This might effect some of us & yes it is gun related. May also effect on the value of your old piano or carving set you have in the sideboard.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-offi...ng-commercial-b

Significantly Restrict Domestic Resale of Elephant Ivory:
We will finalize a proposed rule that will reaffirm and clarify that sales across state lines are prohibited, except for bona fide antiques, and will prohibit sales within a state unless the seller can demonstrate an item was lawfully imported prior to 1990 for African elephants and 1975 for Asian elephants, or under an exemption document.
Clarify the Definition of “Antique”:
To qualify as an antique, an item must be more than 100 years old and meet other requirements under the Endangered Species Act. The onus will now fall on the importer, exporter, or seller to demonstrate that an item meets these criteria.

Good luck being able to prove the ivory grips on your Colt or the ivory bead on your SXS is either antique or lawfully imported before 1990. If they really wanted to help the elephant they need to step hard on the Chinese that fuel the demand for illegal animal products. Doing anything with the Chinese is difficult so our politicians will take the "we gotta do something" position and make are lives difficult without any benefit to the elephant.

And how does the Gov't propose to determine elephant ivory form walrus ivory from wart hog ivory, from mastadon ivory from wooly mammoth ivory from hippopotomus ivory from elk ivory???

More evidence of a completely inept, corrupt and idiotic "administration."

When you elect a clueless radical, why would you not expect him to be surrounded with other clueless radicals?

January 2017 cannot get here soon enough.

I don't know about other ivory, but wooly mammoth, mastodon ivory has a different grain structure than modern elephant ivory. I have some mammoth ivory and it is easy to tell it from modern ivory.

Now Ivory is on the "banned list of rare and endangered" things. well truth is it has been for several years. Many woods have been on this same type of list for several years. Raids on guitar makers have happened. I have a small pile of scrap ivory I have bought over the years and while I am not afraid of using it in projects I no longer would be willing to sell it to others. You can still give it away but soon possession will be a problem.

There is no way on Earth to prove where or when small pieces of ivory came from and this action is intended to take advantage of that. There are no serial numbers on ivory and ivory age is very hard to prove. The source, and if legal when and how harvested, are often untraceable and impossible to verify. You are guilty until proven innocent.

As to how you prove what you have is legal that is another question. If you commit a sex crime or kill someone you are assumed innocent until proven guilty. If you have a scrap of ivory you guilty until proven otherwise. I guess words written the US Constitution are fading with light and time. The world is upside down. Not to wish my little remaining life away but I can not wait for these people to leave office. Can not wait and I know the next group may be worse.

The next group will only be worse if otherwise rational people stay home and not vote because the Republican candidate is "not conservative enough."

A moderate Republican is still far and away better for our country than Hillary Clinton or any other demorat that they parade out.

Of late, we have had administrations that will argue the meaning of "is". If two of their experts declare you in possesion, do not expect it to go well. Regardless of what you think, or know.

The Fender guitar raid is connected to the IRS scandal. The owner is a well known contributer to conservative causes, and was fingered for such by the IRS.

Best,
Ted

AMEN

Ted I believe you meant to say Gibson Guitat Company ?

I can see the conversation already.

"Sorry Sir, but we have to take those grips off that old 51' Navy you're selling so we can determine if its elephant ivory or not"

"You ain't touchin that Colt"

Er, yea, but they build guitars, not guitats....


Best,
Ted

Perhaps a more polite answer..

"First let me unload it..gun points towards..."

Gee, a local guy has a big pair of tusks he got from his grandfather over 50 years ago and now I suppose they are illegal.

I don't expect common sense conservatives to undo these issues. They simply won't be willing to fight the PR battle involved in explaining to the public what this really means.

I have some carved walrus ivory from when I lived in AK that have the carvers initials on the pieces. I knew a few folks that had walrus tusks and one guy I knew had some Mammath tusks he found sticking out of the banks on some of the remote rivers he was running. I presume the mammath tusks meet the 100 year old requirement, in the Govt's eyes.

Since the Marine Mammal Protection Act of 1972, AK natives and probably certain tribes in the lower 48 have been the only entities that can legally harvest marine mammals in the US. A non native can only have a piece of walrus/narwhal ivory if it has been inscribed in some manner by a native.

