Hello, I am new to the forum and I am looking for some information on a gun I just purchased. It is marked Lefever Arms Co and has fluid steel barrels that have been cut down to 26". It is marked 317xx I. It is also marked "Pat'd 1872" under the forearm. From information I have so far, the serial number puts it at 1901 but I am aware that 1/3 of the guns made by LAC were produced out of sequence and even some of them were finished in Ithaca after the sale in 1916. Furthermore, "I" grades did not begin until serial numbers around 360xx according to some experts that I have consulted. This gun does have a dolls head rib extension to perhaps complicate things more. Any help from you double gun enthusiasts out there?

I think you may find your answers at the "LEFEVER FORUM". Sounds like an interesting shotgun.

http://lefeverforum.informe.com/

I lifted the link from your posting on the lefeverforum. I'm just posting one of your four.

I think your gun is one of the examples of the mysteries of Lefevers. While it is clearly marked I grade, it certainly looks more like an H with the dolls head and cocking indicators.

Looks like a Ithaca made gun using parts on hand to make up alter grade gun. Serial number is only the most basic guide for Lefever production date. I have seen late features on early serial numbers but not early features on later guns. Use to think that was just from guns being returned to the factory and being upgraded to late features. Not so sure much if any of that occurred. I have a DS which has a burl stock which would have been at home on a A grade. Either a bin clean out gun or gun made for employee.

Remington employees use to raid the wood room for employee grade blanks all the time. I bought an 1100 Skeet with exhibition grade feather crotch from a retired Remington employee. Sure that type of thing has gone on forever.

Ithaca assembled Lefevers can usually be identified by letters stamped in the forend hangers. I say usually because just about anything is possible when it comes to Lefever guns. H and higher grade guns will have cocking indicators on the side plates while I and DS grades usually do not. From the photo posted on the Lefever forum it is a safe bet that your gun was assembled by Ithaca from remaining parts at the tail end of their production.

Hello eabond20
Pleased to have you on your first posting

fun reading
http://lefeverforum.informe.com/new-i-grade-dt709.html

I am sure the others wanted to say welcome also
You have some good data above,
Send more side pictures if you can.
Mike

I think it's more than likely that this is a Syracuse built gun, and I also feel that way too many Lefever guns are attributed to Ithaca. I keep hearing that up to 1/3 were built out of sequence, but have never seen any proof for that claim. The factory records are lost and there just aren't that many surviving guns accompanied by dated invoices. Most likely, a dolls head frame was used to expedite an order when I or DS frames were in short supply. We frequently see Lefevers with features of a higher grade gun... E barrels on an F or sear adjustment screws on a G for example, but we never see them using lower grade parts or materials to finish a gun.

It just doesn't make sense that a company that was frequently short on cash, to the point of needing investors or partners, would have perhaps 10,000 unfinished frames and parts for same in inventory. This would be even more unbelievable for the Durstons if they were contemplating getting out of the gun business. Also, case hardening was normally done late in the process. Guns were stocked while the metal was in the white. Why would Ithaca continue to stamp or engrave so many guns "Syracuse, N.Y."? When misinformation is repeated often enough, it becomes gospel. Damascus barrels are another example.

This is an interesting gun and another mystery. Last year, I bought an I grade in 16 gauge, XX frame, and automatic ejectors.

Does your I grade have cocking indicators and the LAC buttplate as we have seen on a few DS grades which have dolls heads and twist barrels? Are you sure your barrels are fluid steel, or perhaps reblued twist?

I think you are mistaking "made by Ithaca" and "made in Ithaca". When the Ithaca Gun Co. took over the Lefever Arms Co. in 1916 they continued to make guns in Syracuse until 1919. Then they made a few guns in Ithaca which are labeled Ithaca, NY.

We have no evidence that the Lefever Arms Co. under the Durston family was short on cash or unprofitable. However, they lost their inventor and designer in 1901. The guns did not change appreciably from that point forward with the exception of the introduction of a single trigger. However, even that was invented by Dan Lefever before he left.

