I would like to know how early century pigeon shoots were set up. I understand there was a 30 yd circle and a shooter and thrower but after that my information is quite vague. There was a thread on the forum but I think it is beyond a year and I can not access it.

LIVE BIRD RULES

The Art of Wing Shooting: A Practical Treatise on the Use of the Shotgun
William Bruce Leffingwell. 1895
http://books.google.com/books?id=e34EmE3tkfkC
Rules for Live Bird Shooting
http://books.google.com/books?id=e34EmE3tkfkC&pg=PA178&output=text
Notting Hill Boundary 65 yd
Hurlingham Boundary 90 yd

Advice from Capt. Money and others
http://docs.google.com/a/damascusknowled...sK3c2To/preview

INANIMATE TARGET RULES

1st "E.C." Cup 1896
The match at that time consisted of 100 targets, unknown angles, from known traps; 100 targets, unknown traps and known angles (commonly called expert rules - At expert rules, one man up in the centre of five traps, pulled unknown, according to an indicator); and 50 pair of doubles.

2nd "E.C." Cup August 20, 1896, the conditions being 150 targets; 50 single targets, 16 yards rise, unknown angles; 50 single targets, expert rules; and 25 pair doubles, 14 yards rise.

The Interstate Association’s First Annual GAH at Targets June 1900
http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1900/VOL_35_NO_14/SL3514012.pdf
"The traps were placed inside the live bird grounds, Nos. 2 and 3 being used. At No. 1 score a Magautrap was placed, at No. 2 a set of three expert traps, on the Sergeant system; at No. 3 a Magautrap; at No. 4 a set of five expert traps, throwing unknown angles. Nos. 1, 2 and 3 were arranged on the flat, or underground plan, without an inch of screen in the way. No. 4, the five expert trap set, had a low screen, and the shooting platform was almost on a level with the top of it.
At the first three sets the targets were seen almost from the moment they left the traps, coming, as they did, directly out of the ground. This gave a quick sight, but to many men a deceptive one, as they were inclined to fire too quickly, often undershooting. Blue Rock targets were used, and a good, fair flight was thrown at a uniform speed and angle. Owing to the four different sets of traps, each with a different background, the scores were not high."

This was the thread with the rules of Raimey and some pictures of me:

Live pigeon shooting

the pics:





Gunwolf

Have to love that guy's hat!...Geo

Gunwolf, unfortunately I do not speak or read German. Any option for a translation?

Tamid, sorry! For the moment I don't have enough time, maybe Humpty Dumpty would be so kind to translate a bit....? He did a great job last time with the translation of an article of Max Ern about Belgian Double Rifles!

Best Regards,
Gunwolf

I'm sure Reverend Drew Hause would agree that various match shoots in the early days had rules agreed upon by the participants or sponsors. In Pennsylvania there were two regions with two very different sets of rules, even though the shoots may have been as little as twenty miles apart. The Northeast region shot one shot, low gun, at "handled birds" and short ranges, sometimes 17 yards. The Southern region shot what we know today as standard two shot European style shoots at largely unhandled birds with shooting positions changed on the "slide" as the shooter killed a set number of birds in a row. Remember, in the early days, at least in PA, match shoots were the norm, shoots participated in by the public were the exception. In other parts of the country, public shoots were more common.

Drew's long post refers to clay targets, although his research has plenty of live pigeon information.

Good pics, Gunwolf.

If you look closely you can see the pigeon that has just exited the center trap, in the second pic, as a blur about two feet above the trap. Also, note that Gunwolf has moved to the 24 yd. position, meaning he has run two rings, of five birds each, and has moved back twice.

Interesting info, Bill, about the two sets of rules in Pennsylvania. Rings here use the second set, or European, rules. Isn't that the most widespread now?

SRH

If you know the right guys box birds are still shot here. I happen to know of several within a 100 miles. They always avoid the press and the cost is very high.

bill

Sorry for my poor english - that's not me on the pictures! :-))
Neither with the gun nor with the "Newspaper" hat... ;-)

Gunwolf

Fair enough Gunwolf, I wouldn't admit to that hat either.
Cheers...

I think the guy's hat is nicely accented by his footwear!

Indeed, he's in real leisure dress…!!

Gunwolf

Look at the current ZZ bird ring rules except for the cartridges used. They are pretty closely follow current box bird rules.