When I lived in AK, Teddy Kennedy came up for a visit, and was given a raw walrus tusk. He was called on the carpet by the USFWS when he was caught trying to smuggle it out of the state, but nothing came of it. If I remember correctly, he was "enabled" by getting a native carver to put some inscription on it to make it legal for him to own and went on his way with the tusk. I'd have been fined a hefty fine, the tusk would have been confiscated and I probably would have spent some time in jail if it had been me.

I consigned about a dozen double guns and almost 200 collector knives to Heritage Auctions in January for their June auction. They are returning several knives to me because they have ivory handles and I do not have documentation to show when the tusks from which they were made entered the U.S. Heritage believes they would be subject to confiscation if offered for sale by them!

We need statutes and regulations banning non-gun owning Liberal bureaucrats and politicians from enacting legislation and making regulations that restrict gun owners from doing what they've been doing for hundreds of years.



Government website is here

This does not just include the sale of ivory, it also includes the export and import of same. Any of you who has a shotgun or double rifle with so much as an ivory sight bead may find your gun confiscated if you take it out of the country to hunt, and attempt to bring it back home.

You will be dealing with a very gun-unfriendly government, and you will spend enormous time and money trying to prove age and provenence. You will probably never see your gun again. This is what happens when supposedly intelligent men vote for someone with a 100% anti-gun voting record and expect a different result.

November mid-terms are coming. This would be a good time to register to vote and join the NRA to both send a message and neuter the Golfer-in-Chief.

Elephant ivory has a "grain" or growth pattern consisting of lines perpendicular to the length of the tusk looking like 60/120 degree lines intersecting each other. Walrus ivory has no growth lines. Mammoth ivory has growth patterns looking similar to a herringbone pattern. Likely the Feds will not care about any of this and reasoning will be irrelevant.

The Dims are not interested in personal rights. They, like the Obamination, are Marxists only interested in the rights of the government, not the individual.
My great, great, great uncle was Lord Acton who was famous for saying "Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely". However, I feel his greatest insightful saying was "Socialism IS slavery". Insightful as he died min 1902.

Pete you exactly right about a grain structure in ivory. That and the smell when heated, which smells like burning hair are easy ways to tell fake from real ivory.

I just sent a number of guns out to be sold. This item was brought up and dealt with in what I thought was a decent way. I removed the ivory sights in four guns that were less than a hundred years old. Guns older than a hundred should be exempt from this new "ruling". Replaced them. the old ivory bead, with a modern sight which was a plastic ivory like bead and placed the ivory sight in a small coin envelope attached to the gun. This sight will be given to the new owner if they wish it. They can have it reinstalled if they wish.

The ivory can not be sold, imported or exported. A gift seemed safe as a way to keep the sight and gun in the same hands. And who knows the new owner may decide the trouble the bead may bring does not merit the risk. I am sure this loophole will be covered by executive order in due course. can not wait until the shoe is on the other foot and "conservative" executive orders are written. Sure the free press will feel free to howl and scream about the illegal actions then.

I'm sure the asian millionaires, whose desire for ivory carvings and other trinkets is fueling the poaching, are laughing their asses off.

I have some piano key ivory from grandpa's piano store-went belly up in 1949. Still have a post card advertising "Pianos, $10 and up!". Molon labe!

Thank Keith:
I suspect a lot of members here including me overlooked the ivory bead front sight potential issue. I for one have ivory beaded doubles.
Jim

What about other elephant products? I have owned wallets,attache' cases and fly whisks made from elephant. I wonder if they are going to ban them to.

I wonder who votes for these idiots that pass these laws???? I never met a person from taxachusettes that voted for a kennedy. or anyone that voted for Obama or polosi or reid or????

Well here's a story about an investigation launched last week in North Carolina where 35,570 people were found to have the same name and date of birth... and voted in multiple states. It's probably just the tip of the iceberg, and the real reason the Democrats are 100% against voter I.D.

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2014/04/massive-voter-fraud-in-north-carolina-35570-voters-with-same-last-name-and-dob-voted-in-two-states/#!

I am sure that the rising price caused by enforced scarcity will do wonders in discouraging elephant poaching.

I always thought that the right thing to do would be to take all the confiscated ivory, and dump it on the market for $5/lb. Make the bottom drop out of the market, and raise funds for medicine or water wells in Africa. Every time they burn it, the price goes up. Idiots!