I believe that the fact that the Durstons had nobody to keep up with technical innovations which were rampant at this point in time led them to sell off in pursuit of a more lucrative business in the rapidly expanding automobile industry.

There are a number of distinguishing features of Ithaca assembled guns that have been identified. There are limited records available from Abercrombie and Fitch which reliably identify some Ithaca assembled guns and have allowed us to examine those features and identify those that are associated with the Ithaca Arms Co.

Just for the record I have two G grades with Sear Adjusting screws, one a two hook gun @ SN 20,633, the other an early large hook gun @ N 29,418. My observations are this is normal for a G in this SN range, not an "Up-Grade". My FE @ # 38,025 does not have the sear adjusters. I do not know if any of the early H's had them or not, but easrly G's do. They were apparently eliminated at some point on all grades below an E, probably some where between 29K & 38k numbers.

Dr. Bob, we do know that Dan Lefever sold off a controlling interest in his company to the Durstons and Howletts shortly after he incorporated the Lefever Arms Co. This was shortly after the Panic of 1893, and U.S. unemployment remained above 10% for over 5 years. There were several other economic contractions in the early 20th century which of course led to the creation of the Fed. The Panic of 1907 is notable as the stock market fell 50% in less than one year. 1907 also coincides with the end of the I grade Lefever gun. Hard times could well explain taking on investors or moving into other product lines like bicycle chains for Dan Lefever or automotive gears for the Durstons.

If we look at the serial number of the I grade in this thread, I'd say it's possible this might be one of the earliest prototype I grade guns. I grade would be the next logical progression downward in grade from the H, and a switch to cheaper fluid steel barrels to produce an even cheaper gun would be expected. That's why I questioned if this gun had cocking indicators and the LAC buttplate, and if it really had fluid steel tubes. I should have also asked if it has a semi-pistol grip stock. I've read that the Durston's insistence on producing lower grade guns to compete with cheap Belgian imports, the I and DS grades, may have hastened Dan's departure from his own company. The serial number of this gun would fit into that 1901 timeline.

I wonder what source you have for saying that Ithaca kept the sideplate production in Syracuse from 1916-1919? Elliot's books have the move happening immediately, and I've also read that the move was more gradual, but that production was in fact moved to Ithaca, N.Y. Either way, I still have serious reservations about the number of guns which are attributed to Ithaca.

If production did remain in Syracuse, you'd think most, if not all of the original workforce would have remained, and there would be little or no differences in the guns. If and when production and machinery was moved to Ithaca, it's hard to believe that production levels would have remained constant or even increased during such a transition. Also, would Ithaca really have flooded the market with a gun that was in direct competition with their own flagship Flues model double?

I'm also curious about the features which you say are consistant with Ithaca assembled guns, and how they differ from guns built under Durston or Lefever/Durston management. And I wonder if you have any explanation for the oft repeated statement that up to 1/3 of Lefevers were built out of sequence. From what I've seen of the serial number data that was being collected, there weren't enough small details being provided to make a definitive statement. It seems that new features and innovations were being put into guns and sold before patents were actually granted, and this could sometimes make accurate dating almost impossible without the actual records or invoices.

Miller, I'm assuming you are referring to G grades with the sear adjusters which must be accessed by removing the sideplate. I should have been more specific. I was referring to the external sear adjusting screw which was not supposed to be found on guns lower than E grade. I have that type on a GE and an FE, and the FE barrels are stamped with an E. Both of these are in the 40k-50k serial number range. I've seen several similar up-grades, especially with barrels, but have never seen an obvious down-grade. But I should know better than to say never when it comes to a Lefever.

The Ithaca assembled guns have less precise fitting and also the stocks are just not a slim as the earlier Lefevers. You know one when you see it is the best explanation I can give you. Without factory records it comes down to a matter of opinions about what and when things were made and by whom. The later guns are a drop off in quality for sure.

Perhaps we just need to disagree on this one because Lefever owners tend to have very strong views of what they know and believe. I have only spent about ten years learning about Lefevers so make no claim as to being an expert, but some here have spent four or five decades and I defer to their viewpoints. I do think Dr. Bob is right in why the Durstons sold Lefever to Ithaca. Again I wonder if any inventory of stock and parts on hand was ever recorded at the time of sale? treasure beyond count that list may be if ever found. Perhaps some agreement was filed with the State of NY at the time of sale so the state could get their taxes from the sale of Lefever. Even then states ran on paper and taxes.

