I just took a little two day trip with one of my sons to an area tech school to enroll him into a CNC machining program. He'll also be learning manual machining, so I'm hoping he'll eventually be able to help me set up a manual metal lathe that I inherited from my father many years ago.
I took the opportunity to visit several area gun shops to check for classic and antique doubles. At one of the stores I ran into several L C Smiths, most in good mechanical shape, but the receivers had actually been CHROMED, with the barrels worked over with cold blue. The crazy thing was that these guns were priced very high, as if they were 80% plus original condition. The shop owners actually considered the finishes to be a plus, rather than a detriment. When I attempted to explain the concepts of "original condition" and "restoration" they looked at me as if I was speaking a foreign language. According to my guide and cousin, those guns had been on the rack literally for years. What a shame.
Agreed that the look is hideous but the gun may not have actually been harmed. Most old doubles that appeared "chromed" are merely polished, case-hardened steel.
Think about it....anybody can cold blue a set of barrels (again, not necessarily harmfully...and lots of hobbyists can actually slow rust blue barrels in the basement or garage. But who has the capability or gumption to chrome plate a receiver, especially if they're going to cold blue the barrels?
Butchery, like beauty, is often in the eye of the beholder.
If they were not polished too much chrome plating could be removed and the gun returned to a decent state to recase color if desired. I have seen a few doubles which gave been nickel plated and a few with satin chrome. The satin chrome were sand blaster to create a mat finish which is like making a million pit on the gun.
The world is full of over polished guns and the best thing to do is just walk on by.
I just would like'em to be priced realistically so I could buy'em.
What percentage would you rate a gun that has had its receiver stripped and polished? 15%? 5%? It has to greatly detract from book value, doesn't it?
I would buy and recase color these guns if they weren't priced so high..
Ken, take a good look at the locks, if it was chrome or nickeled you might see where some of the plating is lifting, and as stated some of the case colors by now are worn and the metal now has a satin look to it.
This is a 1927 FW Ideal Grade L.C. Smith that is nickel plated. I do believe it was factory done as the engraving is vey sharp and not filled in.
With some of these gun manufactures, you can never say never.
Ken,
You don't have to wait for your son, to set your lathe up.In any city there will be some type machine or gunshop with a lathe, the owner of which will likely help you out. In the country, a lot of farmers and others have lathes and may help you.Failing that, good books on the subject are pretty cheap and can get you started. Just start making chips.
Mike
Ken, the best book on the subject is "How to run a lathe" by South Bend, This has appeared over several decades and pick one that is closest to the year of your lathe. Even if you don't have a South Bend it will tell you everything you need to set it up and turn, mill, taper, thread, bore.
It is perhaps the best "how to" book I've seen on any subject.
Enjoy the lathe!
Note added in edit: The book is a paperback and quite cheap - new or used.
I think maybe someone is responding to the wrong thread?
Anyway... I am just glad that I was not to blame for any of that "butchery" this time. I have polished a few actions bright. I think it is better than pitted or rusty metal. If there is patina then great it can stay, but I cannot live with corrosion. Until I either learn to case harden or a suitable alternative presents itself polishing is all some of us can do.
I just got a 20 gauge LC and the action was polished but the sideplates were blued. Now that was butchery. I don't think I had my coat off yet when I got it home before I took the polishing compound to it.
CHAZ
Ken, as Gnomon has stated there are good books out there. If you are fortunate to own a South Bend, good for you. Fantastic lathe no matter how small.
After buying a book, and the South Bend one will most likely show you the different tool bits and how to grind them. The next thing besides tool bits is a good magnetic based dial indicator especially if you use a four jaw chuck. You will use this for many things, but the first thing is you want to check if the chuck has any run-out. A .001 or so is ok.
I have run lathes where you sat on the carriage and rode it along with the compound to a 9" one I use now in my basement. They all run the same.
If you don't have the booklet for it,. I'm sure you can find one online. Most compounds are set-up that 1 line is .002 off the O.D., some if you are very lucky will be 1 line is .001 off O.D. but you don't see these much.