I swear - you folks are some paranoid MFers. If I worried about all the crap you do I'd never sleep.

so have you written to your congress people to bring this to their attention or just whine about it like gun owners do everything??

have a day

Dr.WtS

Well:
This is certainly a potential problem for those of us with ivory stocked pistols and revolvers most of which were so equipped decades ago. The value of one of these will be greatly diminished particularly if the grips were factory provided.
The way I'm currently seeing this is if you want to sell or trade an ivory gripped pistol the grips would have to be discarded.
Jim

There are also many paranoid musicians who take their ivory inlaid instruments in and out of the country and face loss due to confiscation.

There is a problem when you cannot take your own legally acquired shotgun or violin bow out of the country without having it taken from you. You will be guilty until you can prove that you are innocent, which may prove both costly and impossible. However, the current administration can facilitate the felonious export of illegal arms into Mexico, and ignore Congressional investigation. There is something much more effective than writing one's Congressman. Just stop electing anti-gunners.

Once again, Dr. Wonko is on the wrong side of an issue facing gun owners. I'm glad to see that one thing which causes him to lose sleep is criticism of the Obama administration. He must be sleeping like a baby... crying and shitting himself.

Stop electing anti-gunners?? The sheeple in the big cities have us out numbered, and brainwashed by Bloomberg's lobbyists and adverising flunkies. Hell, the networks won't even run NRA's firearm safety messages. I'm almost glad I'm a geezer, so I won't have to watch the Second Amendment go down the drain much longer. At least the local paper publishes my letters to the editor.
Come to think, the right thing to do with Ivory would be to tax the hell out of it, and use the proceeds to improve the farming community of Africa. Crop raiding elephants would pay for new water wells, etc.

Huh?

Yeah,we're all paranoid.Tell that to Mr. X who had a eagle feather war bonnet and other regalia that had been in his family for over 100 years and then one day the feds show up and confiscate everything. He had proof of ownership going back over 3 generations,including photos, and they still took it. Never did get it all back after 3 years of legal wrangling in court.

There is something much more effective than writing one's Congressman. Just stop electing anti-gunners.

HAHAHA and I thot you were gonna suggest shooting them!

edit: Yeah - don't write. It's WAY more satisfying to do nothing expect rant about the oppressed minority to other members of the oppressed minority, innit???? Nobody gonna call you on it there, eh? And your "don't let them see you" and put you on "the list" of gun nuts paranoia is safe too.

You def need to come to terms with reality. Elected officials don't GAF about gun owners or guitar owners either for that matter. Couple hundred people nation wide? Screw them! All they care about is whether or not the majority of their voting base is not pissed off enough with their crap job performance to not re-elect them. Nobody caters to gun owners, and the few that don't actively seek to cut you off just mouth some platitudes and do nothing - well, blame the liberals so they look like they were getting the hatchet too.

have a day

Dr.WtS

You have to understand, this is Wonko's senate and Wonko's president on the job. He will happily join in the bitching about these bozos he helped to elect, and complain that elected officials don't GAF about the electorate.
Maybe his don't, but, it seems to me one need look only as far as the recently relaxed concealed carry laws that have swept across the US to realize somebody listened. Might not have been to him, but, they listened to the rest of us.
The recently recalled politicians in Colorado (his camp, again) must be a fluke, no? Listening might have been in their best interest, if not ours.
What I can't understand is this country has elected very liberal presidents on three occasions-FDR, Carter, and Obama. None of the others could really be considered very liberal, save LBJ, and he wasn't elected, and got out before he screwed everything up anyway. But the other three losers did the same exact thing to the country-destroyed the economy. All three times.
When do the Wonkos of the world learn? Isn't the definition of insanity doing the same thing over and over, and expecting a different outcome every time?
I question your sanity Dr. Sane.
Really.
Hope the inlays on the banjos you own are all Obama admin approved.



Best,
Ted

"or under an exemption document. . ."

Would this be a CITES permit?

If a hunter imported a pair of elephant tusks legally following a successful hunt after 1990, would his documentation be sufficient?

Has the follow-up rule been announced? In any rulemaking there has to be a comment period. I think all should be alert to that opportunity to speak in opposition to the new rules.

Curl

Those banjo inlays are mostly gonna be abalone or mother of pearl; not to worry...yet.