Unless someone can point to any specific Ithaca assembly features, I think that Keith's theory that this may be more of a prototype I grade is more plausible. As a prototype the gun could have had the doll's head just like the other Lefever grades before the later I's and then DS Lefevers went to a slotted rib.

Keith;
My G @ SN 29,418 has the externally slotted sear adjustment screw. My question to you is What Evidence do you have that it should not have this screw. Where is it written in stone that this should only be on an E grade or higher gun? My best thoughts on the issue is that whether the screw was adjusted from the inside or outside was a time frame thing & the discontinuance of the screw on grades lower than E was a cost cutting feature on the lower grades which came about at some point in time. I would feel it likely that the side plates were probably made in larger batches than were frames & barrels so it would certainly be conceivable that an earlier plate was in inventory & used at a date after the screw had essentially been eliminated. This would not in & of itself necessarily prove it was a plate from a higher grade gun.
My 38,025 FE has chain damascus barrels which also have an E on them. This was my very first Lefever & at the time I just assumed the E was for the ejectors. Eventually I would learn it was not normal practise to stamp ejector barrels with an E. As chain damascus was I believe more commonly used on E grades than F grades, quite possibly this gun's barrels were considered E grade barrels.

Miller has reminded us that E marks on F grade guns were rather common.

Keith, I stand corrected concerning the location of the Ithaca assembly of the Lefever Guns. I found this article in the Syracuse newspaper. Although I don't have the date it is quite clear from the context that the move was made shortly after the sale in 1916.
[img:center][/img]

We certainly do not know how many guns Ithaca assembled. Based on Bob Elliott's number projections the annual production by the Lefever Arms Co. from 1910 to 1914 was a little less than 2,000 guns per year. I doubt that the total production by Ithaca exceeded 1 year's production by the LAC. Even if they only assembled 1,000 guns that would make them as common as Dan Lefever's crossbolt guns. Quite clearly some assembled by Ithaca are labeled Syracuse, NY. Whether this was because they were already stamped or done deliberately by Ithaca will never be known.

The argument I have against the "prototype" theory for the gun in question is why the LAC would choose to basically discount an H grade gun by simply marking it I grade. On the other hand, I have no explanation of why the serial number is so low as compared to other known Ithaca guns.

It would help if the original poster would publish photos of the underside of the barrels. Sometimes, but not always, Ithaca has unique markings on the barrels that identify them as having been assembled by Ithaca.

Bob, We still hear that Lefever was sold to Ithaca. I'm sure that I read 25-30 years ago that it was sold to a group of 3 people at 10:00 in the A M and they sold it to Ithaca in the afternoon. Was Mr Harvey J McMurchy one of the 3? and what was his relationship with Ithaca?

According to Walter Snyder, in his Ithaca Gun Co. book, the sale of The Lefever Arms Co. to The Ithaca Gun Co. was indeed accomplished through a straw purchase. The individuals who purchased the LAC were Charles Rinehart, Howard Cobb, and Nelson Genung. They were close friends if the Smiths and Livermores of the Ithaca Gun Co. The sale took place a week later.
I don't know who Harvey McMurchy was or if he was at all involved.

Miller, I don't have any evidence that the extermal slotted sear adjustment screw does not belong on a 29k G grade. All I have is observations and conjecture until those factory records surface... just like everyone else. Elliot stated that these were only found on E grade and above. They may be an anomoly on my FE and GE guns only because these two are later production.

I have seen pictures of Lefevers stamped Ithaca, N.Y., but never got to actually examine one up close and personal. I have read that they soon ran out of English Walnut blanks and turned to using Black Walnut as Ithaca used on their own guns, but dammit, I can't recall where I saw that. Can anyone confirm that? I have seen a couple Lefevers that looked factory stocked, but the wood appeared to be Black Walnut.

