Should the word "Classic" and "American gun" really ever be used in the same sentence together?
If you are into Grandma Moses, hey, go for it, but, the Mona Lisa came from elsewhere.
This comment was posted this on this thread in the "For Sale" section:
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=352786#Post352786Didn't want to hijack the thread so I started this one.
If you don't think that an O frame Parker sixteen gauge with 26" isn't a classic American bobwhite gun what can I say. And I own a little Parker AHE 20 with 26" barrels, 5-3/4 pounds, that was purpose made for Southern bobwhites. I also have a 5-3/4 pound Parker BHE that was ordered to be cylinder and modifed, the classic combination for hunting over pointing dogs. It is also barreled at 26".
How can a Fox HE not be a classic American gun? And an eight pound Winchester 21 with Beavertail forend and single trigger, as classic and American as a Harley Davidson Electra Glide.
Nothing personal Ted, just trying to stir some interest on a slow Sunday when I am sick at home.
And the Ithaca Super Ten? Another classic American gun!
To me, the word fits wonderfully for the American gun. My first thought is hardware store guns, not the iterations and embellishments. Of a standard, of a time. I think differently about them than any others of the genre.
Whatever this fella was holding in his left hand to keep the foxes out of the chicken coop; very likely one of the "agricultural nonentities" that kept his family alive during hard times
Let the condescension and patronizing superiority begin
If it was a going concern/company before 1940, and they made sxs shotguns, then their product would be an American Classic. End of story.
JR
Classic;
(1) Of the highest Class, Most representative of the excellence of its Kind.
(2) NA here, applies to the Arts.
(3) (Colloq) Famous as traditional or typical.
By definition 1 then only the highest graded guns by American makers could be called a Classic American Gun. By definition 3 a Trojan, Sterly, Field, etc or even a Crescent could be a Classic American Gun. A Purdey or a Darne would not make it on either account, simply because they are not American.
"Classic" should also include wholly-dependable function and honest value. As Mr. Roberts mentioned, before 1940 is a good demarcation.
Doesn't each company (and even model) have its own "golden era?" Frequently it is "pre-war" but not always. Pre-64 model 70, Philly Fox, Pre-Marlin LC Smith....
One of the LC Smith's built in the '70's by Marlin isn't an American Classic, but one built by Hunter in the mid 30's is, even though they could be hard for some to tell apart.
CHAZ
I guess we would be comparing the European gun industry to the American industry. Are the European guns mass produced and distributed to hardware stores to sit on shelves waiting for a buyer or does the European maker wait for someone to come into their “shop” to be measured and fitted for a specific gun that has yet to be built.
Applying the painting comparison, are the two ever comparable in a sense where one is, bland, generic and workmanlike where some people like it and others don’t and the other is the “Mona Lisa” where everyone from all over the world acknowledges it as a standard for all classic paintings.
If it was a going concern/company before 1940, and they made sxs shotguns, then their product would be an American Classic. End of story.
JR
Using Mr. Roberts definition, an "American Classic":
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=352807#Post352807It will be a classic at his house, not mine. I humbly submit that the overused term, "Classic" should mean more than just old.
I'm afraid the rest of it becomes a comparison of blondes or redheads which won't get us anywhere. However, for every Parker 16 in the dimensions quoted by our friend from Texas, the same concern built dozens of 12s with 30" full x full choke barrels, that had 3" of drop in the stock, and weighed in excess of 7 3/4 lbs. They were by no means alone, here in the US, in that endeavor, either.
It is difficult to find a gun with those same dimensions built anywhere on the other side of the pond. Because that style of shotgun isn't all that useful.
I'll bet our friend can proudly tug on his suspenders, and tell you how his Parker 16 is one of just a few built in that configuration, missing the true implication of that small number.
Classic is as classic does.
Best,
Ted
'Let the condescension and patronizing superiority begin'. Well Drew, I can understand your sentiment but it does not appear that has happened, at least not yet. Personally I am fond of AH Fox, Parker, Win 21's and Elsie's. But, I have to tell you I am more fond of English guns. And it seems one can pick up a nice English boxlock for less than one can most of the American 'classics' ESP the graded ones. Also, most of the English guns are 'graded' with superior engraving. In terms of sidelocks, there is no comparison in quality of LC locks to most English guns, specifically those with intercepting safety sears. Having said all that, I am very fond of my Win 21's which IMO are very fine guns and constitute the epitome of the American 'classic' at least to me. It's hard for me to argue with Ted on all of this.
Condition, configuration, or the name of the company has nothing to do with it. Davenports were actually quite decent guns.