Well this all sounds like the Smithsonian might be a prime target for a raid. How funny would they find it if every major government type facility or major museum got raided before the first private citizen? Of course that is not they way it will work. Some poor snuck in Idaho is going to get busted for a ivory inlay in his guitar or a set of ivory handles on a old Colt. Worse yet it is only a matter of time before someone with fake ivory gets busted by mistake.

I for one don't paint all politicians with the same brush. My own Congressman, David Schweikert (R. Arizona),is a hunter and a target shooter.
He has stood by us on every issue that would impact our 2nd Amendment rights. Additionally he has NEVER lied to his constituents or mislead us and the people in his district are the type who pay close attention. I agree it's a shame we don't have more elected officials with his ethics.
I for one am sorry to see this issue which I believe is a real one with the potential to affect liberals as well as the typical conservatives who predominate the membership on this board become politicized before all the facts are in.
Jim

Every gun show I go to, I see them. Gun owners like Dr. Wanker the Sane, standing in line to pay inflated prices for guns and ammo. Many, like Dr. Wanker, voted for Hope and Change, and this is what they got for believing that a politician with a 100% anti-gun voting record would not be a threat.

We, millions of us, write, call, and e-mail our Congressmen. We don't need advice from some brain-child with an Obama bumpersticker on their car. It's the only thing that saved our bacon after Newtown when we came so close to major infringements on our rights. Another million of us joined the NRA too. I saw my State Representative glad-handing at a gun show just two weeks ago. He wouldn't have dared to show up if he wasn't solidly with us. Smart man. In 7 months, we have another chance to elect a Congress and Senate that is not dominated by Liberal Socialist anti-gunners. That's what I was trying to say. Some who are pea-brained need to have it spelled out for them.

HAHAHA! I thot you were gonna come up with a stupid response. You did not disappoint. Have a day yerself!

There was a Wonko sighting at the Reno show. Did you pick anything up, Chas? Gawd, he looks OLD! Livin in Frisco will do that to you. I thought he was a bag lady, at first.

Chas is actually a nice guy, believe it or not (you might not ever hear it again).

Chas is certainly right about one thing. VOTE! We lost to the Obamination last time because millions would not either vote for the American candidate nor would vote against the Obamination.

Always good to see that there is another Captain Flapjaw, Mental Defective, fighting the war on reason.

Since you obviously know nothing about me/who I am/what I believe, you should probably just STFU and your BS back in your pocket. It is not my problem that your contact with an objective reality is flawed. Your blathering about how your pols KA is little more than a joke. I suspect that your appreciation of commodification is lacking.

Pete - I didn't see anything that was overpriced enough at Reno for me to be interested in. Only saw one 45-70 and overpriced as it was, it just didn't speak to me. And, FYI, you should be checking the mirror for how you increment that "old" scale. Kind of you to refer to me as "nice", but to tell the truth I've too low a frustration tolerance to be "nice".

I could be worng

have a day

Dr.WtS

If you want to see a bunch of old people go to your first high school or college reunion after 30 or 40 years. Gadzooks where did all those old broads and fat, bald men come from. Youth is wasted on the young.

I broke up my high school English teacher when I described the girls at my 10th reunion as looking "so matronly". Guess I prefer young chicks.

At my 30th, scattered in and amoungst the fat, wrinkled, sun bunnies, were a few stunning examples of just how good a middle aged woman can look. I graduated with 900 kids, and was surprised at how dang good a few of the girls looked, and how bad most of them looked.

To a large degree, the men were better preserved. YRMV.


Best,
Ted

Violin bows suspected of containing ivory were seized at the Kennedy International Airport. They belong to members of the Budapest orchestra who were to perform at Lincoln Center.

http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/0...ncerns/?src=twr

scary

Good to know the Budapest ivory pipeline has been stopped. God, does brain power decrease with government service or is the removal of any real brain power a requirement before employment.

This PC non sense either has to stop or we are truly and totally screwed long term.