DrBob, some conjecture on my part once again, but the reason I thought this gun may be a prototype I grade was based on the serial number, which would place it just prior to Dan Lefever's departure. I can imagine the Durstons having a frame stamped I, fitted with those less costly fluid steel barrels, a semi-pistol grip stock, no forearm escutcheon, perhaps a plain incised buttplate, and showing it to Dan... which could have been the last straw for him. I have read that he absolutely did not wish to produce a plainer cheaper gun to compete with Belgian imports, but then again, we see him producing the O-Excelsior grade crossbolt just a few years later. Why use a dolls head frame for an I grade prototype? Why not, when thats all you have in frames and barrels? That alphabetical downward progression would have been exactly what was done when F became the lowest grade gun in the product line, followed by the G grade, and then the H grade. Take away the LAC buttplate, the capped pistol grip option, the more expensive twist barrels, maybe the cocking indicators, and we have a prototype I grade. One collector e-mailed me a bunch of information last year supporting his conclusion that the I grade possibly pre-dated the DS grade. His ideas and evidence make more sense after seeing this frame. I too wish the original poster would come back with additional information and pictures.

I can agree with the estimate of production numbers as high as 2000 a year in Ithaca from 1916-1919. And I would tend to believe that the bulk of those guns were nearly identical to their Syracuse counterparts. If Ithaca built guns were as "common" as D.M. Lefever crossbolt guns, we would seldom ever even see one. That's why I tend to question the large numbers of guns, especially lower serial number guns, that are attributed to Ithaca, just because they are a little different, strange, or unusual. We see anomolies throughout the life of the company. I think that's understandable when you have Dan and his sons, and others constantly tinkering with the design. And I still question the oft repeated notion that upwards of 1/3, or around 22,000 guns, would have been built out of sequence. Yet when you look at some of the old available serial number lists, you see fairly uniform batches of E grades followed in general numerical progression by fairly uniform batches of something else. We see very similar runs or batches in the Parker Gun Serialization book.

I didn't chime in to upset any apple carts, but I do think some erroneous information has been repeated about Lefevers for years and has come to be accepted as factual. We may never know all the answers, but then, they wouldn't be so interesting if we ever did have all the answers.

Keith, I highly doubt that the Ithaca production numbers equaled those of the 1910-1914 LAC production. Even if they reached half, that would be 3000 guns which would make them almost 3X more common than crossbolts. In addition I think that a higher percentage of the Ithaca assembled guns were lower grade, but that is just an observation from those that I have seen that were definitely Ithacas. I have examined some high grade guns that were marked Ithaca. Some are high quality and some had really shoddy engraving for a high grade gun. They had to resort to heavy discounting near the end to move the last of the inventory.

I do believe that the I and DS grades contributed to Uncle Dan's departure. I have the distinct feeling that he was similarly opposed to the 0 Excelsior grade crossbolt that was introduced in the last years of the DM Lefever Co. in Ohio.

I don't have personal access to the current numbers list and am too lazy to collect my own. I cannot verify what percentage of guns appear to be out of sequence because of features that had been introduced at lower serial numbers and replaced those present on a higher serial number gun. We don't fully understand how the production ran. Were batches of frames milled, serial numbered and graded, then stored for future use? I wish I knew.

I don't know that it has any bearing on the discussion of this I grade, but Lefever Arms Co. was not sold to Ithaca directly or through a straw. Instead my understanding is that LACo sold its gun related assets to Ithaca and the Lefever Arms corporation continued under Durston ownership as the Durston Gear Corporation. Does anyone have any more specific facts, documents or articles from the press on this?

According to Walter Snyder The original Lefever Arms Co. under the Durstons was never incorporated. It was incorporated under the names of some of the principals of the Ithaca Gun Co. (but not the Ithaca Gun Co. itself)on July 6, 1916. The Document of Incorporation is reproduced on page 96 of Walter's 2nd Edition of "The Ithaca Gun Company: From the beginning".