English and European standards for usefulness do not apply here, when it's "American Classic" being considered. Seems you would understand that, Ted.
JR
Classic, adj.: 1)Of the highest rank or class. 2)Serving as an outstanding representative of its kind, model. 3)Having lasting significance or recognized worth.
The Davenport in the For Sale section would not fit here, but a Parker A-grade sure would. Is my Jeffrey waterfowler considered a classic British boxlock? Maybe, maybe not.
'Let the condescension and patronizing superiority begin'. Well Drew, I can understand your sentiment but it does not appear that has happened, at least not yet.
Oh, I think it has
.
Condition, configuration, or the name of the company has nothing to do with it. Davenports were actually quite decent guns.
English and European standards for usefulness do not apply here, when it's "American Classic" being considered. Seems you would understand that, Ted.
JR
John,
The post was NOT about "American Classics", it was a topic which questioned if the term "Classic" and "American Gun" should be used in the same sentence. You would have to make it back to the original post to see that.
One thing I perceive very clearly is just how useless the typical American gun that was built to the dimensions I described (and, we have all seen, thousands of times) really is when it is compared to what was coming out of Europe in the same time frame. Not all the LC Smiths and Parkers that have been restocked were done because the lousy fitting and design caused the wood to go bad (although, we have to admit, there was plenty of that) some were done just to get dimensions that allowed for someone to hit something flying in front of the gun.
I don't believe anyone here (except, perhaps, you) would begin to speculate on the Davenport I posted a link to being considered a "Classic". But, it falls into the definition you posted. A definition I find a bit broad when we look into what a shotgun is really supposed to do for us.
Best,
Ted
I guess we would be comparing the European gun industry to the American industry. Are the European guns mass produced and distributed to hardware stores to sit on shelves waiting for a buyer or does the European maker wait for someone to come into their “shop” to be measured and fitted for a specific gun that has yet to be built.
I would offer that there were numerous factories churning out guns for the "hardware" store market. They are often referred to here as JABC's. Don't think anyone is calling them classics.
They are often referred to here as JABC's. Don't think anyone is calling them classics.
Indeed.
I guess we would be comparing the European gun industry to the American industry. Are the European guns mass produced and distributed to hardware stores to sit on shelves waiting for a buyer or does the European maker wait for someone to come into their “shop” to be measured and fitted for a specific gun that has yet to be built.
Those nasty Europeans, building guns and then forcing American retailers to stock them on their shelves....
The guns were built to the price point that the American companies wanted. Often with their house brand adorning the gun.
Pete
I would assume/infer that you are saying that any gun that is classified as a hardware store gun can never be considered a classic? Most American built guns would ‘fit’ that description of a mass produced gun that is shipped to a store for sale to the general public. And that is pretty much what Ted was saying.
I would guess we would have to define the term "classic".
Treblig, that's not what I'm saying at all.
I'm saying there were similarities as well as differences between the European and American gun making industries. I am saying that just because it is factory made doesn't mean it can't be considered a "classic" as defined by #3 in 2-piper's post. I am saying that the European gun making industry was far from exclusively "hand made" for a specific customer, as I took your post to be saying.
I have 4 lower grade Foxes, 3 lower grade Remingtons and 4 Piepers, all produced in large factories. Using 2-pipers definition, I consider them all to be well made and representative of a certain type of shotgun...."classics" of their kind if you will.
I tend to define "classic", whether for SxS guns, cars, wood boats, art deco architecture or most anything, as being very representative of a certain time and place. Classic isn't defined by me as valuable, collectable or best quality.
I'm afraid the rest of it becomes a comparison of blondes or redheads which won't get us anywhere. However, for every Parker 16 in the dimensions quoted by our friend from Texas, the same concern built dozens of 12s with 30" full x full choke barrels, that had 3" of drop in the stock, and weighed in excess of 7 3/4 lbs. They were by no means alone, here in the US, in that endeavor, either.
It is difficult to find a gun with those same dimensions built anywhere on the other side of the pond. Because that style of shotgun isn't all that useful.
Ted
Except for the sling swivel and and an open right choke I use a gun like just like that for a rainy day upland gun and a field trial gun. It works great in both those functions. I am fifty-nine and the 7-3/4 pounds is becoming too heavy for my creaky shoulders to carry, even on a sling, but it is very effective in those upland pursuits. A very appropriate configuration for someone that could only afford one quality gun. Say for ducks, geese, deer, rabbits, quail, pheasant, grouse, coyotes, and fox.