Good luck and like stated, make chips, wear safety glasses and roll your sleeves up, and take off any rings.
Ken, as Gnomon has stated there are good books out there. If you are fortunate to own a South Bend, good for you. Fantastic lathe no matter how small.
After buying a book, and the South Bend one will most likely show you the different tool bits and how to grind them. The next thing besides tool bits is a good magnetic based dial indicator especially if you use a four jaw chuck. You will use this for many things, but the first thing is you want to check if the chuck has any run-out. A .001 or so is ok.
I have run lathes where you sat on the carriage and rode it along with the compound to a 9" one I use now in my basement. They all run the same.
If you don't have the booklet for it,. I'm sure you can find one online. Most compounds are set-up that 1 line is .002 off the O.D., some if you are very lucky will be 1 line is .001 off O.D. but you don't see these much.
Good luck and like stated, make chips, wear safety glasses and roll your sleeves up, and take off any rings.
And also (1) If you wear a tie, make sure it is a clip-on with a quick release (2) Never ever leave the chuck jaw wrench in place and walk away- always remove it and set it aside and (3) Never leave a file across the ways of any lathe-- I have a Soutn bend with a 8" swing, 3 jaw chuck and a 30" bed- compund gearing, like the bigger LeBlonds I learned on in my late grandfathers tool & die shop "back in the day"--
mind your hair/beard too, if your an old hippie like myself
franc
I'm pretty sure that the two guns I saw were plated, not merely polished. I run into both polished and blued receivers on LC's fairly often.
Thanks for the lathe advice and encouragement. My father bought this lathe probably 30 years ago and never set it up. It was an antique then, so you can imagine what it looks like. It's fairly small, it would easily mount on a dresser top, and the motor is external with a v-belt going to the lathe. I just have to take the time to set it up.
Room around the lathe, good light, no nearby distractions and no loud music or radio when you are starting out. Things happen fast on a lathe if you are not paying attention. Also the sound of the lathe will tell you a lot about how what you are turning is doing. When you are learning a good stock of "soft" metal is great to learn with. I love turning brass stock but aluminum is often cheap to play with. Some of the stainless steels are a pain to turn at first.
Ebay use to be a good place to buy scrap metal stock but now I buy more local stuff. When I go back east I look at my fathers machine shop scarp bin and take what I need or think I need. I pay the scrap metal price for it so no one thinks I am just taking the cream of the scrap. All his employees can buy surplus or scrap metal at the scrap price if the ask. A metal lathe can be addictive so be careful.
I'm fortunate to live only around ten minutes from the area scrap yard. I've got a pretty good relationship with them, I always make sure I pay a little over market whenever I scrounge up materials for one of my projects..
Atlas made a small bench lathe for many years & it used to be sold by Sears. They also published a very good basic instruction book, probably the equal of the South bend one as I recall. Either the Atlas or the small South Bends are good home lathes, but if any one thinks they are "Fine" they've never run a Monarch or Hardinge etc. I have a South Bend myself at home.
Since everyone is giving advice, I'll add this.When learning, the hardest but most important thing to master is to center the cutting tool on the work.I tried a lot of methods until an old machinist told me to pinch a scale(or other slip of metal) between the tool and the work.If it is vertical,the tool is centered;if it leans away at the top,tool too high;if it leans away at the bottom, tool too low.I always reccomend learning on an Atlas(if avaliable)because they are simple and easy to make tooling for, also parts are cheap.This doesn't take away from the others(I also have Clausing,South Bend,and Logan).The Atlas book is great as 2-piper said,it includes very helpful charts and tables,as well as instructions.
Mike
Atlas made a small bench lathe for many years & it used to be sold by Sears. They also published a very good basic instruction book, probably the equal of the South bend one as I recall. Either the Atlas or the small South Bends are good home lathes, but if any one thinks they are "Fine" they've never run a Monarch or Hardinge etc. I have a South Bend myself at home.
Yes indeed. The Atlas book is more extensive than the SB and has lots of tables and thread info that are not in the SB book.