Apparently all of the material was shipped directly to the Ithaca Gun Co. on March 4, 1916. It appears that the Lefever Arms Co. was still a separate entity from The Ithaca Gun Co. although the owners of both were the same group of individuals. The Lefever Arms Co had to pay rent and a royalty to the Ithaca Gun Co for each gun produced. I do not know what happened in 1919 when original Lefever production ceased. By 1933 the Lefever Arms Co. catalog marketing the Nitro Specials stated "operated by the Ithaca Gun Co". That same year barrels were changed from Lefever Arms Ithaca, NY to Lefever Arms, a branch of Ithaca Gun Co. By 1935 The catalogs of the two companies were combined.

A 1951 Tax Court decision raises questions about Walt Snyder's statement. The decision involved an employee who went to work for Lefever Arms Co. in the gun business in 1913. The court's decision describes the sale of the gun business to Ithaca and the continuation of Lefever Arms Co. in the automotive gear business, which after 1918 operated under the name of Durston Gear Corporation. While the decision is not crystally clear about when the corporation was formed, it is explicitly talking about a corporation with shares and suggests that after 1918 there was a name change to Durston Gear Corporation. See Bryan v. IRS, 16 T.C. 972, 1951 U.S. Tax Ct. LEXIS 203 (1951). Maybe Walt can shed more light on this, but the Tax Court decision sounds like the Lefever Arms Co. gun business assets were sold by a corporation which went into the automotive gear business and eventually changed its name to Durston Gear Corporation. Hopefully Walt has some specifics that he might be able to share to shed light on this.

Dr. Bob, The part gun of the business was sold in 1916. The Lefever Gear business went on from there. I can bring the Bill of sale, etc.to the SxS next week if you want to see it. All Lefevers were from Ithaca post 1916 period.

Walt, Can you possibly provide a scan (PDF) or xerox copy of the Bill of Sale, etc. relating to the sale. Given the description of the corporate history in the tax case I mentioned it sounds like it was an asset sale (parts, inventory, work in process and the trade name) and that the corporation continued in the gear business. It is not as clear as it might be so your paperwork (bill of sale and any related papers) would likely be very, very helpful. Thanks.

Walter, I will be at the Southern SxS at the Lefever table next weekend. I would very much like to see what you have and discuss what we do know about the transfer.

I mis-spoke. I do not have the bill of sale. What I have are the minutes of the newly purchased assets where it lists among them the right to use the Lefever name for shotguns only' or words to that effect.

Walter does that perhaps include an inventory of goods purchased or is that just the agreement to allow them to continue making and using the Lefever name in guns only? That would put much of this debate to rest by itself. If parts on hand was less than enough to make a few hundred guns then it was not so much a parts cleanup as an attempt to keep making the Lefevers from scratch. And Ithaca could certainly make any Lefever from scratch if desired. Perhaps demand was not what was expected or the profit in making the Lefever was just to small to justify the space, labor pool and investment for a decreasing product line. Any minutes from the meeting deciding to stop Lefever production could give clues to when and why they were dropped from the product line.

Considering that Ithaca had their own flagship boxlock double guns, which were certainly well made and very popular, it seems likely that the sole intent of Ithaca was to capitalize on the good Lefever brand name with the introduction of the cheaper Nitro Special. Considering how slowly things often moved in the gun industry, it didn't take long after 1919 for the Nitro Special to emerge. They must have gotten a pretty good deal on the Lefever name and inventory, because they were advertising sideplate guns at a 40% discount in the 1917 catalog according to Elliot. I wonder if sales of Lefever sideplate guns appeared anywhere in Ithaca's ledgers??? Remington may have made Parkers, but it is very doubtful that we'd ever see Remington making model 94 Winchesters. Companies are funny about propping up the products that come from their major competition.

Since the Nitro Specials eventually reached four times the production numbers of the original hammerless sideplate Lefevers, it seems it was a smart business move. I want to thank Mr. Snyder for his input and perhaps providing a couple more pieces to the puzzle.

I have somewhere a memo from one of the Livermores where it is stated that Ithaca never intended to produce the side plate gun as part of the Ithaca product line. Their intent was to use the Lefever name on a lower priced gun. The war delayed the introduction of the Lefever Nitro Special a few years. The minutes noted all gun related parts, work in progress and most of the gun related machinery with a few exceptions that are spelled out.( A Miller milling machine, a grinder and a few other things). It seems to me that the Durstons wanted out of the gun business and into the more profitable auto gear business. Bob Noble sent me a copy of the Durston's gear catalog.