As far as 15 x 1-1/4 x 1-7/8 being the only acceptable dimensions for good shooting you, along with tens of thousand of others, have fallen prey to the marketing guys again; "Oh, you need ejectors to be effective," "Oh, you need a high stock to shoot well," "Have to have an over and under to shoot really well," "Oh! Need 32 inch barrels - like Digweed," "Have to have adjustable comb," "34 inch barrels are a must," "Need an adjustable rib," "Need adjustable barrel weights," "Need adjustable trigger pulls," ad infinitum. And those Darnes you (and I) hold in such high esteem were generally stocked in the same dimensions of the Parkers you are disparaging (Pre-WWII). And my AHE20 and BHE16 both have over 2-3/4" drop.
It seems I remember a fairly recent post about you having a Darne restocked to the currently fashionable high stock dimensions. Bet that Darne is the envy of all your trap shooting friends.
And I am not a wearer of suspenders. 185 pounds of rippling muscle does fine with a belt.
A "classic" to me is some object or thing that strikes a note of nostalgia, which pleasantly reminds me of a different time.
Some of the definitions of "classic" I have found are:
1. Of lasting interest or significance
2. Continuously in fashion because of its simple and basic style
3. Having historical associations
4. A typical or traditional example.
In this context I find American doubles, such as Parker, Fox, Smith, and Ithaca to strike the precise nostalgic notes to qualify as classics. Whether or not they are mechanically the best and most advanced tools for the job is totally irrelevant.
Brace yourselves [pun intended].
I'd posit that the quintesential American 'classic' SxS is some iteration of the Stevens 311 in whatever gauge makes you happy, but I'd lean toward a 16.
I'm inclined to side w/canvasback on this one. Ain't semantics wounderful!?
Dang TW! We just about had old Ted cornered and then you come in and call the Stevens a classic!
What's a Stevens?
Mike, I think I was getting close but then your shooting student, Joe Wood, nailed it.
Canvasback, I agree wholeheartedly in what you are saying. But, for the sake of argument, is the European market for firearms the same as the American market? Could the ‘blue-collar’ European simply walk into a hardware store and behind all of the hardware implements see brand new guns to buy off the shelf? Complete with their standard length of pull, DAH, DAC and 28 inch barrels with their standard full and modified chokes?
If the answer is yes to these questions then I have no further argument.
Treblig, I don't know enough about firearms retailing in Europe in the period of 1895 to 1939 to confirm or deny.
I suppose part of the answer might stem from information regarding the percentage of output from manufacturers like FN and Pieper that came to NA vs what stayed in the domestic European market.
A significant producer like Manufrance in France had most of it's production stay in the home market.
We see both lower end guns and the high quality production in both markets today. The lower end in Europe got produced and retailed somehow. Pretty sure they weren't made to order, bespoke guns.
How is the market today? Can the average blue-collar European simply buy a brand new shotgun at any appropriate store?
With the proper licensing of course?
So that makes me curious. Up to now I have been more interested in the makers and the factories rather than the retailers.
I'm curious as to why there is little record of how the lower end was retailed. I don't think simply saying (which I am not saying you are alleging) that the records have been lost in the wars is sufficient. We know lots about life in Europe at that time. There are still people living who would remember good portions of it. PeteM, maybe you can shed a little light?? Or perhaps Gettemans, if and when he sees this.
Anyway, back to the topic. We're right, Ted's wrong. LOL
(No offense intended Ted. Just having fun.)
I think we went off the trail so to speak Canvasback, shame on us.
But that is interesting, how does the average guy living in Europe get a frickin brand new shotgun.
British and European hardware stores and provincial gun shops were also supplied with low grade guns in set dimensions and with minimal finish or engraving, to be used by farmers as tools. A variety of grades fulfilled this need - old gun factory catalogues illustrate them well and price them too.
What's a Stevens?
Like'n to Teddy bOys Mosse'turd shotgun....
British and European hardware stores and provincial gun shops were also supplied with low grade guns in set dimensions and with minimal finish or engraving, to be used by farmers as tools. A variety of grades fulfilled this need - old gun factory catalogues illustrate them well and price them too.
The English never intended farmers to have guns as tools...who you kidding ?.....Yourself
What you're referring to as English and Belgium made hardware guns were junk before they left the hardware store.
Really? I don't understand your post Joe. I'm saying English hardware store guns of low grade are common.
As for the quality comparison between English made 'hardware store guns' and American ones and their respective places in today's market, well, that would be another thread.