Stan, yes, the two shot European system is the one in use today, just about everywhere. The last shoot I am aware of using the one shot, low gun rules was one event at the Hegins, PA Labor Day Shoot. This shoot closed down several years ago, but will always be a part of pigeon shooting history. My garden shed is about full of the old hand pulled traps from the Hegins rings. The one shot event at Hegins was really something to see. The two shot fields were full of Perazzis, Brownings, Krieghoffs, and high grade side by sides. The one shot field, alone and nearest to the residences of Hegins, was populated by Model 12s, Model 97s, single barrel hardware store guns, mixed in with the guns of more affluent shooters. It was an experience, shooting that field with a street full of houses, exposed on the back side, not much more than 150 yards from the ring.

That's interesting stuff, Bill. Thanks. Those times won't be coming back, I'm afraid.

We've got a flyer shoot coming up near me next month. Usually attracts the like of Cooley, Mein, McGuire, etc. Fun weekend. It's the one that the PETA idiots tried to fly the drone with the camera over a couple years ago. Their plan, however, was shot down ......... literally.

SRH

They shot the whirly bird at Wing Pointe a while back also. We have our own local shoot here, just an hour from my house. Not as much activity in PA as there once was, however.

I think, the guy in the first picture shoots with a SxS, what do you mean?

Gunwolf

Eightbore, you have a PM.

I read something about a rule that was created in the early 1900s that limits gun weight to a maximum of eight pounds. Is that still a rule?

I would like to know how early century pigeon shoots were set up. I understand there was a 30 yd circle and a shooter and thrower but after that my information is quite vague. There was a thread on the forum but I think it is beyond a year and I can not access it.

I do believe the Pigeon/Live Bird game originated in Great Britain during the percussion era. Charles Lancaster used a percussion tube lock percussion system and his personal gun was sold here in the USA in the past year or so. THere is a photo of this rifle on one like it in Donald Dallas book 'The British Sporting Gun and Rifle' p.54. stating "4 bore tubelock live pigeon percussion gun no. 1675 of 1849... ...". The game started off as a single barrel game and transitioned into the double gun game. These single and later double guns of the percussion era are noticeable by the 'lack' of a ramrod provision. I am fortunate enough to own a wonderful Thomas Turner percussion 4 bore single pigeon gun (8 pounds - these are definitely not Punt guns!) with an amazing 30" damascus barrel pattern. No choke, but it will cover pattern beautifully at 30 yds using a square load of 5drams of BP and 2oz shot.
The original ring was oval in shape with 5 traps in the center spaced apart, the bird could come out in any 360 degree direction. The best birds (hardest to kill) were Blue Rock Pigeons from the cost of the Jersey Islands in GB, I believe. This 'Blue Rock' name continues today with clay target/pigeons.
Further reading in the book states the 'Winner of the London Field Gun Trials in 1858 and 1859' written by J. Walsh (Stonehenge) ... and it mentions the trials were held at the "Hornsey House, live pigeon venue... ... where the breech-loader emerged as EQUAL to the muzzle-loader..."
Rick

Here you go Mike. Live Bird and Inanimate Target shooters commonly used 'Boots'

1894 Chas. Godfrey New York courtesy of Dave Noreen



http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1898/VOL_30_NO_24/SL3024020.pdf
John L. Lequin. secretary of the Interstate Association, writes us under date of Feb. 25 1898 as follows:
"We have received inquiries from most all directions recently from a number of shooters who are probably desirous of entering the Grand American Handicap next month, concerning the weight of guns, and whether the handhold and recoil pad will be counted as a part of the gun when weighed. The subject has been placed before the Tournament Committee of the association, which committee has decided that the guns will be weighed naked.
Kindly note, and make this public through your paper at your earliest opportunity and greatly oblige."

The Baker Gun Quarterly, Volume 5, No. 3, May 1900 had an article on the weight of Trap/Pigeon guns used by Capt. A.W. Money (8 pounds - Money used a Greener, Smith, and Parker), C.W. Budd (7 pounds 14 ounce Parker), H.D. Bates (7 pounds 13 ounces), R.O. Heikes (7 pounds 15 ounce Parker but after the GAH at Live Birds he went back to his Remington hammerless and won the 1st GAH at Targets), J.S. Fanning (7 pounds 15 ounce Smith), W.R. Crosby (7 pounds 12 ounce Baker), and Col. A.G. Courtney (7 pounds 14 ounce Remington CEO).

