Has anyone had any experience in relining a double rifles barrels? I have the opportunity to bid on a .380 caliber double barrel hammer rook rifle with average bores and I was wondering how complex or costly it would be to have the barrels relined to original, or a similar caliber. I think an uncommon English gun like this would make an excellent project and shooter assuming the barrels can restored.
Any information and experience on barrel relining would be greatly appreciated
cheers Rhys
Rhys,
This is your gun to do with what you will, but I reccomend you resist the temptation to reline the barrels now.Most 380 Rook rifles shoot poorly because of using improper bullets.I suggest you try handloading before relining.
Mike
Mike,
I am not even sure how easily you could locate a .38 liner of the proper length. I had 1 22lr single shot relined some years back. So I do understand the urge.
Have you even tried to fire the gun? How accurate is it in it's current state?
Pete
Track of the Wolf has a wide selection of rifle liners. Others do as well. You can get a lot of information on thefiringline.com forums and other rifle oriented boards. Low pressure cartridges are a must for this type of alteration. The liner is the real barrel, that is held in by solder or epoxy. Any voids in the epoxy creates a weak spot. Solder never goes from end to end so it has even more voids than epoxy. Too high pressure would cause the liner to distort which would ruin the liner for accuracy. So you can not place a .225 liner in your double gun, the pressures would be too high. Select your caliber according to this type of limitation.
Before you go down that road I would try the barrels as they are. You are looking for a plinking gun not a match rifle. Hand loading could help. I have been thinking about taking one of the Rook rifles that has been converted into a shotgun and have them relined back to a rook rifle. Economics of the job just makes it a money pit but that has not always stopped me before.
Good catch on the Track of the Wolf reliners... Though the OP may not be able to get one from there, he is located in Australia. Some one down under must stock them.
Pete
Yes, proper loads and bullets should enable it to do well.
But also, I like Redmans
http://www.redmansrifling.com/relining.htmFun reading
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?34724-Info-on-380-Rookand
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?38362-380-Rook-heel-mould-arrivesOr if you want to go to 38 Special you can go here
Contact Mike Sayer of T.J.'s liners 859-635-5560.
Mike has liners way over 3 feet long that he cuts to length.
Mike
Another idea
Might trim the 38 Special case to about 2 inches
3.0 grains of Bullseye
Hornady HBWC
http://www.hornady.com/store/38-Cal-.358-148-gr-HBWC/Mike
What about .22 Magnum (WMR)?
With kind regards,
Jani
38/357 is an attractive alternative but you have to think ahead. Pistol type calibers I think will become much more regulated in the future. An older obsolete cartridge might fly under the radar. 25-20 is a modest, but fun round, based off the 32-20, the 218 bee was the small bore version. I would pick a low pressure cartridge with plenty of cheap brass and a good selection of bullets to load. .38 and 9mm seem alternatives but again I worry about the connection to pistols cartridges and what the future will hold.
I was keeping the pressure WAY DOWN as the original cartridge
was a black powder cartridge and the 3 grains of Bullseye
is also a mild load. I would not even shoot factory 38 Specials
in a relined barrel but only mild reloads.
Well maybe Western .38 Special Super Match, 148 Grain Lead Mid-Range, 38SMRP.
I shoot it in my blow back Colt 1911.
Mike
Jani, as much as I love the .22 WRM, the conversion from CF to RF can be expensive and vexing, might be especially so in a double rifle. It takes some serious geometry to shape the liner so that the CF firing pin hits the rim of the RF cartridge. I've seen it done, but not in a double. Actually changing the pins from CF to RF is feasible but VERY expensive unless you can do it yourself.
I like the conservative suggestions to handload until you find a reasonably accurate load, or let it alone. Many of the ".36 cal" rook cartridges use heeled bullets and can be made to shoot by using a hollow-based .38 Special wadcutter and black powder.
The one (a "no-name" Martini .360) I messed with worked quite well in spite of a fairly rough bore when I carefully "tempered" the nose and bearing body of the bullets and left the hollow bases soft so they could expand and fill the bore.
Thanks, Mike. You have a PM.
With kind regards,
Jani
Mike A.,
My cousin and I never could get good results with the hollow base bullets in his .380 Martini Rook rifle.We didn't try Black powder,however, which may have made it work.I had a mold for a conical bullet intended for 36 cal cap and ball revolver.The base was rebated enough to use it as a heeled bullet(lubed with Alox).It was satisfactory, but had to be handled carefully.I think Buffalo Arms may have 38 Colt heeled bullets, maybe even a mold.I still think this should be seriously tried first.Re-regulating this double to .22 would be a "trick", even with the little convergence for low recoiling 380 Rook.Again, just my opinion, it's not my rifle.
Mike
Double Rook Rifles are very rare and depending on make it could be quite valuable in its present un-altered state. Here in Britain they are much sought after. They have antique status here if original and hence fetch high prices. Check with Smallbore on this site and he may be in a good position to advise before you alter it.
I have a single .360 Rook Rifle which will take .38 Special brass and I just load for it using .38 Special cases and dies and get good accuracy over moderate distances although it does have a tendency to tumble bullets over longer range.
I bought one that had been converted by lining to .32 S&W Long that has similar ballistics to the original. That makes a good option if you insist on altering it but do remember that double rifles can be absolute pigs to regulate to shoot both barrels to the same point of impact. I would be loath to alter it. Lagopus.....