Posters were speculating about European hardware store guns, so I wanted to confirm their existence as commonplace at the same time American ones dominated the US domestic scene.
Sorry but you guys never had a wild west....
We had India and Africa. And have you ever been to Northern England in the winter?
We had India and Africa. And have you ever been to Northern England in the winter?
Dig, he's never been out of his mom's basement. At least he doesn't pester her so much since she got him that dial up connection.
Best,
Ted
I'm afraid the rest of it becomes a comparison of blondes or redheads which won't get us anywhere. However, for every Parker 16 in the dimensions quoted by our friend from Texas, the same concern built dozens of 12s with 30" full x full choke barrels, that had 3" of drop in the stock, and weighed in excess of 7 3/4 lbs. They were by no means alone, here in the US, in that endeavor, either.
It is difficult to find a gun with those same dimensions built anywhere on the other side of the pond. Because that style of shotgun isn't all that useful.
Ted
Except for the sling swivel and and an open right choke I use a gun like just like that for a rainy day upland gun and a field trial gun. It works great in both those functions. I am fifty-nine and the 7-3/4 pounds is becoming too heavy for my creaky shoulders to carry, even on a sling, but it is very effective in those upland pursuits. A very appropriate configuration for someone that could only afford one quality gun. Say for ducks, geese, deer, rabbits, quail, pheasant, grouse, coyotes, and fox.
As far as 15 x 1-1/4 x 1-7/8 being the only acceptable dimensions for good shooting you, along with tens of thousand of others, have fallen prey to the marketing guys again; "Oh, you need ejectors to be effective," "Oh, you need a high stock to shoot well," "Have to have an over and under to shoot really well," "Oh! Need 32 inch barrels - like Digweed," "Have to have adjustable comb," "34 inch barrels are a must," "Need an adjustable rib," "Need adjustable barrel weights," "Need adjustable trigger pulls," ad infinitum. And those Darnes you (and I) hold in such high esteem were generally stocked in the same dimensions of the Parkers you are disparaging (Pre-WWII). And my AHE20 and BHE16 both have over 2-3/4" drop.
It seems I remember a fairly recent post about you having a Darne restocked to the currently fashionable high stock dimensions. Bet that Darne is the envy of all your trap shooting friends.
And I am not a wearer of suspenders. 185 pounds of rippling muscle does fine with a belt.
My specs on gunstocks are no-where near that high-I was just looking for 1 1/2 DAC and 2 1/2 DAH, but, that seems to be a lot to ask of the typical old Yank double for some reason. The Darne is a 26" barreled, straight stocked, cyl/improved cyl grouse gun, and the notion of using it for trap is laughable.
It was restocked with a straight grip because thats what I like-and someone sawed about 6" off the original stock. That stock went into a wood stove in St. Etienne, France as that is all it was suitable for.
I haven't been brainwashed by anybody. And I don't try to make antique gun dimensions suit my shooting. You want to do that, by all means feel free.
One question though-does that 3" drop Parker of yours have a carridge bolt through the head of the stock, holding it together?
A lot of 'em do. Just wondering.
Best,
Ted
British and European hardware stores and provincial gun shops were also supplied with low grade guns in set dimensions and with minimal finish or engraving, to be used by farmers as tools. A variety of grades fulfilled this need - old gun factory catalogues illustrate them well and price them too.
Thanks for clarifying that, Dig. Would you happen to know if it was similar in Europe? I'm thinking France, Germany, Austria, Benelux and the Nordic countries.
This is a lot of fine hair splitting.
My 2 cents: Are all American made SXS a classic? No. But I would submit that the well known brands manufactured from the late 1890's to the 1930's fit that bill pretty well.
If your SXS was made during that time frame and if;
It is a gun that you saved up for or sold something of value because of an irresistible attraction;
It is one of the first ones you admire from your collection;
It is your favorite shooter;
& you think it looks just as good, if not better than your high school prom date;
then it could, under this subjective standard, qualify as a classic.
I know my Sterlingworth and LC Smith do.
British and European hardware stores and provincial gun shops were also supplied with low grade guns in set dimensions and with minimal finish or engraving, to be used by farmers as tools. A variety of grades fulfilled this need - old gun factory catalogues illustrate them well and price them too.
Small bore: I own a 12b Charles Hellis, 'The Reliable'. This gun is a boxlock with only border engraving. Is this piece an example of a farmer grade or hardware store gun that England would have produced? How can one tell a farmer or hardware grade from a gamekeeper's grade, if indeed there is such distinction? This particular Hellis gun is very well made and the internals are robust and finished to a high level. If this gun is a farmer grade, in my opinion it far surpasses the hardware/farmer grade produced in America, such as a Stevens SxS. (addendum: I just looked at this gun and it actually has NO engraving....I was mistaken when I said it was border engraved).