Ahh...A Hardinge. My are those sweet!
If you mount your lathe on a wooden bench make it as sturdy as possible - it's essential to get the lathe absolutely level with no twist in the bed.
I have the Atlas book, the one copyrighted in 1937. It's the "Manual of Lathe Operation and Machinist's Tables".
My lathe is similar to this one.
http://www.rolandandcaroline.co.uk/lathe/lathe1.jpg
Ken61,
That is an interesting looking antique lathe.I think it would be fun to play with.Do you have an of the "set up" for it, especially "change gears"?The book you have will be very helpful, but I believe your lathe is older.After a second look, this lathe wouldn't take change gears, or chase threads.
Mike
Neat lathe! It is a nice restoration project. Unfortunately it's not a screw cutting lathe and has no power feed. The knob on the right of the lead screw is used to advance the carriage.
Is there a maker's name on the lathe?
No, No, that's NOT a picture of my lathe, only a picture of one that's similar. I'll have to unpack mine and see if it is marked. Mine has the multiple pulley set up on the end, you change speed by moving the v-belt to different pulley combinations on the lathe and motor, similar to what I have to do on my large drill press..I'll try and post actual pictures of my lathe when I unpack it..
Strange thing is, there is original color case on the watertable, and the flat of the forend iron.
Thanks.
I'll vote for highly polished. Is that wire wheel marks on the fore end iron? The "L C SMITH" engraving looks like it was wheel buffed to me as well. I'm also interested in what the real experts and collectors think... Nice candidate for restoration, though..
I'd say polished/buffed. holes look dished and side lock edges are slightly rounded. Axles of hammer and sear are also buffed.
Plus, I think, while possible, it would be pretty difficult to plate one surface while leaving the action flats untouched.
Not the end of the world as far a "butchery" goes. Just shoot it or send it in for new colors IMHO.
It's an LC Field grade. What sold me though is the fact that it is a Longrange. 32"bbls. .730 bores in both tubes with no pitting. 4" of choke constriction ending in full both barrels. The barrels are sound and I was hoping the receiver could be fixed. How does one go about removing the high polish look?
Buffed up original surface I'd guess.
The top lever looks about ready to pop free of the mack spring they use inside as a lever return spring.
Let the lever back to the locked position and tap it back down in place from the top side with a non-maring hammer,,or even the plastic head of a big screw driver.
Then on the bottom of the action, you'll probably see the small top-lever pivot screw backed out of the trigger plate a few turns.
To get at the screw, you'll most likely have to take the guard screws out,,free the guard tang and unscrew the trigger guard 1/4 turn so the bow is out of the way.
Then tighten the top lever pivot screw backup.
Make sure it's tight but not too tight that it's jams the top lever. It's supposed to fit w/a shoulder so that doesn't happen but that doesn't always come about in a perfect world.
If the top lever works it's way upwards a bit more, it'll disengage from the top lever spring w/a healthy 'snap'. Then you'll have to take the trigger plate off and do that reassemble job that everyone talks about.
Actually not hard to do w/a pin punch and a screw driver w/a slot in the end as the factory did. Just takes a little thought, about 5 seconds with no reason to fear the heavy spring.
Getting rid of the polished look is easy,,getting rid of the rounded edges and blurred lines, lettering and holes is a little tougher. The latter is a quality polishing job to square things back up.
I'd suggest annealing the metal first before doing any of that polishing and case color work.
The high shine will disappear with it and you can put back any gloss you want. A 400grit would be more than plenty for a LCS Field grade.
Touch up the lettering when done.
It'll be ready for a new case color at that time.
Just my thoughts.
Talk to Turnbull Manufacturing.(turnbullmfg.com) about a recase and a a recut on the lettering. I have seen his recase work and don't believe anybody could do any better; maybe match it, but not better it. But I'm a rank amateur.
If it were mine in that condition, I'd send it in to John Gillette at Classic Guns for case colors since it's a long range. Depending on who you ask, you may not even need to anneal it first in it's current state. They can nitre the forend iron also.
