Did any of the above companies forge their own actions?
Was there a such a thing as, a Purdey's blast furnace.

I doubt that the actual amount of steel they used would warrant such an operation.

In their hayday Purdey was finishing 300-400 a year, average 5 lbs of steel on a finished gun . Suppose they left 2/3 of the amount of the forgings on the shop floor, that would be about 6000 lbs a year, hardly worth a blast furnace and hammers.

Lowell,
I don't know the history of these companies, probably DT can tell us something of it, but I can tell you that "hand forgings" were invented just for this type of low production manufacturing.

A "hand forging" is one that is done without a pre-contoured die to shape the part. The idea of getting the benefit of idealized grain flow is still a goal as with die forging.

"hand forgings" are still done today for short run jobs. Nearly all are done on powered hammer machines while the operator manipulates the red hot material with tongs and either operates the hammer with a foot pedal or another person operates the hammer machine. However, as the name implies, it was and probably still is done in some places, with a real hammer. I'm guessing if Purdey or the other biggies did their own forgings, they made hand forgings.

Probably preferred to keep the smokestack end of it at a distance--such as the distance to Birminghm. Every knife and blade maker has a power hammer these days; most hobbyists are probably better equipped than Purdey.

jack

Chuck,Correct about the Purdey"Hand Forgings" I have quite a selection of forgings from 'Back Then". Top Levers,Trigger Guards,Pairs of 'Luggers", Forend 'Tip" forgings,Trigger-Plate,I did have a Pair of Sidelock, Sideplates, Peter Nelson would be the Person to give all the 'Real Gen' Or The Write Hon. Jack Rowe.Gunmaker Extrordinaire. He is 'Still' a Leadville Matchless Mine of Gunmaking Information...I am, at this time Filing-up a Top-Lever for a 'London' 20b dbbl that I am building.Theres a pile of 'filings' back of the vise,'Like you Read about'!! Talk about Old World Craftsmanship!!!'Nuts',This is a Young Mans Job!Pushing a'Bastard across' a Hand-Forging is a 'Six greenie pack' job...CC/dt

A good many of the forgings were made at a company called Hughes & Johnson in Oldbury West Midlands, a horse and cart journey from the Birmingham gun quarter.My Grandad and Uncle used to work there, Grandad was the foreman forger (hands on working).They used to do a lot for Skimmin who supplied the trade.I remember as a young boy having a soapbox cart with forged axles and Akerman steering.

Not having a background in metalworking, I had to ask.
Bring in the raw stock, or the big boys doin' it all for themselves.

this brings up a question I have always had. I have seen pictures of a couple of guysin the DGJ holding a very nice side lock double and the caption would say that they had made the entire gun, beginning with forging the action themselves. As a gunmaker and bladesmith, I always wondered what type of steel did they start out with and how did they go about forging out the action?

Far as I can determine, no gunmaker grew his own trees for stocks, mined his own iron ore for steel, or smelted steel for himself. While it is entirely possible to do small part forging by hand, per Chuck, I doubt that it was done other than for Master training. It makes no economic sense to do in-house forging when out-house specialists are available who can do it probably better and certainly cheaper. The raw action forging doesn't have a big impact on final quality unless it is actually defective and the Brit skill in forging had long passed the point where trade made defective action forgings were likely.

Keep in mind that there was a trade willing and able to supply parts at any state of finish - raw forgings to finished guns. Locks and semi-finished barrels were often bought in, too. For any given shop at any given time, it depended on who was employed in-house and what the order books looked like. Per the success of William Evans, it was far more important that the shop owner enforce high standards for quality and service rather than make guns.

Further, note that the steel used in most gun parts was plain low carbon; springs, for example, excepted. It was easy to work and sufficiently strong for the pressures encountered. When case hardened, it was also quite wear resistant and relatively resistant to corrosion. There were basically no propriatary alloys - steel was steel. The skill lay in close fit of parts all the way through the mechanism and in finish. BTW, IMO, the skill of styling is no small part of high quality work.

Elton John (rocket man)-

The guys i read about were individual gunmakers who went out on their own. When reading about them I was quite sure I knew their reasoning for doing it all from scratch themselves. It is the same reason I do what I do when building a gun-to show off and prove what you can do. Like when I am working on these rifles to get in the Guild next year-even the Guild acknowledges that during the normal course of busienss you would typically buy items and fit them, but for your "show rifles" you need to show what you can do and make it from scratch.

I was very sure this is why those guys did it, but I was wondering what they started with and what they were trying to accomplish with the forging-the final rough shape if you will. I have spent a fair amount of time standing in "the dragon's breath" and have myself forged things that would have been easier for me to electrically weld.

There was an interesting thread on the Lefever forum recently. It was about the strange marks found on some Lefever barrels. Well, we were able to identify some as barrel makers from Belgium. A few are known to be American barrel makers. There is also a couple of marks that may turn out to be British. We know that he was buying barrels from Krupp. So can we ask for any more variation in a product?

What I find interesting is the variation. How one "maker" at a particular place and time followed a particular supply chain, while his neighbor / competitor found another solution.

I have no doubt some "makers" did their own receiver forging, hand forged their own barrels and shaped their own stocks. I have no doubt that some purchased semi-finished parts from specialist companies. I am sure that some made nothing at all but had their name stamped on the final product.

So often we find ourselves talking in absolutes. We all know well that there were all the shades of gray imaginable.

Lowell's original question was about 4 companies. I know that there were rolling mills and foundries in abundance. That makers could purchase steel stock, semi-finished parts or completed parts. The guilds were strong and active. So there was no lack of talent and labor. This talent was international and their work output crossed easily from country to country. I do not know which supply chain at what time any of these 4 companies followed. While they may open their books full of serial numbers and owners, I doubt many of them would ever share their accounts receivables records. Imagine the horror of non-proprietary hands using a bastard file on a sear!

Pete

I think deep down, there's a rooting section for the London gun to have been made in er-er-er......FRANCE!

MS - I expect the guys you speak of did it just to prove they could; to themselves and the world. If they were becoming Masters, they have need of understanding the process all the way. The technology required to forge an action isn't all that difficult. The skill needed is considerable. The higher the forging skill, the less machining required make a working action.

Just a note, I recall that a 3# set of damascus barrels started life as 18# of steel and iron. That is a pretty serious amount of excess metal to be removed. Also, I recall the in Charles Lancaster's (the original guy of barrel making fame) day, barrel makers sat at a very large wet grinding wheel and ground down the exterior of the barrels by hand. They died young of silicosis, too.

If you want to see an excellent documentary on hand forging guns see if you can find a copy of The Gunsmith of Williamsburg. It was a tape produced in, I believe, the late 60s of Wallace Gusler making a flint lock rifle at the shop in Colonial Williamsburg. He actually starts with a skelp sp? and forges out the barrel around a mandrel. It was a long time ago, Mr. Gusler looks to be in his 20s. Very interesting to watch. Best Regards, Jack

LG - while I'm not "rootin'" for any gunt to have been made anywhere or by anyone in particular, I'd not be at all dismayed to find it was made in France. There is a very fine gunmaking tradition there and very fine materials. Once the French learned to make steel, about 75-100 years after the Brits, they made good stuff. They grew some awesome trees, too. Oh, and they grew some craftsmen of the first stripe. Style and design are the issues, not workmanship or materials.

Qu'est-ce que c'est? A traitor in the gun room you say, Mon Dieu!

Pete