I haven't actually seen the gun yet so the bores might still be in usable condition which i would greatly prefer over relining. The gun only has BP proof marks but no maker they can find. Overall it sounds like a higher quality English gun with foliate engraving to the locks and action, side lever, tall dolphin hammers and nice thick percussion fences.
what would be a rough price estimate off the information i have given you?
cheers Rhys
Certainly here in the U.K. if it is in good or restorable condition it may be anywhere between £1,000 and £2,000. As I say doubles are rare in Rook Rifles. It sounds as if it was made in the trade and a name never put on. I have a nice single that has no name so it isn't that unusual. Lagopus.....
Rhys95,
I checked the Bufflo Arms website,it turns out they don't have the heeled 38 Colt bullets listed.However they have a mold listed for .380", 135gr heel base bullet, for $139.95.They also have loaded ammo. The 38 short Colt has the heeled bullet, but I suspect the 38 long Colt ammo is loaded with .357-.358" diameter bullets, because it is listed as Cowboy ammo.I believe most SASS 38Colt revolvers actually use .357" barrels.In any case ammo may not be avaliable where you live, but there should be no problem ordering the mold.
Mike
I have been following this thread, and have some interest in it as well. I have the opportunity to pick up a nice rook rifle that has been bore out to .410, like so many others.
Does anyone know if there are gunsmiths in the US that specialize in relining rook rifles to original calibers? I would guess gunsmiths familiar with these obsolete calibers are few and far between.
thanks for that mike, will definitely have a look at those mold's and see if anyone in Aus has any reloading gear.
This has all been very helpful everyone and gives me a bit more to go off when I go for an inspection. fortunately, the Auction only gives each gun a quick look over and do not clean the barrels which makes it possible the bores are in better condition than described. hopefully!
regards Rhys
Flintfan,
I suspect Redman can help you. Failing that, if you look in the back of "Rifle"magazine, in the adverts.,you should find a couple outfits that can do this work.A 38 S&W Special barrel could be "short chambered" to .360#5, or a .312-.313" barrel could be chambered to 32 S&W long,for a good version of .320.
Mike
Rhys95,
You must remember that on double rifles each barrel was bored rifled and chambered before the barrels were joined and regulated. What you are proposing may be possible but it will require an enormous amount of luck to get both barrels to shoot anywhere near the same point of aim.
Soldering in liners may also be detrimental in that you could loosen the ribs and perhaps even the barrels. Epoxy would be the best way of fixing them in place. Drilling and Reaming out the original barrels is no job for an amateur as they diverge and would require extensive setting up operations for a machinist to do the work. Having it done by a gunsmith would not be cheap. Sorry to put up a raincloud over your idea, but it isn't at all an easy job for anyone to do.
I'd go along with the suggestions of Lagopus (above). Relining the barrels would devalue the rifle and cost you a lot to do it. It's simply not worth it. Finally Rook and Rabbit rifles were all low powered, and therefore low velocity. When rook shooting the young birds (called 'Branchers') were shot off the tree branches upwards of 80-120 feet off the ground a miss would result in the bullet slowing down rapidly and reducing potential injury to people and livestock in the vicinity, A lot of this shooting was done in village churchyards where Rooks frequently nested, so it was a potentially dangerous form of shooting.
Harry
how about having the barrels laped and clean up the rifling then work a load with cast lead bullets that can be sized to the proper size. the gun at best is for shots inside 100 meters. I done this on a sauer 1893 back action hammer sxs rifle and the results where excellent. it would be a shame to alter that little rook gun in any fashion. a lot of us would love to have such a gun.
It may be worth your while to source a book called The Classic British Rook & Rabbit Rifle by Colin Greenwood written in 2006. ISBN-10 1 86126 880 7 or ISBN-13 978 1 86126 880 8 It has lots of information and details regarding loading. Lagopus.....
Rhys95
Brian Bateman is a consummate craftsman that specialises in relining rook rifles. He can be contacted at:
63 Price Street,
Birmingham
B4 6JZ
Tel 0121 359 1680
You may try Jim at Delta Gun Shop. He can reline and possible recut the rifling. I'd reline at last resort and 0.366" (9.3mm) liners are available. I relined a H&H rook rifle a few years ago as it was bored out to .410. I returned it back to .360 No.5 - are you sure this 380 is not a .360 No. 5? many times this designation is interchangeable, but really the same.
A 38 long colt is about 1/16" longer than a 360 No.5 (or 380), other than that identical.
Paper Patch a .358 Lyman bullet (2 wraps = 0.366") over 13gr. of 2F BP or 3-4gr Unique for a smokeless load.
Keep us posted.
I haven't actually seen the gun In person but the caliber has been measured at .380 with no specific cartridge mentioned. Now knowing the complexity of relining a double rifle I don't think I would bother bidding if the bores weren't in usable condition. There's a Hollis rook rifle on a martini action that Ill have a look at also which would be perfect for relining job.
I will report back after the inspection
Rhys95,
If you are "bound and determined" to reline one, the Hollis martini would be much easier,cheaper, and would't mess up a good double.
Mike
I fully agree with the last comment. It would also be a more accurate proposition. Don't discount the double if it comes cheap enough though as they are very scarce. Lagopus.....
Unfortunately the gun was not not in very good condition which was very disappointing. very loose action, the wrist of the stock was cracked all the way through, non original and poorly matched fore end, terrible bores with deep gouges and pits, damaged screws and badly repaired parts were the main faults.
Underneath its rough appearance you could still see it would have been a higher quality rifle 100 years ago and i will keep my eyes open for something similar but in much better condition.
Thanks for your help everyone anyway!
Rhys
Rhys95,
Sorry, better luck next time. Maybe someone will take it on as a project and save it.
Mike