Woolfolk Henderson won the 1914 GAH with a 98x100 from 22 yards, the Amateur Championship of U.S. with a 99x100 from 16 yds, and the Amateur Doubles Championship of the U.S. with 90x100 from 16 yds. Shown here wearing a glove on his left hand and a boot on his Parker



Rolla Heikes patented a 'Hand Protector' in 1889

There is no weight rule enforced today in flyer shooting, Mike. There are a few rules for the guns and ammo. Main thing is that ammunition is limited to shot size no larger than 7 1/2, and a max payload of 1 1/4 oz. Seems to be sort of split between 7 1/2s and 8s, with many shooters using 8s in the first barrel and 7 1/2s in the second, particularly at the 22 yard line. Some go to two loads of 7 1/2s after running a couple of rings straight and having to move back. There have been a few very successful pigeon shooters that would even use 9s on the first shot. Plated shot is common, in the belief (or, with the proof) that it improves patterns. As far as weight goes, IMO there must be a balance between having enough weight to handle the 1 1/4 oz. loads and being able to get off a quick second shot, and how quick the gun moves to the bird for you. I've never seen a highly successful flyer shooter that used a straight gripped buttstock. Not saying there aren't any, I am just not aware of them. Pistol grips help handle recoil much better for most people, so that the bird is acquired quickly for the second shot, which is crucial.

No rules on chokes, action types, barrel length, etc.

SRH

As some of you may know, Live Pigeon Shooting was Olympic for one time:
Paris 1900, 300 Doves fall from the sky. The one and only Olympic Champion was
Leon de Lunden from Belgium who shot 21 with only 2 failed!

I found a story about the contest in Monte Carlo about 1910 and there is said (sorry, own translation in poor english):

It's not too difficult to hit the doves, but the real problem is, you have to hit them fast, because they have to fall down within the correct zone. If not, the shot doesn't count.

There were about 250 participiants who paid 300 Francs = 75,000 Franc - the winner gets 25,000 in cash plus an object of about 10,000. The second gets 30%, the third 25% and so on. But the main attraction for the visitors is making some bets.

The winner and the second usual made an agreement on their prizes and shared it with each other. Only for the prize of honour they finally compete.

there is a reprint of a book about (I don't know it yet):

Live Trap Pigeon And Glass Ball Shooting


Michael Yardley also wrote one: "CLAY SHOOTING: A HISTORY"

Of course there were also women involved:

Monte Carlo:



and on the Olympics with hand protectors:



It was a great time for shooting in those days, I think!

Gunwolf

Live Bird shooting was a non-Olympic 'demonstration' event, once and only, at the 1900 Olympics. A prize purse of 20,000 Francs was awarded to the winners, though the top four finishers agreed to split the winnings.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_at_the_1900_Summer_Olympics

Later image of the Gold Medal winner, Léon de Lunden of Belgium, who won 5000 francs (about $20,000 at the time!!)




Inanimate Targets were used at the 1912 Stockholm Olympics, and the U.S. team took the Gold Medal:
Charles W. Billings, Ralph Lewis Spotts, John H. Hendrickson, James R. Graham (on 3rd station), Edward Francis Gleason, and Frank Hall



The individual Gold was by Jay Graham, using a Remington PUMP (oh the shame!! )

Inanimate - not alive…!!!!! you can do that with a pump! ;-)

Gunwolf

Stan and Drew thank you for answering all my questions.

Was it customary for some of the male participants to wear dresses?

"An Afternoon At Wormwood Scrubs", A.B. Frost in "The Illustrated Sporting and Dramatic News" April 6, 1878.

Well, and this is the Champion himself, Léon de Lunden from belgium:



They shot clays also at Paris, this are the winners, from left:
Roger de Barbarin, René Gyot and Justinien Clary from France:



Gunwolf

I don't recall where I read it, the National Championships in KCMO around the turn of the century there were so many entrants they had to have preliminary shoots with sparrows to make the championship rounds. Mark

Jan. 16, 1897 Sporting Life
http://library.la84.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1897/VOL_28_NO_17/SL2817018.pdf

Phil Daly Jr. writes us that there will be live bird shooting on the new grounds at Elkwood Park. Long Branch. N. J. every Saturday. In a few weeks Daly expects to have the three sets of traps in operation and will throw the grounds open to the public. Live crows will be shot on one set, live blackbirds on another and live pigeons on the third. There will be a main event at 25 live pigeons. $25 entrance, handicap from 25 to 33 yards, with good added money.