You can say that but I can't.
Actually, even the inexpensive guns made by the likes of Greener and Scott and Bonehill etc were sound, well engineered and put together. A lot carry the names of hardware store (ironmongers in British).
Ferlach gun catalogs from before WW1 are full of inexpensive farmers' guns.
With kind regards,
Jani
British and European hardware stores and provincial gun shops were also supplied with low grade guns in set dimensions and with minimal finish or engraving, to be used by farmers as tools. A variety of grades fulfilled this need - old gun factory catalogues illustrate them well and price them too.
Small bore: I own a 12b Charles Hellis, 'The Reliable'. This gun is a boxlock with only border engraving. Is this piece an example of a farmer grade or hardware store gun that England would have produced? How can one tell a farmer or hardware grade from a gamekeeper's grade, if indeed there is such distinction? This particular Hellis gun is very well made and the internals are robust and finished to a high level. If this gun is a farmer grade, in my opinion it far surpasses the hardware/farmer grade produced in America, such as a Stevens SxS. (addendum: I just looked at this gun and it actually has NO engraving....I was mistaken when I said it was border engraved).
I agree totally with Buzz, even the 'Ironmonger" level guns built overseas are excellent examples and in my opinion far outclass the American equivalent for, what is described in this thread as, a dedicated UPLAND GAME gun. The French, German, Belgium and especially the English gun and their fit and finish and polish are far and away better than any American built gun. But, for the one gun for everything with fur and feathers in which the American gun was built for, I'll take the American built gun.
Great thread Mike, good information now that our friends from overseas are posting.
Yeah Treb, having said English guns are superior in the fit and finish dept, primarily on the farmer/hardware/ironmonger grade guns, I must admit I am very fond and happy with many American guns. They are clearly utilitarian and most, if not all of the 'classic' American guns hold a special place in my heart. And along this line, I have shot for years Browing Supers (which an American mind invented) and own two Model 21 Winchester shotguns that I thoroughly enjoy, admiring as well as shooting, and believe me, and God willing, none of these guns are leaving my stewardship anytime soon.
You can say that but I can't.
Don't be so tough on yourself. Someone else will be along to take care of that.
You can say that but I can't.
Don't be so tough on yourself. Someone else will be along to take care of that.
Oh I don't know ... buzz talked straight opinion about the guns. I wonder if he could characterize folks who don't know better as turd-polishers and get away unscathed?
Small Bore, can you answer the question buzz asked about his Hellis "Reliable" and whether there's a difference between "farmer/hardware" and "gamekeeper" grades of English-made guns?
As for "classic" as an adjective for some old American-made SxSs, the dictionary and personal definitions offered here don't seem to me to stretch the word too far.
Jay
'Farmer', 'hardware and 'gamekeeper' are not recognisable, named types. They are generalist terms to refer to lower quality, plainly finished guns. For example, Greener sold 'Needham' badged hammer guns in 1891 for £3. 15s. 0d.
Listed as a 'Model 501' and described as a 'plain and sound weapon' 'Made from English material throughout, it is the cheapest gun made that can be recommended as reliable'.
Buzz,
Can you post a couple photos of your Hellis Reliable?
Love to see it...
Redoak: I'm a clown at posting of photos on this site. I've done it a couple of times but it took me hours and I sort of stumbled in to it. I can email photos if someone who's not a clown at this is interested in posting them.
Thank you Jay for posting the photos for me. I took this 'farm implement' grade Hellis to my gunsmith for lubricating the internals. I was shocked with what we found when he took the gun to pieces. All of the internals were polished to a very high level. All of the springs, including the top lever spring were of the leaf spring variety and very robust. With all this in mind, I think the British boxlock is an excellent value......this gun is somewhere in the approx $1500-$2000 price range (or at least i wouldn't take any less than that). Try buying a vintage 'classic' American gun made as well as this gun for that money.
Buzz,
Love the look of your Hellis Reliable, thanks for providing the photos, and thanks to Jay for posting them.
I know little about the American Classics, but your Hellis appears to be an ideal field gun to me. I have an A. Sanders BLNE 2" 12 that looks almost identical, including the lined borders, that weighs 4# 15 oz. A near perfect grouse & woodcock gun, IMHO.
I love fine, tight English scroll, but I prefer a plain gun like your Hellis, to one that is haphazardly engraved.
