if you don't belong to a club where they require steel shot or do a lot of hunting where you need to shoot steel, that's an excellent way to go. Of course you could spend $3K or less on a nice Brit boxlock and have enough left over to buy something that will handle steel, if that's only a minor issue for you.

I was thinking the exact, same thing, but, I wouldn't put a $1000 blank on a $400 gun.

Oh, and I'd be happier without ejectors or a single trigger.

You put it all in pretty good perspective, however.


Best,
Ted

The Webley and Scott 700s are nice guns and they have factory 2-3/4" chambers. They are within your budget.

I understand and empathize. But few who buy at retail ever recoup what they paid when they sell. Used Spanish box locks comparable to the AyA #4 sell on Gun Broker in the $500 range, and used Spanish side lock comparable to the Ugartechea model 110 sell in the $1000 range.

Most of them have integral strikers. There is absolutely nothing wrong with an integral striker-until it breaks. It then becomes a custom one-off repair for a very good gunsmith.

Think disc set strikes. When one breaks, you put another in, in the cab of the truck, using a Zippo for light, if needed.

I am told 700s exist with disc set strikers, but, I haven't seen one.

As to how often integral strikers break, I've seen one more (on a 12 gauge 700) then I needed to see.

Best,
Ted

I guess it depends if you want a brand new shotgun or not. I would look for a gun that can shoot standard modern ammunition, and is steel shot proofed. If you are looking for a new shotgun, I do think the Spanish guns are still a real good value. Better to buy one now before their prices start to sky rocket with new inventory. If you have already owned Ugartechea shotguns, then why not try an AyA. I have purchased both, a mid-grade ($4000) Ugartechea, sidelock, and an AyA 4/53 Cabela Classic. Both are very nice guns, but I do think that the AyA is a bit better in overall finishing. The new AyA shotguns are steel shot proofed as standard, and come with a five year warranty, so to me that shows that AyA is confident in their product. I think Ugartecha has a two year warranty. For the difference in money between the standard 4/53 and the Classic 4/53, I would personally go for the 100% engraved model, it is very nice, I really like mine. It is entirely hand cut engraved, as stated by Bruce Buck in the Shooting Sportsman book, ‘Shotguns on Review’. I have looked at mine under a 10x loop and can see a few variations, mistakes and/or imperfections, but not so noticeable to the naked eye. I bought my AyA 4/53 Classic new in 2012 from Cabela’s, it is also marked NECG on the barrels. The NECG pictures of the AyA 4/25 look just the same as the Cabela’s Classic 4/53. The Cabela AyA 4/53 guns come with a 29 inch barrel. I say buy what you like, you only live once.

Tim

Be very careful with this. Here is the proof mark for guns that have been proofed for steel shot:



If you don’t see that mark on the barrel flats, then the gun is not proofed for steel shot.

[quote=Ted Schefelbein]

"Think disc set strikes. When one breaks, you put another in, in the cab of the truck, using a Zippo for light, if needed"

That I would like to see!

Having removed the striker disc from a couple of guns that have been shot a bit I can tell you that it's been my experience that they are usually difficult to remove & Birmingham trained gunsmith Jack Rowe has mentioned that his method is to set the action in a heavy bench vise & put the striker removal bit in an old fashioned drill brace to get enough leverage to get them out so I'm not the only person that feels that way.

They don't make striker disc removal tools so you can use a 3/8" drive ratchet or "T" handle on them for no reason!

I'm not opposed to disc set strikers but I really don't think they make broken strikers an easy field repair nor do I think strikers integral with the hammers break all that frequently. If they did that design wouldn't have been used on most A&D designs including the Winchester 21, A.H.Fox & Parker.

If you insist on having disc set strikers on a boxlock you eliminate a whole lot of very nice guns as prospects.

No argument though that it's easier cheaper to replace a broken striker on the disc set design than the integral design if it does happen but it has never happened to me or any one I know.

I do however know of 2 sidelock guns with disc set striker that broke their hammers (one a Purdey & one an AYA) but that has not kept me from owning guns with disc set strikers.

True, but have you ever seen a modern Spanish shotgun with reasonably open chokes (modified or less) develop a barrel bulge from shooting steel?

Personally, I haven't, and I've put a fair amount of steel through post-War Spanish guns, none of which were/are proofed for steel.

If I were looking at a new gun, I would want it with a steel proof just because it's an option. But with a used gun I wouldn't necessarily let the lack of a steel proof scare me off.

Looking through my most recent AyA catalogue (2010) I note that at that time they had a USD41 surcharge for steel proofing.