"Sparrow" Young got his handle shooting...sparrows
Bats were also used.

The one old gal in the picture seems to have a rare 12" Heikes hand protector. I've seen a few of the standard ones, but never a 12" version. How did they ever get enough crows for a shoot?

Bill,

Were the Heikes hand protectors developed or marketed by Rolla Heikes?

SRH

Yup, he's the guy.

I guess this "old gal" would have shown some of us up with her gun….. ;-)

Gunwolf

In 1900 they got them from the streets of Paris and so did some good at the same time…!
Doves often are called "rats of the air" and nobody missed some hundred!

Gunwolf

I've tried shooting bats before....(not out of a box of course)....that's crazy!

The barrels of the "old gal" seem to have 80 cm!? (assumed both others are 71 cm)

Gunwolf

If gamebirds flew like bats no one would ever kill one.
CHAZ

Just for clarity on 'gunwolf's' remark on dove being referred to as 'flying rats', feral pigeons here in the US are rock doves as are most pigeons in the greater European cities, but most of the shooting here was done w/passenger pigeons back in the time of those fist Grand American shoots. The last known passenger pigeon died in 1920 at the Cicinnati, Ohio zoo. And I'd posit that their demise to extinction was due soley to the clearing of their mast or nesting habitat [timber] in the Ohio valley & other parts of New England and did not have anything at all to do with shooting, even though they were taken in large numbers. The 'shot to extinction' myth is revisionist history at its best. It is an important point.

Snipe fly a lot like bats for the first 20 yrds. of so and they are VERY difficult to hit or at least they are for me. I have not ever shot any bats althogh I have netted and banded quite a number.

What tw says. In addition, market "hunters" at night simply knocked the birds out of the trees by the thousands or netted roosts. Shooting them would have been a way expensive method of gathering and cut heavy into the profit.

Shooters proper probably took a decimal of a percent
comparatively.

I've always wondered what compels "sportsmen" to shoot things like bats and swallows. But then, just killin' stuff always feels great, dunnit?

have a day

Dr.WtS

More weights

http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1895/VOL_24_NO_25/SL2425015.pdf

At the Riverton Handicap March 8, 1895 only one of the 15 competitors used an American made gun.

"It may be interesting to some to note the guns and loads used, and we give it below. It was a lamentable fact that of the 15 guns used only one American make was represented. This was a special pigeon gun of the Parker Brothers' manufacture, and was a beautiful weapon in every way, and was owned by Mr. Post, whose score of 93 on a hard lot of birds did not bow that the shooting power was lacking.

All the guns were 12 gauge, and it was noticeable that not a full pistol-grip stock was among the number, and most of them were the straight-grip "pigeon gun" model, nine being of this description, and six of the half-grip style. All were of the hammerless pattern excepting two; Mr. Welch and Mr. Robbins using hammerguns."

Following is the make of guns and loads used:

Capt. A.W. Money - Greener, 7 1/2 pounds.
George Work - Purdey, 7 1/2 pounds.
Post - Parker pigeon gun (AAH introduced in 1894)), 7 11-16 pounds.
Jim Jones - Scott, 7 3-16 pounds.
John B. Ellison - Scott, 7 1/4 pounds.
Fred Moore - Purdey, 7 7-16 pounds.
Leonard - Westley Richards, 7 1/2 pounds.
Mott - Crown grade Greener, 7 2-16 pounds.
J.S. Robbins - Greener hammer gun, 7 1/2 pounds.
R. Welch - Purdey hammer gun, 7 1/2 pounds.
Downing - Scott, 7 6-16 pounds.
J.K. Palmer – Francotte, 7 1/2 pounds.
Edwards - Scott Premier, 7 pounds.
J. Wolstencroft - Greener, 6 15-16 pounds.
Eckert - Scott Premier, 7 1/4 pounds.

Shells were 45 - 49 grains / 3 1/4 - 3 1/2 drams smokeless powder and 1 1/4 oz.

Capt. Money (2nd in the 1894 GAH) and George Work (3rd in the 1893 GAH) tied at 94 killed.

For the record my wife felt great about the bat I killed that had infiltrated the dock.

How it all get started in England 1822

:

and until today we say "pull" or "bird" shooting clays…:



Taubenschiessen in Germany in Heiligendamm was practiced from 1855 - 1897 with live pigeons:



and once more from the Olympic Games 1900, 25m Men, third place Murphy, USA
beeing a "Pro"!?