And I agree with you that the British (Birmingham) boxlocks are an excellent value, provided they are in reasonable condition.
BTW, I thought that those lines along the edges of the action are called border engraving... Or is there another name for them?
This Hellis would equate to a Webley proprietary grade 3 in quality, being supplied at a cost of around £18.00 in 1914, or £14.00 as a non-ejector. Charles Osbourne provided a very similar gun in 1900 for £13.00. They were all well made and properly fitted internally but with no frills. History has shown them to be very serviceable and long lived as well as being well balanced and engineered, pleasant shooting guns.
Haven't we split all the hairs that are necessary here? If the gun was American made, no matter the gun, it should be subject to that criteria as to whether or not it is an "American classic". If the questions is "can any American shotgun be considered a 'classic'", well then, that is an entirely different question, is it not?
Haven't we split all the hairs that are necessary here? If the gun was American made, no matter the gun, it should be subject to that criteria as to whether or not it is an "American classic". If the questions is "can any American shotgun be considered a 'classic'", well then, that is an entirely different question, is it not?
Looking at that Hellis likely made any rationally thinking individuals forget all about classic American guns.
Nice, servicable, and classic gun, Buzz.
Best,
Ted
Buzz that is a nice gun.
As are my Parker VHs. Any rational person would recognize them as well built, nice, serviceable guns also. But some get picked off even by the hype written a hundred and twenty years ago by the nineteenth century English marketing guys.
Though Ted believes "classic" is used too loosely, the quoted definitions that apply here show the term pertains to how a group of interested people perceives objects rather than to particulars of objects themselves. It's clear those definitions fit many American-made guns, but it's less clear to me that "classic" applies to similar English guns -- though their build quality may be equal or better -- because I've rarely heard them described as "classic".
Small Bore and others, is there a significant constituency that uses considers that grade of Brit gun "classic"?
Jay
Though Ted believes the term is used too loosely, the quoted definitions of "classic" that apply here show the term pertains to how a group of interested people perceives objects rather than to particulars of objects themselves. It's clear those definitions fit many American-made guns, but it's less clear to me that "classic" applies to similar English guns -- though their build quality may be equal or better -- because I've rarely heard them described as "classic".
Small Bore, is there a significant constituency that uses the term for that grade of Brit gun?
Jay
Chas,
Are we seeking enlightenment on guns, or words at this point-I ask because the English and Us are common folk separated by language!
Best,
Ted
Edited my post above before seeing Ted's last.
Ted, hasn't this thread from the first post been about how we use the word? Since the thread meandered into Brit guns, I'm wondering about how that bit of the language that divides us works for them and their guns.
Jay (Chas?)
Buzz that is a nice gun.
As are my Parker VHs. Any rational person would recognize them as well built, nice, serviceable guns also. But some get picked off even by the hype written a hundred and twenty years ago by the nineteenth century English marketing guys.
Didn't you report to us that you were "taken" when you bought that Parker VH 12 with all the drop?
As far as hype, I can report that I've had gunfittings on two different continents, by guys who spoke two different languages, and neither of them suggested that 3" of DAH with a 13" LOP was going to be effective for me.
Pretty sure neither guy read any English marketing from the turn of the last century, and I know for sure one guy wouldn't have put any stock in it, if he did.
Best,
Ted
Edited my post above before seeing Ted's last.
Ted, hasn't this thread from the first post been about how we use the word? Since the thread meandered into Brit guns, I'm wondering about how that bit of the language that divides us works for them and their guns.
Jay (Chas?)
I like to honor the dog you had engraved into the model 21, Jay. Been calling you Chas in honor of him for a long time.
If it bugs you, I'll stop.
I wouldn't expect an English definition of a word to mirror the use or nuance of said word, here.
Best,
Ted
Buzz that is a nice gun.
As are my Parker VHs. Any rational person would recognize them as well built, nice, serviceable guns also. But some get picked off even by the hype written a hundred and twenty years ago by the nineteenth century English marketing guys.
I like Parker shotguns too, Mike! This Hellis gun has 2 1/2" chambers, ejectors, 28" barrels and weighs about 6 1/2 lbs. A bit heavy for a Grouse gun, at least for me. What do your Parker VH 12 bores weigh?
Parker Executive: "Damn, sales are slow, what's up with that?"
Marketing guy: "Everybody that can afford our guns has one. And you build them so well they last forever so there is no replacement market."
Parker Executive: "Well, that is why we sold so many."
Marketing guy: "I had a thought last night while I was dealing Three Card Monte. What if we started telling everybody that those Damascus barrels were dangerous with the modern slightly higher pressure shells?"