Steel proofing may be standard now but I imagine that the proof is for steel shot loaded to CIP standards, not SAAMI

It is a very easy task on my Uggy. Cole Haugh made the tool for my gun, no ratchet adapter is needed-hell, the wood he put on the tool is nicer than the wood on the gun!
Mine is a boxlock, and if a hammer actually broke, I'd need much more in the way of tooling to fix it than a sidelock gun would. But, I haven't noticed the hammers to be especially prone to problems in boxlocks.
I have seen disk set strikers with only two holes for the pins, and I imagine that would be more problematic than those with three pins.
They don't need to be torqued all that tight, if the gun needs to go in a vise, that seems like overkill.

Best,
Ted

Good point Kyrie. There could still be some old new shotgun inventory floating around, especially through Cabelas. As of 2011, AyA was steel shot proofing their guns as standard. The shotguns will have the fluer de lis mark stamp as shown.

Tim

No offense, but you’re assuming that all “modern Spanish shotguns” are the same – they aren’t. See my above post concerning purpose built shotguns.

I’ve seen current production Spanish light game guns with bulged barrels at the chokes from shooting heavy loads of lead shot. I’ve seen current production Spanish light game guns with stocks damaged/broken from shooting shells that produce recoil that is excessive in a light game gun.



I’ve seen a lot of people run red lights or stop signs without getting hit. Let’s not confuse being lucky with being safe.


A lot of the inexpensive Spanish box lock guns were built as medium game guns and are stoutly built. Open up the chokes so the tightest is mod or less and they will take a lot of abuse before the wheels come off.

I’m not here to tell anyone what to do or not do – we’re all adults. That said, I’d like people to be able to make informed decisions but ultimately that’s optional.

Your guns, your risk, your call.

Fair. We all choose our risk tolerance and hopefully use some basic sense in doing so.

With the sort of modern, overbuilt Spanish guns the OP is considering (Aya #4, Uggie), I don't think there's a big risk to using steel in them as long as the chokes are open. I say that mainly because I've done it with several different guns, have seen a number of friends do it, and not one of us has ever had an issue.

Now, I haven't done it with every gun in existence, and it's entirely possible and maybe even likely that some gun of this type, somewhere, will bulge with steel. So, some risk probably does exist.

Is that risk enough to keep me from doing it? No, because my experience tells me that the risk is small.

Someone else may have very, very little tolerance for risk though, and maybe it should keep them from doing it.

Like you say, everyone has to choose his level of risk and behave accordingly.

Right now steel isn't a concern, although I worry that it won't be all of our problem some day...

I am an open choke kind of a guy. I joke that if you are missing you have too much choke, and if you are then losing wounded birds you need a better dog.

So many options, and I have even been PM'ed a few good deals, wish I could jump on them all. I should be able to shoulder (and maybe shoot) a gun or two like I am looking for at Hausmann's two weekends from now, so I guess I will wait to get a little more hands on before buying anything.

CHAZ

I quite agree that markets do not always determine what is best, but balance value against demand. There are many guns without a great name that cost much less than the same quality of design and build with a name.

You can get a better belgian gun or french gun for the same money on a well made brit gun. While the french and belgian guns are in less demand and you would not have as easy a time selling it, I would look there if performance is your real bottomline.

I also believe the Spanish guns to be a value too. And to answer your original question lay the two guns next to each other try each mounting them and swinging, and pick the one that feels best. If you can't do that then roll a die as if the examples are equal builds its luck. In the same class and price it often comes down to feel and taste.

Hoof....if it were me I would buy this and put a nice piece of wood on it to give you the long pull.
You'll never out shoot it....

http://www.gunsinternational.com/BERETTA...un_id=100426999

I would look for sadly discontinued Beretta Essential or Whitewing. This are light vertical guns designed for carry in bird fields. The one with dull black finish is preferable in the game fields. These are excellent good handling guns that would serve you well. With the money saved I would buy some cartridges get lesson or two from pro and fund part of nice hunting trip with rest of cash. Four grand is too much money to throw into a field gun.

PS. It's your money, but the only way I would spend serious money for bird gun is with proper stock measurements. I suspect this would cost >4,000 anyhow specks will change with things like substantials weight fluctuations and advancing age of shooter.

Hoof, if you're going to Hauseman's, your problems are over.

I was hoping that if I didn't actually find what I want under the big tent, at least I can look at a few guns and decide what it is I want.

Right now I am just waiting for the price on the Purdey in the classifieds here to drop. Just kidding of course.

CHAZ