Gunwolf

http://library.la84.org/SportsLibrary/JOH/JOHv1n2/JOHv1n2d.pdf

There were two Live Pigeon Shooting events during the Universal Exposition of Paris in 1900. These are described in the Official Report, published shortly after the sporting events of the Exposition.

The first one was the “Grand Prix de Centenaire” held on 19 June (Tuesday) with the following prizes: 1st - 5,000 francs; 2nd - 2,500 francs; 3rd - 1,500 francs; and 4th - 1,000 francs.

There were 166 shooters in this event, “ce qui ne s’était jamais vu dans aucun contours tir aux pigeons.” The results of this event were as follows:
1. Donald MacKintosh, Australia - 22
2. Marquis de Villaviciosa, Spain - 21
3. Edgar Murphy, USA - 19
4. Baron de Tavernost, France - 14
Henri Journu, France - 14
M. A. Ginot, France – 14

Pedro Pidal y Bernaldo de Quirós, the first Marquis de Villaviciosa de Asturias, was a well-known European shooter of that period. He won at least five Spanish championships. Several months prior to the 1900 Olympics, using the pseudonym “O’Brien”, Pidal won the Grand Prix de Monte Carlo against Donald MacKintosh (AUS) and Crittenden Robinson (USA), among others in the field of 98 shooters in a Live Pigeon Shooting event.

The second Live Pigeon Shooting event in 1900 was the “Grand Prix de 1’Exposition Universalle de 1900” held on 25-27 June. The prizes were considerable: 1st - 20,000 francs; 2nd - 50%; 10,000 francs, 3rd - 30%; 6,000 francs, 4th - 20%, 4,000 francs.
“Le deuxième, le troisième, et la quatrième partageront dans la proportion suivante, les entrées du prix.”
This appears to have been the more important event and was likely the one considered to be of “Olympic standards.” In addition, most of the “Olympic” events carried the title of an event “…de l’Exposition. ”

There were 52 shooters who competed in this event, with the following results:
1. Léon de Lunden, Belgium - 21
2. Maurice Fauré, France - 20
3. Crittenden Robinson, USA - 18 tied Donald MacKintosh, Australia - 18
5. J. Pederzoli, Italy - 15
6. C. Béthune, France - 14
7. J. Banwell, Great Britain – 12


July 7, 1900 Sporting Life “Shooting In Paris”
http://library.la84.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1900/VOL_35_NO_16/SL3516012.pdf
"Crit" Robinson the Only American Among the Winners. Paris, June 28.
The finals in the pigeon shooting contests at the Cercle du Bois de Boulogne, for the Exposition grand prize, which began Monday, came off yesterday, the competition having narrowed down to 36. The results were as follows: Leon de Lunden, 21 out of 21, first; Maurice Faure, 20 out of 21 second; D. Mclntosh and C. Robinson, each 18 out of 19, tied for third.
M. de Lunden is a well-known Belgian shot. In the first round A. G. Spaulding was among those who missed. "Tod" Sloan and Messrs. Wadsworth and Rogers dropped out in the next two rounds, when only four competitors were left.
Mr. Robinson, a Californian, proposed dividing the whole stake of $6,000 (?francs) to which the others agreed. The match has been concluded.

Well I can tell you that in parts of PA the low gun single shot rules still live. Wooden traps are still used along with trap and handle pigeons which are rigged. This is much more difficult then jump box shooting. This is a 10 bird race and is often own with as few as 7. There are also still teams that pit one shooter against another and each team has their bird men who try to fly bird away on the opposition. The model 12 is still the most popular fun for this game.

Stumbled upon an interesting article in Gunsmagazine 1958:

Gunsmagazine p. 19

Gunwolf

This is a pretty good book on PA shoots. The whole book isn't about the shoots, more about the authors childhood, but what is there is pretty informative. I think Fair Chase had some copies also.
CHAZ
Pigeon Book

In the 1901 Grand American Handicap at live birds, held at Interstate Park on Long Island, Ansley H. Fox, shucking a Winchester Model 1897, was one of 22 men who went 25 pigeons straight. Actually Ansley was 68 straight as he hadn't missed a bird in any of the preliminary events that week. But, he then missed the first bird in the shoot off!!

The Canfield book is worth a read. It tells about the lifestyle of the Anthracite region in the late 1800s and early 1900s.

Even though the model 12 is most common for low gun rules we still frequently see Parker's and some O/U at the shoots.

And the occasional Model 37 Winchester.