Parker Excutive: "That would be dishonest! I couldn't do that!"
Marketing guy: "No problem Boss! That is my job!"
-----------------
So someone spends half a day and $300 with a gunfitter.
Gunfitter: "14 x 1-1/2 x 2-1/2."
Client: "What! That is what I have been shooting since I was 12 - same dimensions as the Remington 1100 I started out with. You don't know what you are doing. My buddy got a gunfitting and he was prescribed 15-3/32 x 1-7/32 x 1-51/64 x 9/32 castoff-toe x 35/64 castoff-heel x 1-125/128 pitch. And his fitter had an English accent so of course he knew what he was doing!"
Gunfitter thinks: "Note to self; In the future do not prescribe dimensions that are standard, out of the box. Must be exotic. Also work on developing an English accent"
----------------------------------------
My Parker VHs with original factory buttplates (several) all have at least 14"LOP except for one.
Anyone that believes 14 x 1-3/4 x 2-3/4 can't be shot well never took the time to shoot a flat of shells through a quality gun stocked to those dimensions.
The latest marketing hype is manifest in the new trend for 16" LOP on bird guns. You will see it creeping in slowly. The next thing you know Ted will be extolling the advantages of the 2" extension he had fitted to his custom stocked Darne.
The term 'classic' is totally subjective.
Some people consider the Morris Marina a 'classic car' because it is old and there is an owners club. I had one in 1979 and thought it a total POS and still do.
Who is to say who is right?
The term 'classic' is totally subjective.
Some people consider the Morris Marina a 'classic car' because it is old and there is an owners club. I had one in 1979 and thought it a total POS and still do.
Who is to say who is right?
Well yes, subjective is assumed. I'm not asking the consequently meaningless question of who's right, but whether there's a notable number of people who consider a English gun of the Hellis "Reliable" grade to be "classic". Or maybe you're suggesting that some do, but your opinion of them is more like your opinion of a Morris Marina?
Jay
Wonder how a Volvo would have stood up to that??
I like Parker shotguns too, Mike! This Hellis gun has 2 1/2" chambers, ejectors, 28" barrels and weighs about 6 1/2 lbs. A bit heavy for a Grouse gun, at least for me. What do your Parker VH 12 bores weigh?
Forgot to answer your question Buzz:
The two VH12/32s weigh about 7-3/4 pounds, both 2 frames. Right or wrong I shoot 2-3/4" factory loads in them. 1-1/8oz, 3DE
The VH12/30s weigh 7-1/2 pounds. All 2 frames. Factory 2-3/4"
DH12/28" Damascus 6-3/4 pounds, 1 frame. Low pressure reloads, 1-1/8oz
VH16/28", O Frame - 5-3/4 pounds. Factory 2-3/4" 1oz, 2-1/2DE.
VHE16/26", O Frame - 5-3/4 pounds, factory 2-3/4" 1oz, 2-1/2DE.
BHE16/26", O frame, steel barreled - 5-3/4 pounds, factory 2-3/4" 1oz, 2-1/2DE.
VH16/28, 1 Frame - 6-1/2 pounds, factory 2-3/4" 1oz, 2-1/2DE.
AHE20/26, O Frame steel barreled, 5-3/4 pounds, factory 2-3/4" 7/8oz 1200fps loads
Also I have reloaded 1-1/4 ounce pheasant loads for the steel barreled 12 ga Parkers.
I am shooting factory shells in most of these guns that are of a higher pressure than the factory loads concurrent with the guns' manufacture. I have measured wall thicknesses of barrels and chambers and am satisfied. If I blow my fingers off it will be my fault.
Buzz do you think any of my sixteens are light enough to make grouse guns? I have never been ruffed grouse hunting but the sixteen 1oz 2-1/2DE load was plenty for the Sharptails in Montana.
Thanks Mike. Absolutely your 16b Parker shotguns would be the perfect and classic grouse gun. I like mine to be 6lbs or a bit less. You definitely need to give grouse hunting a try with your Brittany spaniels. I think you would love it.....it reminds me somewhat of quail hunting in a dense mesquite thicket. FUN!!
That is fun. Amazes me how the bobwhite always puts any available tree between me and him.
Have you found a bird dog puppy yet Buzz?