I'm a fiddle player, & had a long talk with a mate on the way to a gig who deals in Violins, bows etc, he was very concerned...nearly all good old bows have an Ivory tip guards @ the sharp end.Abalone n Mother of pearl are also pretty heavily regulated,& might need paper work as regards to the Specific Species of said material for Christs sake! or so he said...could be a nightmare in many occupations if they get the magnifying glass out
franc

I've skipped every one of mine for that reason. I KNOW how I now look and I'd prefer to remember them as they looked back then.
Jim

I went to my 20th, all the guys looked like used car salesmen--for a Mercedes dealer. I wore a deerskin vest from a deer that I shot, and a Hawaiian shirt, found that the kid next door that used to beat up on me regularly turned into a full blown hippie. He had some killer weed. Never went to another. No ex girlfriends there, I was the youngest kid in class-no girl would date the chubby wiseass geek.

Heard an NPR feature on this situation today, think it was on Marketplace. Included an interview that indicated the orchestra had filed all the required paperwork on their bows, including photos, before they entered the U.S. and had obtained permission to bring the bows in. Still, seven (I think) of the bows were held at Customs and these world class professionals were forced to play with borrowed bows. When they left the country, they got their bows back but had to pay a substantial fine. Absurd. The government is out of control. Good luck traveling with an old double with ivory bead.

Do you think this gent would have a problem?



Curl

Not as long as he has that double and the reserve to use it. Sheep are led to the slaughter not so much sheep with guns.

Sadly, the weight of this new heavy-handed government action is becoming apparent. If anybody had their eyes on the just completed James D. Julia auction you would have seen it first hand.

Any firearm that had even a speck of ivory, such as a front sight bead, had an entry stating the following:

James D. Julia Auctioneers complies with all federal laws and regulations (Please review our Ivory Position Statement): The African ivory mounts on this item were in the country long before the January 8th, 1990’s CITE appendix. As per the President’s Executive Order of February 2014, this gun accompanied by an appropriate ESA is legal to sell and buy. However, no ivory will accompany this gun when you purchase it unless you hire John Sexton to prepare an ESA statement. If you hire John Sexton to prepare an ESA statement, the cost is $1,500.00. John Sexton is an independent consultant with appropriate qualifications to prepare ESA statements. John Sexton’s address is 1962 Portage Landing North, North Palm Beach, Florida 33408. It is the buyer’s responsibility to make payment to John Sexton for ESA statements. Documents are prepared by John Sexton and not James D. Julia Auctioneers. Once statements are prepared, a copy will be presented to Julia’s and they will then present you with the ivory mounts for this gun. Another copy should be kept with your gun.

THIS GUN WILL BE SOLD WITHOUT ITS IVORY. IF THE BUYER WISHES TO HAVE THE IVORY, THEY MUST HIRE JOHN SEXTON TO PREPARE AN ESA “ANTIQUE CERTIFICATION” (COST $1,500).

This is a copy and paste from Lot #2265. You can see it here: Lot 2265 That piece of contraband has "An ivory bead front sight is longitudinally dovetailed into front ramp."

Julia has posted their Ivory Position Statement here: Julia Ivory Position Statement

So boys and girls, this Executive Order signed by our President is very real and will show its impact in the months and years to come. It's shocking really. For most of us with ivory appointments on our guns it will be impossible to comply with the policies announced by the Fish & Wildlife Service: U.S. Fish & Wildlife Ivory Ban Policies. Note that every burden of proof is placed on the owner (seller). You must prove what species it is and that it was legally imported, etc. The government has no burden of proof at all.

I have very little ivory. A few doubles with ivory beads and a pair of ivory grips for a Colt 1911. I wouldn't be able to "prove" the legality of any of it under the regulations. What about you?

Curl

Here are some photos of a Suhl 9.3x74R double rifle I owned some years back (these photos are from Champlin's website some years after I parted with this rifle):









That beautiful work of art is now virtually unsellable.

Curl

Ivory dildoes, are they covered by this law too? Or are they exempt if they are over 100 years old and pics of grandmas prove their provenance?

"Gross grandma, that thing is too old to use anymore, and what is the ivory thing you have!"
CHAZ

Pray that the next administration at least modifies the Exec order. Or better yet the Supreme Court curtails Executive Orders all together. They might have a little to say about the constitutionality of them entirely.

Our fearless leaders in DC might also want to think about what will happen when the otherside gets back into power if Executive Order becomes endorsed by the Supreme Court. Gridlock may end but presidential decree becomes law. We fought wars to put that type of whim power down.

http://www.nraila.org/legislation/federa...amp;st=&ps=

Interesting data on Executive Orders:

http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/data/orders.php