Walter, is it your feeling that Ithaca just finished up parts on hand or did they build a significant number of side plate Lefevers from scratch? And to me new guns produced, not from parts on hand, would be interesting to know about. Many assumed that several thousand guns might have been made from parts on hand but I have always wondered how a company that for years had been undercapitalized could have built up vast stores of parts. The Durstons were no fools and I just could not see them allowing the gun side to build up parts inventory just to keep employees busy and give them work while tying up money in parts not with a prospect of quick profits.

Is there a break down of parts? Number of rough castings or receivers on hand. To me the key is receivers as everything else could be easily made but the expense of new receivers would not be justified if you were just using up parts. Perhaps several hundred receivers on hand for the DS and regular Lefevers and went with the sale. They would be just scrap unless used to make new guns. I think good records would be a great source for a article and perhaps answer one or more burning questions for Lefever fans. then again they just might open up more speculation as well.

There is no detailed inventory of parts and pieces. It in my thought (no data) that Ithaca sold finished guns and assembled guns from parts. Some Ithaca Lefever side plate guns have been found with Ithaca barrels. I think the number of guns produced in closer to being in the 100s rather then the 1000s. JMO.

Walter, your opinion is pertinent with me!
Thanks for your efforts
Mike

Original poster here! I am fascinated by the responses and I have not yet read through all of them yet. Thanks to all you dedicated enthusiasts. I have the gun at a trusted gunsmith right now to check it out so I can not currently take more pictures. But I can answer some of the questions that were asked:
1) buttplate is in rough shape but it appears to be round "LAC" type
2) I have not removed sideplates to see about adjustable sears.
3) There appears to be no additional marking under the barrels other than the serial number and an "x", which I think is frame size?
4) cocking indicator is the type that protrudes out the sideplate when cocked.
5) gun does not say either Syracuse or Ithaca anywhere.
6) forearm does not have any metal parts on it like others with similar serial numbers.

I will get a chance to read through the rest of the responses and hopefully answer the rest of the questions. Again, thanks for all your insights on this topic!

Lefevers generate a lot of interest to those of us who like them. What they do not generate is a lot of hard data and indisputable points of agreement. perhaps that is why some of us like them. Enjoy yours and see if you can find a little more about them as you shoot and get hooked on them. Warning they are like potato chips. One is never enough.

It is quite likely that your local gunsmith knows less about Lefevers than several members of this forum.
If you live on the East Coast the Lefever Arms Collectors Association will be at several Side by Side meets this summer. We are also present at the annual Antique Gun Show in Las Vegas every January. You are welcome to bring it by for a personal examination.

I and DS grades most usually have a distinctive round knob buttstock and forend without a metal tip. Since you can't get a photo at this time could you describe the buttstock and forend?

Hello again,
Addidtional information:
1) I believe the gun to have a semi pistol grip stock although I get confused by the terminology here. It is definately not a straight or English grip stock.
2) The end of the grip is plain and does not have the plastic beveled cap that is common on the Lefevers of similar vintage.
3) The forend in plain wood - no metal components.

Here's a link to a DS grade Lefever with a semi-pistol grip stock. See Photo no.5:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=410892077

What you have is what I'd expect to see if the Durstons were building a prototype gun that was a grade lower than the H grade. I'd be very interested to know if the barrels are indeed fluid steel, which would make sense from a cost cutting standpoint. It could be that their original intention was to offer the I grades with the cheaper fluid steel barrels and the DS grade with twist barrels. This might help to explain the DS grades we sometimes see with dolls head twist barrels and cocking indicators.

I would not expect to see any sear adjusters on this gun, and would not even bother looking. I merely brought the appearance of those up to illustrate that sometimes unexpected features appeared on a slightly lower grade gun.

Yesir Kieth. It looks exactly like the one you pictured. It also definately has fluid steel barrels. Hopefully pictures soon...