I left out a gun:
DHE16/32", 7-1/4 pounds. Factory 2-3/4", 1oz, 2-1/2DE
Grouse are the same way in that they are uncanny at placing an obstruction between you and them. With pointing dogs 2 hunters is best as one might get a shot. I've never hunted with flushing dogs but have been told the grouse are more worried re a moving dog than the hunter and therefore a single hunter can get a shot. In terms of a pup, a good friend from Alabama gave me a Pointer pup from outstanding breeding. And I can only handle 1 pup at a time, so I may wait on a Brittany pup til next year. Best, Buzz
Congratulations on your new bird dog puppy!
Best,
Mike
No, not at all. I just think the term is so subjective that it can legitimately be used by one person on an item that to another person it would not fit.
To me the Anson & Deeley action is a 'classic' in that it was a real design innovation that changed the market and has endured. Matters not who made it.
The Westley 'drop-lock is a 'classic'. But is the Field 'Gun of the Future'? That is also old, but was failure can it be a 'classic' on the fact it is old or dismissed because it was failure?
For guns, I'd reserve the term in my own usage to guns and models that were typical of type and successful in their time:
Beesley 1880 self opener
Grant & Hodges side-lever HG
Holland 'Royal'
Baker 'Climax'
WR 'Droplock'
Greener Facile Princeps,
etc
A hard one to make a real axe for though.
CLASSIC .... (adjective)- judged over a period of time to be of the highest quality and outstanding of its kind.
(noun) - a work of art of recognized and established value.
The Winchester model 12 is a classic.
Haven't we split all the hairs that are necessary here? If the gun was American made, no matter the gun, it should be subject to that criteria as to whether or not it is an "American classic". If the questions is "can any American shotgun be considered a 'classic'", well then, that is an entirely different question, is it not?
Looking at that Hellis likely made any rationally thinking individuals forget all about
classic American guns.
Ah, so then you agree.
Re: "...oxymorons?"
"... close hunting English Pointer"
I'll take one of my "Classic American" Lefever's over any gun with a frame that resembles a Cigar Box any day of the week, thank you. I will admit that I have a Birmingham built J P Clabrough "Sidelock", while not a "Best" by any stretch of the imagination is a very good shooter which I shoot exceptionally well. I have never measured its drop, but it was built I believe for the American market so does not seem that much straighter. It is one of the few guns I own with cast off most Americans seem to be straight. Of my several Lefevers I only have one on which the drop is excessive for me, & its a very late one, undoubtedly cobbled up at Ithaca. The rest I shoot as well as I shoot about anything.
I've always had a spot reserved for a good 20g Lefever. I may have to find a project gun and build it up to get one in good enough shape for my liking.
Re: "...oxymorons?"
"... close hunting English Pointer"
I thought this entire thread was an oxymoron...
Re: "...oxymorons?"
"... close hunting English Pointer"
You got that part right! I've got 8 English Pointers and really only 1.5 of them is suitable for the Grouse woods.
I thought this entire thread was an oxymoron...
+1 What started out as a thread on AMERICAN guns degenerated into something comparable to a couple of old women arguing over which laundry detergent is better. Does your wife use OXYdol or Tide jOe?
I thought this entire thread was an oxymoron...
What started out as a thread on AMERICAN guns degenerated into something comparable to a couple of old women arguing over which laundry detergent is better. Does your wife use OXYdol or Tide jOe?
Pretty sure she uses Go-Jo on his tooth....
Best,
Ted
Started out oxymorons, turned into just plain morons.
OWD
Yea, but you shoulda' been here last year when that one idiot was looking for contact info for Gene Hill, so he could chat about one of his guns. I think it was the same guy who didn't know anything about intercepting sears on boxlocks-You can't make this stuff up....
Best,
Ted
Like I said, just plain morons.
OWD
Like I said, just plain morons.
OWD
Ted can't help it...
classic--Is a well defined term!!" of recognized value","serving as a standard of excellence". We use the term to loosely. I think we tend to use" classic"as a narrow definition,which it is not, because many of the same thing can be called "classic" and all aspects of that object may not be classic.
"British and European hardware stores and provincial gun shops were also supplied with low grade guns in set dimensions and with minimal finish or engraving, to be used by farmers as tools. A variety of grades fulfilled this need - old gun factory catalogues illustrate them well and price them too."
This Reilly ad just appeared on e-bay from "Kelly's Guide To Landed Gentry" 1882. Note 'Keeper's Guns'.
Decided to suck it and see so I rung them up for a subscription. I was gobsmacked when they said 1/10 of an acre in the AZ desert wasn't "Landed" so I was browned off and apologized for my clanger
.....they said 1/10 of an acre in the AZ desert wasn't "Landed" so I was browned off and apologized for my clanger
SRH
